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Almost time for my semi-annual re-read of the whole series. Really looking forward to getting to read Red Country again. Only read it once at release
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Aug 6, 2015 22:53
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So as someone who enjoyed the 6 First Law books, I should read the Shattered Sea stuff, right? The whole "youth adult" thing doesn't sound too appealing but I have to imagine they are worth reading by any Abercrombie fan, right? On a side note, I also saw the series has a map, which is a legitimate problem I have with the trilogy. I mean what type of self-respecting fantasy series doesn't have a map? How was anyone supposed to understand the scale of how far away something like Dagoska and the Ghurkish invasion was without a map? Or just how much of a journey it is through the Old Empire?
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Aug 10, 2015 00:24
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maps are for autists and shattered sea only has a map so its really obvious we're dealing with post-apoc earth
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Aug 10, 2015 01:01
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So It Goes posted:So as someone who enjoyed the 6 First Law books, I should read the Shattered Sea stuff, right? The whole "youth adult" thing doesn't sound too appealing but I have to imagine they are worth reading by any Abercrombie fan, right?
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Aug 10, 2015 01:56
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dongsbot 9000 posted:maps are for autists and shattered sea only has a map so its really obvious we're dealing with post-apoc earth Its a fantasy book series about wizards and swordfighting and barbarians and magic and poo poo, set in a literally made-up world with made-up names and stuff, but you apparently draw the line at having a map. Not sure what one is supposed to make of someone having to defend "Dagoska" from the "Ghurkish" who would then attack the "Union" after crossing the "Circle Sea". I couldn't imagine reading AOIAF series without a map of Westeros and trying to understand, say, the ramifications of the Wall falling and how it would eventually affect Kings Landing, or just how soon it would take Dany to reach Westeros if she ever actually began travel to it. e: vvvv So edgy. So It Goes fucked around with this message at 04:13 on Aug 10, 2015 |
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Aug 10, 2015 02:04
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wow
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Aug 10, 2015 02:50
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So It Goes posted:Its a fantasy book series about wizards and swordfighting and barbarians and magic and poo poo, set in a literally made-up world with made-up names and stuff, but you apparently draw the line at having a map. Not sure what one is supposed to make of someone having to defend "Dagoska" from the "Ghurkish" who would then attack the "Union" after crossing the "Circle Sea". Lmao
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Aug 10, 2015 06:44
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I wouldn't expect maps in Abercrombie books. Here are his words on the subject prior to any First Law stand alone books: quote:The characters often don’t know what’s going on – they don’t have a conveniently accurate map to hand, why should the reader? If you take a look at his blog, his view is more nuanced than that one line, but he does seem to have a less-is-more mentality when it comes to what he feeds to the reader. The maps he eventually includes make sense looking at the books from that perspective. At the very beginning of the Best Served Cold, Monza would certainly have had a mostly accurate map at hand. Gorst probably saw a map of the battle lines every morning in The Heroes. Shy and Lamb may have had access to a map while traveling with the Fellowship. Yarvi certainly had access to maps in the second and third books of the Shattered Sea trilogy, and while he probably would have shared them with Koll in Half a War, he had no reason to share them them with Thorn or Brand in Half the World. I really only like maps if they are done well and they serve a purpose. There are too many books out there with crappy maps that feel tacked on or where the scale of the world doesn't matter, such as in the Wheel of TIme.
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Aug 10, 2015 07:22
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Basically Joe was worried about people going "but hang on a minute, if it only took them x days to get to y town, how did they get an entire army to z town so fast?!" He also didn't like the idea of people opening up a book and seeing the map and feeling like it was homework, like they were going to get quizzed on it. But obviously he gave into the map love because every book since has one. Although it's been bugging me for ages that the map in Half A World(2) seems completely different from how I remember the map in Half a King(1)...but I haven't bothered to check. So It Goes posted:So as someone who enjoyed the 6 First Law books, I should read the Shattered Sea stuff, right? The whole "youth adult" thing doesn't sound too appealing but I have to imagine they are worth reading by any Abercrombie fan, right? Although to be fair, there seems to be way more swearing and blood in Half A World so far. Ravenfood posted:There are a few character beats that'll be familiar to First Law fans, but I liked it. I mean I know people compared Shadikshirram to Cosca and I compared HaK to BSC, but: Thorn is basically a less lovely Ferro, the Duke's betrayal of the Empress was a lot like Monza and/or Yarvi's experience, Brand bashed a head in and threw a guy of a ledge which is basically Logen killing Bethod but split into two.
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Aug 10, 2015 09:46
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What I really liked about the Shattered Sea books is the way Abercrombie is gradually rewriting his earlier books in shorter, more concise ways. I've never seen an author go from padding out his books so much to such efficient writing. Having said that, I feel like Half a War was the weakest book in the series, which is weird because endings are usually his best writing. Not to say I didn't enjoy the hell out of it. Did Yarvi kill Skifr's family? Was that intentionally ambiguous?
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Aug 11, 2015 23:39
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Padding? Seriously? That's always the opposite of what I associated Abercrombie with. (Although it probably helps I was coming off ASOIAF and an attempt to read LOTR.) Surely you don't mean the original trilogy? I just got to the end of Half The World and re: character similarities, I guess Yarvi is just Bayaz now, huh? Was looking forward to Half A War with no idea what to expect, even from the POVs, but I'm a little worried given all the negativity I've seen here. 
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Aug 11, 2015 23:47
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I feel like every book was longer than it needed to be until Half A King.
02-6611-0142-1 fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Aug 12, 2015 |
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Aug 12, 2015 00:35
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The only one I felt was padded out to any extent was Red Country, but even there it wasn't terrible.
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Aug 12, 2015 01:13
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:I feel like every book was longer than it needed to be until Half A King.
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Aug 12, 2015 01:59
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I liked Half a King a lot more than the other two. A lot of that has to do with Yarvi as a protagonist; I really enjoyed him and would have liked a full Yarvi trilogy. I couldn't manage to care much about the more "standard" protagonists of the other books, and their less morally ambiguous mindsets felt like a wasted chance to me for point of view. But then I love Abercrombie for characters like Logen, Jezal and Glokta, so I'll now look forward to the adult books continuing.
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Aug 12, 2015 06:04
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:Did Yarvi kill Skifr's family? Was that intentionally ambiguous? To be fair, Yarvi admitted to being wracked with guilt over Brand's death but never mention Skifr's family in his monologue, so I'm inclined to think that he was honest about that being coincidentally providential for him.
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Aug 12, 2015 09:47
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:I feel like every book was longer than it needed to be until Half A King. What would you have cut? That's not a complaint I really hear much about Abercrombie.
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Aug 12, 2015 20:18
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His pacing has genuinely improved as he's written more - I think the trilogy would have worked as two books. The excursion to the other continent and the defense of Dagoska could have been done quicker, not sure if we needed the details of two wars either but at least those set up for stuff. I haven't read the Half a Thing books so I can't comment there.
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Aug 12, 2015 20:22
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:The excursion to the other continent and the defense of Dagoska could have been done quicker I felt like both of those kind of flew by. Especially if you compare the trip to the Edge of the World to Frodo's and Sam's trip to Mordor or any of a million other epic quests. They both kind of seem like large tropes almost miniaturized. Not to mention the fact that all of the scenes in them achieve a ton of great characterization for a half dozen characters at a time. 
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Aug 12, 2015 21:22
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Megachile posted:I felt like both of those kind of flew by. Especially if you compare the trip to the Edge of the World to Frodo's and Sam's trip to Mordor or any of a million other epic quests. They both kind of seem like large tropes almost miniaturized. Not to mention the fact that all of the scenes in them achieve a ton of great characterization for a half dozen characters at a time. Don't get me wrong - I loved the books and those segments just the same, that's just what I'd trim if I had trimming was the goal. I don't think there's a problem as stated.
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Aug 12, 2015 21:26
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Sunsetaware posted:I liked Half a King a lot more than the other two. A lot of that has to do with Yarvi as a protagonist; I really enjoyed him and would have liked a full Yarvi trilogy. I couldn't manage to care much about the more "standard" protagonists of the other books, and their less morally ambiguous mindsets felt like a wasted chance to me for point of view. But then I love Abercrombie for characters like Logen, Jezal and Glokta, so I'll now look forward to the adult books continuing.
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Aug 12, 2015 23:51
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02-6611-0142-1 posted:Did Yarvi kill Skifr's family? Was that intentionally ambiguous? Absolutely, yes. Like Mother Wexler said, what possible reason did she have to re-involve Skifr? Also, she didn't know where Skifr was going at the end of book two and Yarvi did. It's really the same theme running through all his books, nobody with power is remotely trustworthy.
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Aug 13, 2015 20:33
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Old Kentucky Shark posted:Intentionally ambiguous. What possible reason do we have to give him the benefit of the doubt?
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Aug 13, 2015 20:36
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Peztopiary posted:What possible reason do we have to give him the benefit of the doubt? Well, he clearly becomes attached to people. Many (two?) of the scenes involving Yarvi and Sumael showed he wasn't made of stone after all. I think he truly cared for Brand as well, as he let him freely leave at the end of Half the World without trying to coerce him to stay on as his helmsman. Same thing with Koll. I don't think he'd have killed Skifr's family when a simple request would probably have worked. I think it was made intentionally ambiguous. Perhaps it was an accident and Skifr assumed it was an assassination attempt. I don't remember seeing anything in the text that gave any solid hints.
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Aug 14, 2015 02:17
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Started Half A War. Something about the writing seems off from the last two, but I'm not sure quite how to explain it. It's also a little wearisome that we get another round of teenage protagonists who will each have their various reactions to the violence and politicking of the world, and it makes me those crave characters who have already done this poo poo. On the other hand, it is still fun seeing the previous protagonists in a new light. And this exchange I just got up to was the highlight of the book so far: quote:‘We haven’t had a chance to talk,’ said Blue Jenner. 
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Aug 15, 2015 20:04
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Got up to another part that has me reflecting on a rarely mentioned strength of Joe Abercrombie's writing. Maybe it's just me, but for all the violence and politics and moral ambiguity he sometimes taps into some minor social psychology, with personal and incredibly relatable things that I've never really seen put into words. Just got up to the part in Half A War where Koll tells Rin that he's chosen his work over their love and she reacts with little emotion. quote:He would’ve preferred her to break down in tears, or come at him in a rage, or beg him to think again. He’d worked out a cowardly little plan to twist any of those back on her. But this chilly indifference he had no answer to. I had a similar reaction to the part in The Heroes when Craw says goodbye to his crew. Probably too long to post a quote of, but it's this long sequence about how saying goodbye is never like it is in your head. I don't think I've ever had a goodbye that wasn't disappointing and it was so satisfying to see that feeling captured on the page. There's also how wonderfully awkward the sex is in his books. I appreciate how fumbling and un-Hollywood he writes it, even in his supposedly YA books.
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Aug 23, 2015 10:27
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VagueRant posted:Got up to another part that has me reflecting on a rarely mentioned strength of Joe Abercrombie's writing. Maybe it's just me, but for all the violence and politics and moral ambiguity he sometimes taps into some minor social psychology, with personal and incredibly relatable things that I've never really seen put into words. I love how Koll mirrors Brand in many ways. When Brand finally gets with Thorn he almost immediately starts to feel "smothered." Which of course is really just him suddenly realizing he's accountable to another person other than just himself or his sister. He's going from being a "man" in the sense of being a warrior to actually having to grow up and be a man. Abercrombie is really good at that. Even when you get what you want, you still have to work hard at maintaining it. God I really love his writing. UncleMonkey fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Aug 23, 2015 |
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Aug 23, 2015 23:02
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He still does it in a way that has happy moments too, it's not relentlessly bleak or anything. On the other hand, maybe people should disregard what I say because I am an idiot who, until yesterday when I trawled through the thread looking for posts on HaK and HtW, absolutely didn't pick up on the whole elves = modern day humans thing. All of that flew right over my head. And after reading that, suddenly I'm at the chapters in Half A War where Skifr is taking them into Strokom and I'm like "oh, they're not actually magic beans!" which is a narrative I totally would've accepted. And I'm honestly wondering how I would've pictured the entire descriptions of the ruined city and the arsenal and everything - because I don't think I would've twigged at all. That's the strange thing about a written medium, I guess. And also about being an idiot! I even had to go back to the fight with the horse people in book 2 because I somehow did not get that AT ALL that Skifr was using a gun. 
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Aug 24, 2015 09:44
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I read Half a King, then read Half a World several months later, and any relationship between Skifr and Yarvi totally escaped me. Don't have the books handy for a re-read right now so can anyone spoil it for me? What does Skifr have to do with Yarvi?
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Aug 24, 2015 10:10
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I don't think they ever explain how they met. I guess Yarvi just used his political connections and befriended her because she'd obviously be useful. I blazed through to the end of Half A War and I enjoyed it, but yeah, probably the weakest in the trilogy. It is kind of interesting that the first one - Half A King - is the one that felt most like a YA book, the most restrained with regards to blood, sex and swearing. But he kinda gave up after that and I think HtW and HaW were standard bloody-loving-Abercrombie. (If anyone is on the fence, which I guess a lot of people are - judging from how little discussion there is of the trilogy!) I'm a little irked there was no explanation of the power being on in Strokom, or what the hell Thorn's bangle was. I also think the very last chapter could have been cut, and the book would've been stronger for it. It seemed a weird place to end. My biggest issue was with Bright Yilling. He gets namedropped at the end of HtW and then just has like, one scene in the intro where he kills some people. And the rest of the book is people (including himself) talking about what a badass he is. Constant telling, rather than showing. And he never really gets any backstory or depth, and I never quite understood how good of a swordsman he even was. He's all set up and no payoff. That's why Uthil's death felt so cheap and unearned. Don't get me wrong, one of the greatest warriors ever anticlimactically slipping on a stone is fine, that's some quality Abercrombie, but when it was against this Yilling guy, it was just...unsatisfying even at being unsatisfying.
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Aug 24, 2015 14:12
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Joe just announced Sharp Edges, a book of First Law world short stories, out in April.
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Aug 24, 2015 16:10
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April was a few months ago silly, he must mean October. 
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Aug 24, 2015 16:18
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It'll come out April 1st and be all about how Bayaz is justified.
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Aug 25, 2015 07:06
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joe getting back to the first law world is pretty much the best thing that could happen to fantasy he lists the short stories included here: http://www.joeabercrombie.com/2015/08/24/sharp-ends/ being as 4 out of 13 of these stories are about 'Shevedieh' and 'Javre', pretty solid bet the next novel we see out of him will be focused on these two
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Aug 25, 2015 07:37
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After reading Tough Times all Over, I can't help think that the Javre/Whirrun story will be anything but awesome.
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Aug 25, 2015 07:39
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Suxpool posted:joe getting back to the first law world is pretty much the best thing that could happen to fantasy Is Abercrombie just rewriting a Samurai Jack episode with one of those?
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Aug 25, 2015 07:51
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Suxpool posted:joe getting back to the first law world is pretty much the best thing that could happen to fantasy quote:A Beautiful Bastard: The Union army may be full of bastards, but there’s only one big enough to think he can save the day single-handed when the Gurkish come calling: the incomparable Colonel Sand dan Glokta.  Also, Abercrombie's TV blog: I approve.
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Sep 2, 2015 05:56
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Suxpool posted:joe getting back to the first law world is pretty much the best thing that could happen to fantasy Nah; they're gonna be big side characters but not POV leads. quote:Freedom: Being an absolutely true account of the liberation of the town of Averstock from the grip of the incorrigible rebel menace by the famous Nicomo Cosca. So this is going to be his biographer's cleaned-up version of a massacre. Can't wait to read it.
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Sep 2, 2015 17:44
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Suxpool posted:joe getting back to the first law world is pretty much the best thing that could happen to fantasy quote:Made a Monster: After years of bloodshed, the idealistic chieftain Bethod is desperate to bring peace to the North. There’s only one obstacle left – his own lunatic champion. Can't wait.
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Sep 8, 2015 01:07
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VagueRant posted:Is it weird that I thought Half a King was better than Best Served Cold? A much better exploration of the emptiness of revenge? Best Served Cold bails on the emptiness. After pages and pages of monologues about how pointless it all is, and how she's just as bad, and how this isn't solving anything, and in fact makes things worse, it turned out the problem was she hadn't committed enough revenge murder. Once she'd revenge murdered the final, largest guy, she could get his crown, a duchy and start to rule. It's way closer to a happy ending than any book with that much cynical soliloquising should have. It's a pity, because while I didn't especially like the ending for the First Law Trilogy (it felt like a three book journey to get to what should have been a jumping off point) I admired his commitment to it.
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Sep 16, 2015 04:01
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