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This goon clan is the best. Yesterday I joined up to do vault runs with some people, having never done one before, and everyone was super helpful. In addition, there was a guy who joined us who was so newbie he didn't have any void keys to go with us, so the whole group went to Earth for a few minutes to get him some keys so he could come along. GG
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Aug 15, 2015 13:48
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SSNeoman posted:http://www.techopedia.com/definition/27042/degenerate-strategy That link tries to make it specifically about repetitive gameplay but then immediately gives examples of using it as part of the game, which brings it to the real definition: "Degenerate strategies {...} prevent the game from being experienced in the manner intended by the game designer." Everyone making fun of this ridiculous term is correct to do so.
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Aug 15, 2015 13:51
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Curtailer wanted to see my rocket-launcher funtimes Zephyr+tonkor build, here it is: It's pretty expensive to cast Turbulence, but it lasts for 40 seconds. Your Tail Winds launch you a hilarious distance, but even without them, the movement speed from Turbulence with mobilize will let your bullet jumps soar. Using a crit-build tonkor without having to aim is fantastic, and it overcomes Nullifier shields quite nicely with firestorm installed. edit: Forgot to mention the purpose of this is to sustain Turbulence with power strength around 235% and Jet Stream so that your tonkor grenades explode on contact with a surface instead of an enemy. Frida Call Me fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Aug 15, 2015 |
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Aug 15, 2015 14:18
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  I was basically immortal (till a Moa somehow managed to smoke me out) and I could shoot through walls while enemies ignored me. A drone was coming through the wall, and pushed me into the wall, and I spent 35 minutes there. :de:
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Aug 15, 2015 14:32
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Denzine posted:That link tries to make it specifically about repetitive gameplay but then immediately gives examples of using it as part of the game, which brings it to the real definition: That's not quite right either. That link does a very poor job of explaining it. Actually, skimming it might be wrong entirely. It's a borrowed term of art from mathematics. In math a degenerate solution is one that, while technically satisfying the solution parameters, does so in a way that throws out a lot of the complexity of the problem, and is uninteresting and unhelpful. For example, a random number generator that can only select one number. It technically is an RNG, just with a probability distribution of zero everywhere except at that number. It's also not terribly useful for generating random numbers or instructive for learning about RNGs. Hence, it's degenerate. "Degenerate gameplay" extends that concept to player decisions: a strategy that is successful, but ignores or reduces a significant part of the complexity of the game. For example, if you were to challenge several chess masters to simultaneous matches, you could win half of them by pairing them up and copying each one's moves on your pieces against the other. That wouldn't really delve into the subtleties of chess, and your 50% win rate against chess masters wouldn't mean much of anything. It doesn't cover everything that's unintended. There are plenty of surprising strategies to games that are nonetheless interesting. Fighting game combos were originally an unintended mechanic of Street Fighter 2. So was backing your opponent into a corner and spamming a jump kick until they died. Only one of those is degenerate. So to bring it all back around to Warframe, standing in one place and spamming your move that autotargets to instantly kill every enemy kinda sets all the mechanics by the wayside. It doesn't matter whether it was intentional or not--in fact it would be hard to call those abilities and their results unintentional, but that's totally unimportant. It totally bypasses defensive considerations, the neat new parkour system, the skill checks on hitting your targets, any teamwork elements, etc. It reduces it all to hitting a button and waiting until you win. That's degeneracy.
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Aug 15, 2015 15:00
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Male Man posted:So to bring it all back around to Warframe, standing in one place and spamming your move that autotargets to instantly kill every enemy kinda sets all the mechanics by the wayside. It doesn't matter whether it was intentional or not--in fact it would be hard to call those abilities and their results unintentional, but that's totally unimportant. It totally bypasses defensive considerations, the neat new parkour system, the skill checks on hitting your targets, any teamwork elements, etc. It reduces it all to hitting a button and waiting until you win. That's degeneracy. Explain Mesa and Equinox's Maim then.
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Aug 15, 2015 16:26
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DelphiAegis posted:Explain Mesa and Equinox's Maim then. The devs want to avoid what could be termed "degenerative gameplay" but don't realize that some of the things they add are what enables said "degenerative gameplay"? After all, this is DE we're talking about.
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Aug 15, 2015 16:31
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And to be fair to DE, I don't think they care about peacemaker existing. It has a set fixed range and just gobbles energy. What they have issues with are things that get around those constraints, mainly the second one, and just make it so that you can peacemaker constantly.
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Aug 15, 2015 16:38
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DelphiAegis posted:Explain Mesa and Equinox's Maim then. You can't keep Peacemaker up for long. You can't kill poo poo with just Maim without charging it with kills first then unleashing it at optimal number of enemies. Greedy Pull got nerfed specifically because it could make Peacemaker last forever. The same with other channeling powers like Soundquake and Absorb, they got nerfed by not getting Trinity's EV or energy restores. It's really not that hard of a concept to follow. Pressing 1 button then AFK for an hour = bad. Pressing 1 button only at the right moment and could only lasts for 2.5 minutes tops = good.
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Aug 15, 2015 16:43
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Are you implying that the reason Equinox and Mesa aren't getting nerfed into uselessness isn't that they're hard to get, thus cash cows? 
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Aug 15, 2015 16:46
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Nalesh posted:Are you implying that the reason Equinox and Mesa aren't getting nerfed into uselessness isn't that they're hard to get, thus cash cows? Hydroid was poo poo before and he was a poo poo ton harder to get than Mesa or Equinox. DE makes money out of Vauban most likely.
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Aug 15, 2015 16:51
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Male Man posted:stuff Then we get stuff like the examples in the link where taking complexity and reducing it is in fact how you're supposed to do things, and we're back to it being "Degenerate strategies {...} prevent the game from being experienced in the manner intended by the game designer." The math term doesn't work when applied to videogames because while in math the technically-a-solution defeats the purpose of making the solution(learning, actual useful work), in videogames the non-solution to the problem might actually be the correct solution, because if you had fun you've succeeded. Unless you want to use "degenerate gameplay" to mean "unfun gameplay" in which case it works I guess but surely there's no need to bring over a new term for it when we've got a perfectly functional one right here. wid posted:You can't keep Peacemaker up for long. You can't kill poo poo with just Maim without charging it with kills first then unleashing it at optimal number of enemies. Greedy Pull got nerfed specifically because it could make Peacemaker last forever. The same with other channeling powers like Soundquake and Absorb, they got nerfed by not getting Trinity's EV or energy restores. It's really not that hard of a concept to follow. Maim hits Sonar weak points automatically. Resonance procs more Sonar. You can keep this up basically forever on basically anything, even Grineer if you 4stack Corrosive Projection. also Vauban is the best.
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Aug 15, 2015 16:56
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Denzine posted:The math term doesn't work when applied to videogames because while in math the technically-a-solution defeats the purpose of making the solution(learning, actual useful work), in videogames the non-solution to the problem might actually be the correct solution, because if you had fun you've succeeded. Unless you want to use "degenerate gameplay" to mean "unfun gameplay" in which case it works I guess but surely there's no need to bring over a new term for it when we've got a perfectly functional one right here. It's not just 'unfun gameplay', it's unfun gameplay that's encouraged by the game's incentive mechanics to the point where it's better than actual fun gameplay. Reloading your gun after every single shot would be unfun, but the game doesn't encourage it so it's not degenerate. vOv fucked around with this message at 17:49 on Aug 15, 2015 |
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Aug 15, 2015 17:44
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And even if Maim didn't have a huge synergy with Banshee's sonar resonance, it still stuns and does a gently caress load of damage with little energy drain or effort. Anyway, since you fucks are  , I was doing the pluto spy mission today because huzzah double affinity. I got a 2x affinity from a rare crate in-mission and thus had quad affinity.This is the result:  It took two missions to max my amprex after a forma, and I even hosed up a single vault on one of the runs.
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Aug 15, 2015 17:48
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vOv posted:It's not just 'unfun gameplay', it's unfun gameplay that's encouraged by the game's incentive mechanics to the point where it's better than actual fun gameplay. Reloading your gun after every single shot would be unfun, but the game doesn't encourage it so it's not degenerate. so... unfun gameplay.
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Aug 15, 2015 18:30
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Denzine posted:so... unfun gameplay. Is doing Draco with a Mesa fun for you? Because Mesa is certainly an example of this concept. The devs did not intend you to just stand in one place and use Peacemaker for the duration of every round. And it has all the classic traits of such a strategy; standing in one place, using one move over and over to great effect, going against the core concept that WF is trying to encourage and so on.
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Aug 15, 2015 18:58
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The problem with your logic is that you fail to add to your calculus why people do that. The answer is that they try to make the grinding easier, and in the process get to the stuff they find fun more quickly.
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Aug 15, 2015 19:14
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And here I thought we were talking about some game-y version of the opposite of Authorial Intent. Edit: Also,  SURVIVE or DIE Gorgon Wraith Alert is now up /w 20k Credits for less than 23 Hours Edit2: They took away shields this time.... not that they helped much last time. Edit3: Highest level enemy was Level 54, over 20 rounds. BeAuMaN fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Aug 15, 2015 |
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Aug 15, 2015 20:00
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BeAuMaN posted:And here I thought we were talking about some game-y version of the opposite of Authorial Intent. So 4x rhino time.
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Aug 15, 2015 20:33
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^^Speednova and tonkor bam bamTallgeese posted:The problem with your logic is that you fail to add to your calculus why people do that. You're right, I don't add that. I'm just talking about the definition of the term, not why it's done. That's a perfectly valid follow-up point and well worth discussing though.
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Aug 15, 2015 20:38
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Denzine posted:so... unfun gameplay. Are you not reading the words that I'm saying? Not all unfun gameplay is degenerate, so it's useful to have a word that refers to a particular kind of unfun gameplay.
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Aug 15, 2015 20:41
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BeAuMaN posted:And here I thought we were talking about some game-y version of the opposite of Authorial Intent. yeah the alert is in nightmare mode, so no shields
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Aug 15, 2015 21:00
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So tommorrow they'll do a defense where it goes up to level 60 enemies in nightmare mode AND Juggernaut spawns? Heh. They will not part so easily with their 25 R5 Cores.
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Aug 15, 2015 21:08
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22 Eargesplitten posted:So 4x rhino time. After failing to complete the raid 4 times in a row due to server issues, Display glitches, system crashes, and other bug related reasons, the group just decided to say screw it, use 2 Mesas and a limbo to get the alert over with.
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Aug 15, 2015 21:22
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Got it on the third try with pubs, no rhinos  Doesn't look like the gun comes with a pre installed catalyst
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Aug 15, 2015 21:36
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Why would it, none of the reruns have had catalysts in them.
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Aug 15, 2015 21:53
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Had 1 pubbie Mesa that carried me through alert. He ended up with 1,600 kills
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Aug 15, 2015 21:56
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Nalesh posted:Why would it, none of the reruns have had catalysts in them. I'm relativly new to the game so this is the first time I have been around when something has been re given away - the last event gun wraith version had a catalyst, so I assumed this one would too.
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Aug 15, 2015 22:18
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Beat it first try with some goons. Everyone got downed at least once per round except me because I was the only one who thought to bring a rhino for some reason. (I still died twice for what it's worth. Even with 700 health and 275 armor you just drop like a rock whenever IS goes down.)
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Aug 15, 2015 22:25
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MechanicalTomPetty posted:(I still died twice for what it's worth. Even with 700 health and 275 armor you just drop like a rock whenever IS goes down.)
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Aug 15, 2015 23:02
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Nalesh posted:Why would it, none of the reruns have had catalysts in them. Strun Wraith did, unless I shoved a potato in my unranked one for no reason and then forgot about it. The ones that didn't were Machete Wraith and Prova Vandal, but they were sold by Baro so that's a pretty different situation.
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Aug 15, 2015 23:11
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Mr Beens posted:Got it on the third try with pubs, no rhinos I think maybe they want you to potato it with the one from the first Survive or Die? Either way, I don't mind. These Survive or Die alerts have been tense and awesome. I brought my Equinox along last time with one of the guild's Resonance Banshees and made everything die while desperately leaping around trying to avoid death.
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Aug 15, 2015 23:20
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In today's survive or die I was running mesa and had a pubbie frost that kept me bubbled on top of the pod  , did 80% of the damage and never died (the other 3 died constantly).Worked out pretty easy.
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Aug 16, 2015 02:39
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I tried doing the second one with 15 minutes left and everybody else in the pub group sucked; two of them wound up leaving, and I wound up doing like 20 times as much damage as the other guy with a rank 11 potatoed Hek. We failed at wave 13. It was terrible.
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Aug 16, 2015 02:49
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Denzine posted:Maim hits Sonar weak points automatically. Resonance procs more Sonar. You can keep this up basically forever on basically anything, even Grineer if you 4stack Corrosive Projection. Maim + sonar is great but you can't AFK through it even with macros. You will need to actively seek out energy orbs to keep them up or turn them off to pop a restore or Trinity EV. Which is why the Excal rework is great since it is a great example of powerful yet fair because you still have to play the game. Maim + sonar has nothing on old Excal javelin spammer or Mag massacring Viver. Even current Draco with Mesa requires the Mesa to play the game a tiny bit to regain energy back. Mesa + Greedy Mag can kill the entire map while AFK with simple macros. The devs want you to put some sort of minimal effort to play this easy game. They're only curbing elements that enables you to "play" while afk for hours.
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Aug 16, 2015 02:54
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vOv posted:I tried doing the second one with 15 minutes left and everybody else in the pub group sucked; two of them wound up leaving, and I wound up doing like 20 times as much damage as the other guy with a rank 11 potatoed Hek. We failed at wave 13. It was terrible. Man, Pub groups can get really Hit or Miss. I've never had this huge of a problem with them though I did once have a pub Rhino that just could not stay on his feet in one of the early Survival missions. I mean he was dying every minute or so. I give him the benefit of a doubt and assume he didn't have Iron Skin unlocked yet in that match.
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Aug 16, 2015 02:56
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Two Frosts with me as Rhino using Tonkor in survive or die. 61% of the damage done and 41 revives on teammates, about half of which were a stupid Oberon that was across the map most of the time.  I really need to finish putting Rhino Prime together so I can potato this glorious Ironskinned bastard.
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Aug 16, 2015 03:30
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Did it with a pub group, highest rank was 7 lowest was 3. I tried anyways because i was in the mood for a flaming trainwreck and some newbie helping. They only died like 3 times and it went smooth, very surprised(mesa frost nova, i was rhino prime. Rhino felt like cheating ). They even ran around in the unbubbled area like its nothing.
FunkyFlashman fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Aug 16, 2015 |
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Aug 16, 2015 03:32
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I did it with a lv 16 Ash Prime and died like 20 times. Sorry to the goons that had to revive my sorry rear end up. 
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Aug 16, 2015 03:35
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I ran it as rhino p with a jat kittag. Just kept doing the ground slam combo. The second highest kills guy was 400. I had 900.
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Aug 16, 2015 03:43
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