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X-O posted:Wolverine and Sabertooth have been Avengers. Deadpool is barely a blip compared to those two. Sabertooth wasn't an actual Avenger in Uncanny Avengers. He didn't get a sweet ID card, he just got conscripted for a mission or two.
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Aug 16, 2015 00:52
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Skwirl posted:They were Nazis, in a war. It's different. And the people Deadpool and Wolverine have killed have probably mostly been bad people. We all have our reasons.
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Aug 16, 2015 01:04
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Skwirl posted:Yes,actually. I'm not going to say you shouldn't kill Carnage, but it's different from the beaches of Normandy. I would buy that if anyone had hopes that Carnage/Cletus could reform and become at least a non-psycopathic criminal, but from what I can tell even Spider-man doesn't really think that's ever going to happen and he's just going to have to stay in jail the rest of his life, but a) he keeps breaking out, and b) every time he breaks out he always reverts to wonton murder almost immedietally. Like I get that a hero that doesn't kill needs a really evil villain that tests their policy, but I feel that only really works if anyone even humors the idea of the villain reforming or getting better. burnishedfume fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Aug 16, 2015 |
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Aug 16, 2015 01:18
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Skwirl posted:Fixed that for you. Well, that is the defacto truth, that mini made it the dejour truth. bobkatt013 posted:She was so happy when Deadpool gave her the rocket launcher. I blew up new york!!!!
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Aug 16, 2015 03:33
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There's some absurd Avengers themed socks at Wal Mart. All the usual, and for some reason Black Bolt. My friend bought me Black Bolt socks.
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Aug 16, 2015 07:27
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DrProsek posted:I would buy that if anyone had hopes that Carnage/Cletus could reform and become at least a non-psycopathic criminal, but from what I can tell even Spider-man doesn't really think that's ever going to happen and he's just going to have to stay in jail the rest of his life, but a) he keeps breaking out, and b) every time he breaks out he always reverts to wonton murder almost immedietally. Like I get that a hero that doesn't kill needs a really evil villain that tests their policy, but I feel that only really works if anyone even humors the idea of the villain reforming or getting better. You're right, Spider-Man should carry a gun.
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Aug 16, 2015 07:32
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Skwirl posted:You're right, Spider-Man should carry a gun. Worked for Kraven!
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Aug 16, 2015 07:55
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Skwirl posted:You're right, Spider-Man should carry a gun. Spider-Man should never carry a gun! I mean, what the hell can he do with a gun that he can't with his bare fists? Spock took Scorpion's jaw clean off without even trying and realized Peter is holding back all the time. He just needs to do what Spock did but aim a little higher. Disintegration of the brain would be so fast it'd be completely painless too, no bleeding out from bullet wounds. Humane! As for the war thing, what's the difference between Nazi mooks and any other kind? Captain America enlisted to stop an evil man's plans of mass murder and world domination. The military ain't super heroes, but there's hardly a difference between what Cap specifically was doing then and what he does now. Same with any other hero. Of course, super heroes are not just soldiers. They are also protectors and role models. But as far as who they fight goes, it's basically the same exact thing. There's a smaller scale when it's, say, gangsters instead of Hydra, but they're the same regardless of if Kingpin hasn't killed quite as many people as Strucker that week.
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Aug 16, 2015 08:11
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Skwirl posted:You're right, Spider-Man should carry a gun.  I'm not sure what you mean. I wasn't saying "Spider-man should become the Punisher because Carnage is really evil", I was saying that comparing killing Carnage to killing a Nazi SS officer/soldier isn't a bad comparison because Carnage is basically a caricature of a Nazi. "All he wants to do is kill, not even for any reason in particular. Also he's immune to modern psychology so you can never make him want to stop killing*. Also prisons can't hold him, he'll just break out whenever he wants. Or just keep killing people in prison. Also he has superpowers that make him want to kill even more and make him even better at it. Basically if Cletus or the Carnage symbiote are alive he'll keep killing". I dunno maybe I'm just not that well read on Carnage but from what I recall of him he's basically a murderbot while other Spider-man villains like Venom, Norman Osborn, Kingpin, etc are at least people who can in theory (and in practice in the case of Venom) change or at least be contained in prisons.*(except for world-altering magic that has only ever been used once) E: Although iirc at some point the Carnage symbiote has resurrected Cletus after being murdered so I guess talking about if it's okay to kill him is moot since he's largely immortal.
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Aug 16, 2015 08:16
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WickedHate posted:Captain America enlisted to stop an evil man's plans of mass murder and world domination. The military ain't super heroes, but there's hardly a difference between what Cap specifically was doing then and what he does now. Same with any other hero. You mean besides being trained and having rules and regulations?
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Aug 16, 2015 08:21
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bobkatt013 posted:You mean besides being trained and having rules and regulations? Pro-Registration had a drat good point when they weren't being written as blatently evil as possible. Although, I wouldn't want super heroes answerable to the United States government either, so I'd be Anti-Registration for that alone.
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Aug 16, 2015 08:27
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Superheroes are basically glorified cops, except with less of the "use of deadly force because of fear of losing life" thing because they're on another power level entirely to where they can't really be saying they have a just cause to believe they'll lose their life. Spider-Man killing Carnage would be a bypass of due process and not make him much better than self-appointed executioner. The real question is why people like Carnage or, in DC, the Joker aren't either given the death penalty or stuck in such an isolated area (maybe Reid's Negative Zone jail???) that they can't escape, and the answer is, "Comic book logic." Comparing Cap killing Nazis to Cap killing Carnage is like saying there's no difference between a soldier going after an enemy combatant and a cop going after a drug dealer. There isn't the same due process in war as there are for citizens.
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Aug 16, 2015 08:38
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Probably Magic posted:There isn't the same due process in war as there are for citizens. To me, the pros of due process is that it helps stop cops from killing whoever they like and also, it makes it so that facts must be gathered to prove guilt. Obviously, this doesn't help all the time, cops get away with murder, the guilty go free, innocents are punished, but it's something. With Captain America killing Carnage(to continue on the same hypothetical) neither the morality of the "cop" or proving the bad guy actually did as he is accused of is an issue, just as a soldier doesn't (usually) need to prove why he was shooting at an enemy combatant. WickedHate fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Aug 16, 2015 |
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Aug 16, 2015 08:47
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WickedHate posted:e, just as a soldier doesn't (usually) need to prove why he was shooting at an enemy combatant. Yes they do. If they did not have a reason to then they could be court-martialed.
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Aug 16, 2015 08:52
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bobkatt013 posted:Yes they do. If they did not have a reason to then they could be court-martialed. I said usually. Do soldiers have to file a report for every time they pull the trigger too? Either way, neither of the reasons for due process' existance in either a warzone or the streets of New Yorkwhat's the difference ha haare in play with Cap vs Carnage. WickedHate fucked around with this message at 09:04 on Aug 16, 2015 |
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Aug 16, 2015 08:59
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Probably Magic posted:The real question is why people like Carnage or, in DC, the Joker aren't either given the death penalty or stuck in such an isolated area (maybe Reid's Negative Zone jail???) that they can't escape, and the answer is, "Comic book logic." Well, New York doesn't have the death penalty. The real answer though is that nobody ever dies in comics.
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Aug 16, 2015 09:06
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PaybackJack posted:Well, New York doesn't have the death penalty. The real answer though is that nobody ever dies in comics. Also what gives him the right to kill Carnage? Where does it begin or end. If they can kill they are the ones who make the decision and leads to God Emperors.
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Aug 16, 2015 09:08
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bobkatt013 posted:Also what gives him the right to kill Carnage? Where does it begin or end. If they can kill they are the ones who make the decision and leads to God Emperors. And as has been established I think that's swell. Any good normal human governments do are almost in spite of themselves anyway...wouldn't things be so much better if Steve Rogers was in charge? Of everything? His and Tony's nations on Battleworld seem nice. Vindication! The perfect solution to Civil War would also have been to give Cap his own group in charge of registration and training super heroes outside of SHIELD and the nations that run it. You know what was great? The Authority. I love the Authority. Warren Ellis' and Robbie Morrison's runs anyway, the rest sucked pretty bad, but that's Sturgeon's law for ya. WickedHate fucked around with this message at 09:29 on Aug 16, 2015 |
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Aug 16, 2015 09:10
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bobkatt013 posted:Also what gives him the right to kill Carnage? Where does it begin or end. If they can kill they are the ones who make the decision and leads to God Emperors. I would agree that superheroes shouldn't be judge, jury, and executioner, but I have no problem with a court sentencing Carnage to death.
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Aug 16, 2015 09:16
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WickedHate posted:And as has been established I think that's swell. Any good normal human governments do are almost in spite of themselves anyway...wouldn't things be so much better if Steve Rogers was in charge? Of everything? His and Tony's nations on Battleworld seem nice. Vindication! hahaha you're an actual fascist holy poo poo
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Aug 16, 2015 09:31
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I am not a nationalist.
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Aug 16, 2015 09:36
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bobkatt013 posted:Also what gives him the right to kill Carnage? Where does it begin or end. If they can kill they are the ones who make the decision and leads to God Emperors. Well in Carnage USA, because Carnage seceded from the USA and the USA has made its position on secession very clear. More to the point, if Cap has such a strong no-kill policy, he really dropped the ball on getting Logan to answer for or at least stop committing murders, and the new Wolverine's not looking much better. I'm just saying that if Cap doesn't feel up to it, he could just let his old buddy Logan/Laura  Carnage for him.
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Aug 16, 2015 09:52
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bobkatt013 posted:The death of wolverine one shot with the two of them is awesome.
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Aug 16, 2015 13:56
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Guys, want to know why Marvel and DC heroes mostly don't run around killing every villain they see? Because that's the tropes of those universes as laid down by the Comics Code and it's largely stuck. It would also lead to a lot fewer villains for writers to use, and with the lack of reasonable royalty sharing, creators don't have a lot of incentive to create new ones for every story. That GOOD news is that if you want stories where superheroes kill everyone and take over the Earth, they exist! Authority, Miracle Man, Squadron Supreme, and I'm sure plenty more!
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Aug 16, 2015 17:04
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Nobody kills Carnage because Marvel can get a writer to make a mini for him every other year and get a quick buck.
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Aug 16, 2015 17:30
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There are multiple practical reasons they don't kill villains. Villains tend to be popular in their own right and readers want them to stick around, from a merchandising perspective they want set villains for easier marketing and writers don't want to be constantly coming up with new unique villains.
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Aug 16, 2015 17:58
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muscles like this? posted:There are multiple practical reasons they don't kill villains. Villains tend to be popular in their own right and readers want them to stick around, from a merchandising perspective they want set villains for easier marketing and writers don't want to be constantly coming up with new unique villains. Well yes, and that's why I think actually seriously arguing if Spider-man has a moral/ethical obligation to kill Carnage/any villain is pointless. All I wanted to say was once you're arguing "When is it okay for heroes to kill?", I don't really see a good reason to put Carnage below/say it's less okay to kill Carnage than the Nazi soldiers Cap did kill.  For the record comics would be incredibly boring for me if everyone was Punisher/Wolverine. Sure, it'd also be dumb if nobody ever killed and these characters have their place, but a) the argument that superheroes are inherently fascist gets way more awkward when the 'heroes' are all summarily executing people (especially superpowered heroes executing unpowered villains), b) you either can't have recurring villains for too long or have to come up with increasingly contrived reasons why Cap isn't going to execute Red Skull this week despite having no problem murdering all his henchmen, c) I'd like it if comicbooks at least paid lip service to the idea that criminals are people too and can even stop being criminals if you give them a chance, and d) your hero will become incredibly unlikable when he's curbstomping villains who aren't evil incarnate to death.
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Aug 16, 2015 18:39
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Also, I frankly don't want to read comic heroes just going willy-nilly murdering people. Maybe I'm stupid for liking the chivalry that goes along with a no-kill policy, but it sets a standard code that keeps heroes from being boring. I find Punisher really boring. I mean, I've read a lot from Ennis' run, but the character himself is boring as a concept. It's too easy to kill. It's far more difficult, and therefore interesting, to apprehend. In reality, the true problem is that comic companies want to have their cake and eat it too, so they have these villains never die, but then, in order to drum them up and get sales, make them commit murder in the hundreds. Which leads to the irreconcilable elements of extreme murderers not being put down, and to the same boring convo that pops up in every comics forum/discussion ever. E: DrProsek basically beat me to it.
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Aug 16, 2015 18:45
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Endless Mike posted:Because that's the tropes of those universes as laid down by the Comics Code and it's largely stuck
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Aug 16, 2015 18:46
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i can honestly also say i don't wanna read stories about "spider-man supervillain killer". we already got enough authority figures killing people every day out in the real world, i would rather not have to read about it in light-hearted escapist fiction about a nerd who can crawl up walls. like that poo poo has its place but i feel overall it works stronger when a superhero doing it is an exception to the rule rather than the opposite.
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Aug 16, 2015 18:51
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All that said though, you'd think by the umpteenth time that there's been a supervillain breaking out of jail then killing someone, Marvel New York would really look into changing their stance on the death penalty.
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Aug 16, 2015 19:25
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TwoPair posted:All that said though, you'd think by the umpteenth time that there's been a supervillain breaking out of jail then killing someone, Marvel New York would really look into changing their stance on the death penalty. Like any supervillian would stay in jail long enough to actually go through a trial.
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Aug 16, 2015 19:28
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TwoPair posted:All that said though, you'd think by the umpteenth time that there's been a supervillain breaking out of jail then killing someone, Marvel New York would really look into changing their stance on the death penalty. It takes forever to actually kill someone via death penalty.
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Aug 16, 2015 19:37
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at the end of the day this is just part of what you buy into to accept superhero comics
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Aug 16, 2015 19:37
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I still stand by what I was talking about back in the DC Keeps loving Up thread: there's a certain point, the Joker Threshold, that a villain needs to stay firmly below if you want to maintain that necessary illusion for superhero comics. Captain Cold under Johns is a good example of this: yes, he constantly breaks out of prison, but even when he's free, the worst he's going to do is knock over a jewelry store. He may kill somebody, but as the reader, you're willing to let him get away with it because that somebody really has it coming. Most of Spider-Man's rogues' gallery are also okay with this, because they're mercenaries or petty crooks or driven entirely by revenge on Spider-Man himself. Even somebody like Doctor Octopus has a relatively low kill count. Carnage is problematic because he's routinely allowed to go well above the Joker Threshold. There was a comic written relatively recently where he invaded New York's City Hall, murdering a whole building full of cops and Secret Service agents, before barely being prevented from killing the mayor. There's another one where he personally depopulated a prison. Characters like Carnage just don't work well with "widescreen" comics, because the most left-wing, rehabilitation-based prison system in the world would answer one of these rampages by sealing him in a Lucite block and firing him into the sun. You can get some fun stories out of playing with the traditional superhero setup, or by adding the ingredients of superheroes to all sorts of other genres, but you have to be very careful with your antagonists or it makes the hero and his/her support networks look ineffectual. It's one of the primary weaknesses of certain Batman stories in the last twenty years, it's one of the weak spots of Bendis's Ultimate Spider-Man, and it's why Carnage should be used much more sparingly than he currently is.
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Aug 16, 2015 20:11
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bobkatt013 posted:Also what gives him the right to kill Carnage? ....the law? This is America, some dude starts slicing people in half around you, feel free to kill them. Totally legal. You have a right to kill someone if you feel there is a reasonable threat to your life, and an alien space monster killing tons of people is a reasonable threat by any measure. There's nothing that says you have to run away [Mostly] or wait for the police. If you are afraid, if it's a real threat, drop bodies. 
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Aug 16, 2015 20:28
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Boogaleeboo posted:There's nothing that says you have to run away [Mostly] or wait for the police. If you are afraid, if it's a real threat, drop bodies. Stand Your Ground laws exist in some (23) states specifically because this isn't generally true. The first of these was only passed in 2005, so clearly there was a belief that self-defense exception to homicide laws did not cover what you're saying before that. Moreover, in New York (and seventeen other states), where these books primarily take place, literally the opposite is in effect: you have a Duty To Retreat, and are only allowed to use deadly force if you cannot. Most of the states that are in neither extreme have Castle Doctrine variants, wherein you can Stand Your Ground in your home (and sometimes personally owned vehicle), but not elsewhere. So, you know, there's that.
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Aug 16, 2015 22:55
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AzraelNewtype posted:Stand Your Ground laws exist in some (23) states specifically because this isn't generally true. The first of these was only passed in 2005, so clearly there was a belief that self-defense exception to homicide laws did not cover what you're saying before that. Moreover, in New York (and seventeen other states), where these books primarily take place, literally the opposite is in effect: you have a Duty To Retreat, and are only allowed to use deadly force if you cannot. Most of the states that are in neither extreme have Castle Doctrine variants, wherein you can Stand Your Ground in your home (and sometimes personally owned vehicle), but not elsewhere. So, you know, there's that. So what you're saying is that Spider-man needs to pool all the superhero money he can to buy most of the real estate of NYC and wait for Carnage to walk into an apartment he owns in order to commit righteous death murder.
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Aug 17, 2015 01:05
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DrProsek posted:I would buy that if anyone had hopes that Carnage/Cletus could reform and become at least a non-psycopathic criminal, but from what I can tell even Spider-man doesn't really think that's ever going to happen and he's just going to have to stay in jail the rest of his life, but a) he keeps breaking out, and b) every time he breaks out he always reverts to wonton murder almost immedietally. Like I get that a hero that doesn't kill needs a really evil villain that tests their policy, but I feel that only really works if anyone even humors the idea of the villain reforming or getting better. uh, hello he's been a fantastic hero  regular carnage is poo poo but axis carnage is the only good thing to come out of that event
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Aug 17, 2015 01:32
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As someone from the South I wish Cletus' accent was played up more.
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Aug 17, 2015 01:34
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