|
Manatee Cannon posted:Djikstra is way better than that guy on his own, but it wasn't just him and that whole thing was dumb The ending proves that Dijkstra was right about everything though. Can't see even Iorveth path Geralt abandoning Ves to her fate though. She had no idea what was happening. JetsGuy posted:you learn early on in W2 not to gently caress with Vernon Roche. Ves kills Geralt there, not Roche.
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 00:46
|
|
Killed while attempting escape
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 10:36 |
|
|
The Sharmat posted:The ending proves that Dijkstra was right about everything though. Can't see even Iorveth path Geralt abandoning Ves to her fate though. She had no idea what was happening. The ending proves him dumb because Nilfgaard leaves the north no matter what. Even when they win as much as is possible, they still all pack up and head for home. In fact, Geralt tells him that Emhyr only wants to see his daughter and abdicate. He's a smart guy; he should know what that means. The whole confrontation with Roche and Thaler was really stupid because Roche was already willing to forgo Temaria's sovereignty to a foreign power and, again, Nilfgaard was leaving anyway. There was no rush. Why not even try to talk it out? And why attack them when Geralt, the guy that already beat the stuffing out of him, is literally standing right there? None of his plan at the end of Reason of State makes any sense. Outside of that bit he's good though. One of my favorite characters in the game. I just don't like how they handled the end to his quest line. Also wasn't a fan of the end game for Ciri. What's she gonna do? Stab the blizzard with her sword? That's not even her job anyway. Besides which, characters in the books mention that the White Frost is literally just the gradual cooling of the planet into an ice age. It's not some magical space ball that you can poke to death. Manatee Cannon fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Aug 18, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 00:50
|
|
|
Rizzo Crackers posted:Put together one of my Alternative Launch Trailers for the game. It took bloody ages to make. Hope you folks like it. Great stuff. I always look forward to your trailers. Another winner 
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 00:51
|
|
|
Rizzo Crackers posted:Put together one of my Alternative Launch Trailers for the game. It took bloody ages to make. Hope you folks like it. Goddamn that is good, this is the first I've these I've seen and I'm gonna check out your others now. Very impressive.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 00:56
|
|
|
Manatee Cannon posted:The ending proves him dumb because Nilfgaard leaves the north no matter what. Even when they win as much as is possible, they still all pack up and head for home. In fact, Geralt tells him that Emhyr only wants to see his daughter and abdicate. He's a smart guy; he should know what that means. The whole confrontation with Roche and Thaler was really stupid because Roche was already willing to forgo Temaria's sovereignty to a foreign power and, again, Nilfgaard was leaving anyway. There was no rush. Why not even try to talk it out? And why attack them when Geralt, the guy that already beat the stuffing out of him, is literally standing right there? None of his plan at the end of Reason of State makes any sense. You didn't understand the ending. Nilfgaard doesn't leave the north. They mostly withdraw from Temeria, since they're their vassals now, but conquer the rest of Redania and Kaedwen. In violation of the deal they made with Thaler and Roche. The deal was the Pontar would be the new border. Yet they occupy Novigrad, Tretogor, and basically everything but Kovir and the Hengfors League. Nilfgaard screwed them, just as Dijkstra said. There is a rush. Radovid was the only thing holding the North together. He has to be replaced by someone with a strong hand, ASAP, or it all falls apart. And if you think Roche is the kind of guy you sit around and talk reasonably with to change his mind once its set, I think you weren't paying attention in TW2. The only thing dumb about that ending is that Dijkstra does this in front of Geralt instead of waiting for him to walk away. But then they'd be inundated with whining that Roche got killed offscreen, so what can you do? Edit: The White Frost is poorly defined and retconned at least once in the books. I really don't care about the exact nature of it, or Ciri's powers. That's not the point of that segment. In TW3 it's heat death of the multiverse, and vague elder blood powers can stop it. The Sharmat fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Aug 18, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 00:58
|
|
|
Poetic Justice posted:Any of you guys had a chance to get into NG+? How is it? I've played a bit of the prologue. Starting ghouls were level 31 and pretty easy to handle, haven't run into many enemies yet. You get to keep most of your inventory and stash, and merchants seem to sell scaled-up gear, which is interesting. Also, they show a short cutscene of Geralt sleeping before the tutorial dream begins, which is either a NG+ thing or something I missed completely.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 00:58
|
|
|
That was always there.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 01:00
|
|
|
sertalman posted:I've played a bit of the prologue. Starting ghouls were level 31 and pretty easy to handle, haven't run into many enemies yet. You get to keep most of your inventory and stash, and merchants seem to sell scaled-up gear, which is interesting. You must have missed it, I only started my first game pretty recently so I remember that is indeed in a regular new game opening.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 01:01
|
|
|
The Sharmat posted:You didn't understand the ending. Nilfgaard doesn't leave the north. They mostly withdraw from Temeria, since they're their vassals now, and conquers the rest of Redania and Kaedwen. In violation of the deal they made with Thaler and Roche. The deal was the Pontar would be the new border. Yet they occupy Novigrad, Tretogor, and basically everything but Kovir and the Hengfors League. Nilfgaard screwed them, just as Roche said. In the end, isn't the reason that things falls apart entirely the fault of Djikstra though? The deal Thaler makes was made with the mindset that Djikstra was onboard with them, I imagine they assumed he would be willing to continue working behind the scenes to manage the rest of the North as he had in the past, while Roche was just concerned with making sure Temeria was left to run itself as a vassal state. But Djikstra is tired of never playing the leading man (as he notes during his "performance") so decides to strike at that moment and just slot himself into Radovid's place, and as a result he dies and leaves a power vacuum in place in the North that Nilfgaard basically has no choice but to fill. Temaria is different because their deal was to leave it alone if the guerillas stopped their terrorist raids. So Roche still has leverage for his part of the deal, but the other places are hosed because Djikstra screwed the pooch for them. Basically Nilfgaard and the North sign a deal, then agents of the North try to rework their side of the deal. It wasn't Nilfgaard that violates the deal, they just reacted to events, and the surviving members of the alliance did what they could to salvage their end after Djikstra muddied the waters. Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Aug 18, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 01:03
|
|
|
The Sharmat posted:You didn't understand the ending. Nilfgaard doesn't leave the north. They mostly withdraw from Temeria, since they're their vassals now, but conquer the rest of Redania and Kaedwen. In violation of the deal they made with Thaler and Roche. The deal was the Pontar would be the new border. Yet they occupy Novigrad, Tretogor, and basically everything but Kovir and the Hengfors League. Nilfgaard screwed them, just as Dijkstra said. I understood the ending just fine, thanks.  I don't really want to get in a big argument over this with you (because pattern recognition) so we can agree to disagree, however.Though I will say that one other thing bothered me about the plot: The Wild Hunt itself in the end game. They really missed an opportunity with a few scenes. For example, Eredin himself speaks to you, what, twice? I think a really good opportunity to get insight into the Aen Elle, the Wild Hunt, and Eredin himself, was squandered with the flashback to the death of Auberon. I understand changing things from one form of media to another because some things don't make sense, but this was a bad move. It was a dark room with a chair and Eredin just walks up and acts evil. Then it's just over. I wish they'd kept what had happened in the book and made this flashback the last Ciri gameplay section. You could have the conversation with Eredin before the king dies and the scene where Ciri meets him as he's fading away. Just being able to see more of the wold of the Wild Hunt and being able to talk to Eredin some more would have helped a lot, because I didn't really have any feeling about them even after having come from the background of the novels. The only one that evokes an emotional respone is the one that kills Vesemir. The White Frost part should have been moved to some post game DLC thing as well because the weight of finishing the Wild Hunt is totally lost when the Frost literally pops up out of nowhere.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 01:12
|
|
|
Jerusalem posted:Basically Nilfgaard and the North sign a deal, then agents of the North try to rework their side of the deal. It wasn't Nilfgaard that violates the deal, they just reacted to events, and the surviving members of the alliance did what they could to salvage their end after Djikstra muddied the waters. I don't think Nilfgaard knows the details about any of this. And it's not like Emhyr hasn't renegged on deals like this before. It's kind of a pattern with him, actually. He already did it in the Second Northern War. Manatee Cannon posted:I understood the ending just fine, thanks. You said things that were objectively factually incorrect, so apparently not. Game needed more Wild Hunt though, yeah.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 01:18
|
|
|
No, I didn't, but this is in fact why I said I was dropping it
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 01:21
|
|
|
Manatee Cannon posted:No, I didn't, but this is in fact why I said I was dropping it I'm not gonna agree to disagree that Nilfgaard left the North when Nilfgaard didn't leave the North and this is spelled out in the ending.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 01:22
|
|
|
Looks like Tomira the white orchard alchemist has been cut from NG+ I'm guessing because making swallow would take away the superior swallow. Hopefully more important things haven't been removed.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 01:24
|
|
|
Poolparty posted:Looks like Tomira the white orchard alchemist has been cut from NG+ I'm guessing because making swallow would take away the superior swallow. That's dumb. They've really gotta fix that. I'm assuming it's the same problem that takes away your enhanced/superior dimeritium bombs at Kaer Morhen later.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 01:29
|
|
|
Whispering Hillock: Has anyone successfully followed the Thunder Horse to its destination? It definitely runs back to where the wild black horses are at, but I always lose it there can't tell if that's where the trail actually ends, or if it's just running through and just trying to lose me.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 01:29
|
|
|
Rizzo Crackers posted:Put together one of my Alternative Launch Trailers for the game. It took bloody ages to make. Hope you folks like it. Oh goddamn it. Now I have to start playing again.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 01:34
|
|
|
The Sharmat posted:I'm not gonna agree to disagree that Nilfgaard left the North when Nilfgaard didn't leave the North and this is spelled out in the ending. Dude in every ending Emhyr leaves and takes all his knights with him. If Radovid or Djikstra are alive, he loses outright and possibly even winds up dead. If not he still leaves Temaria but they become a vassal state to Nilfgaard. The actual ending has Nilfgaard leave. The only way that Nilfgaard stay uncontested is if both Djikstra and Radovid die because he loses the war. However, even if he wins he still leaves. Nilfgaard doesn't stay gone forever; that's not what I'm trying to make you understand. His leaving and taking his army with him is what allows Djikstra to set up his rule. This happens no matter who is alive or dead. Obviously Nilfgaard come back, but they don't just sit up there twiddling their thumbs or conquering lands they've already brought to heel. This is why Djikstra is dumb for jumping the gun. He had more time than you seem to think (Nilfgaard was still in Novigrad/Velen for a while after the conclusion to Reason of State) but he decides to test your loyalty and not even try diplomacy with Roche. What's even the point of not trying if his plan is to kill them there anyway? He didn't even try. It's just there so you're forced to make a choice, and it's not a very good one because most people aren't gonna elect to backstab the people that have been helping them across two games for a guy they probably barely know and hasn't exactly been pleasant to you if you gently caress up getting his gold back.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 01:37
|
|
|
Do I need to post ending slides? Is that what it's gonna take?
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 01:39
|
|
|
The Sharmat posted:Do I need to post ending slides? Is that what it's gonna take? He'd find a way to dispute those,I'm sure.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 01:39
|
|
|
I've watched the endings. I know what happens. I also knew that this was gonna happen. 
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 01:40
|
|
|
I mean I actually agree it could have been handled better and it's stupid for Dijkstra to monologue and tell Geralt "hey you mind popping out for a bit while I kill these dudes"? but Nilfgaard conquering the rest of the North (minus presumably Kovir and the Hengfors League and maybe some inconsequential places like Cidaris is explicit.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 01:42
|
|
|
I'm pretty sure in my ending Radovid kicked Nilfgaard the gently caress out of the new Human North...
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 01:45
|
|
|
You're right, they do do that if Radovid and Djikstra are dead and Nilfgaard win the war. Which I already said and isn't the point I'm trying to make. Do you remember the ending where Ciri becomes a Witcher and Nilfgaard wins? Not the slides; the actual ending stuff when you're travelling to meet Ciri. You see Nilfgaard packing up and leaving for home. The Emperor also tells you they're leaving and he never wants to see you again. Yes, they conquer the north if they win. I literally never said they did not do this and it has nothing to do with what I said in the first place.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 01:46
|
|
|
I don't even know what your point is any more honestly, beyond "it's dumb". My point was Dijkstra is right and Nilfgaard cannot be bargained with in good faith, as evidenced by them not actually accepting the Pontar as a border counter to the deal Vattier de Redeaux made with Thaler and Roche if you don't let Dijkstra do his thing. You seemed to object to this very strongly and I'm still not sure why, including asserting that in fact the exact opposite happens, then saying you never said that and it has nothing to do with anything.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 01:49
|
|
|
That was never my point in the first place and you're the one who told me I was wrong and then went into that stuff, which I never mentioned.  I never said Djikstra was right or wrong; I said he was dumb in how he handled the situation. I never said that Nilfgaard doesn't win the war no matter what; I said that they physically leave after the game is over, at least for a time, which leave Djikstra free to gather his power (which he does if you kill Radovid and side with him). I said he was dumb to not try to negotiate with Roche because it seems clear to me (and it is fine if you disagree on this point because it is not based in fact) that, since Roche was willing to deal with Nilfgaard, it makes no sense that he would not be willing to deal with Djikstra or work under him if it comes down to a choice between the two. You want to say that Roche would never go for it if Temaria wasn't self governed and Djikstra wouldn't allow for that? You could very well be right, hypothetical person that I'm pretending made this claim. But the problem with the scene, at least in my mind, is that Djikstra doesn't even try to bargain or talk it through before pulling out a loving halberd or whatever. Then he makes you choose because this is a video game, and a video game needs A Choice™. I literally never said that Nilfgaard can't win the war; I'm saying that, with Djikstra alive, they don't no matter what else you do. And their victory comes down to this choice, which is poorly presented and out of character for an allegedly smart man like Djikstra. He could have at least waited until you'd left or something. Killed them when they were going home and it couldn't be traced back to him. Something The only thing I can tell that we disagreed on was my calling him dumb once. Notice that when I said that I did not actually disagree with you on your point about the Pontar. Then you misconstrued what I said about Nilfgaard leaving for like six posts.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 02:04
|
|
|
Here's what you saidManatee Cannon posted:The ending proves him dumb because Nilfgaard leaves the north no matter what. Even when they win as much as is possible, they still all pack up and head for home. It's wrong. They do not pack up and leave for home. They annex the rest of the north and garrison Novigrad and Tretogor at the least. They only leave Temeria. Which is counter to part of your original point, which you seem to now be claiming you never made, on WHY Dijkstra is dumb, and in fact is evidence in favor of his view of things. And no, I don't think Roche is remotely susceptible to a calm reasoned debate. And I have made that claim. I support this via his characterization in TW2, where he's a highly emotional hothead that does things like punch peasants that complain to him about military vandalism, tortures civilians to death that hold sensitive information before he can actually get said information out of them simply because they insulted him, and goes on a suicide run against the Kaedweni army. You might, if you got Thaler to lean on him, get him to change his mind, days later. But they don't have days. Yes, Emhyr is still in Vizima...but Dijkstra's apparatus and the Redanian army are limited by all the same logistical limitations as Nilfgaard's. More, actually, since they don't have a bunch of mage support. Orders given out immediately won't be carried out for days or even weeks, if they're addressed to people in Kaedwen. Time is very much of the essence.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 02:13
|
|
|
You are an absolute nightmare, dude That quote of mine doesn't contradict anything I've said since. I've not contradicted myself and I have said nothing factually incorrect. If you want to believe otherwise that's your prerogative.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 02:19
|
|
|
Where's it mentioned that the Pontar was meant to be the new border? I thought Djikstra's objection to the whole thing was that Temeria got nominal independence at the expense of the rest of the Northern kingdoms, and he doesn't want to sell out his country that way. "We insisted on one realm's questionable sovereignty. And to recover it, we gave Emhyr virtually all of the North's other kingdoms. It was not a wise arragement, so no deal." Aedirn is hardly "virtually all of the North's other kingdoms". His saying "you should understand because you too are a patriot" to Roche doesn't make much sense if the agreement let Redania retain complete independence. Aesaar fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Aug 18, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 02:35
|
|
|
I'll have to replay that part but I 'm pretty sure I remember they do specify Nilfgaard withdrawing beyond the Pontar as a treaty term. Manatee Cannon posted:You are an absolute nightmare, dude If you could buy me that as big red text I'd really appreciate it. My posts just don't have the zest they used to without the avatar.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 02:46
|
|
|
The Sharmat posted:I don't think Nilfgaard knows the details about any of this. I may be remembering wrong, but wasn't the next part of the plan after killing Radovid to get Thaler to return to the Nilfgaard emissary to sign off on the final deal? With Djikstra dead, that threw all the non-Temarian stuff out the window because they no longer had the guy able to run all the logistics/infrastructure etc needed to run the rest of the North, the details of which were probably going to be hammered out as part of the final deal? Now it's entirely possible I'm just completely misremembering/making up that aspect of things, but regardless of anything else I think everybody agrees that Djikstra was stupid and short-sighted to try and pull the poo poo he did at the time he did whether he was successful or not. In any case, your following point is absolutely valid: The Sharmat posted:And it's not like Emhyr hasn't renegged on deals like this before. It's kind of a pattern with him, actually. He already did it in the Second Northern War. It's probably pretty drat difficult/foolish to try and make a deal with a guy who essentially holds all the cards and is used to getting his own way all the time.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 02:48
|
|
|
The Sharmat posted:
Right? I interpret it as Roche had Ves there ready to kill Geralt the moment he acted up.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 02:58
|
|
|
The Sharmat posted:I'll have to replay that part but I 'm pretty sure I remember they do specify Nilfgaard withdrawing beyond the Pontar as a treaty term. Maybe if you talk to them later, but here's the scene at the end of Reason of State (do not take these links if you haven't beaten the game): https://youtu.be/-A-qhdraJJU?t=16m4s They don't don't specify anything in the quest itself, at least not with the dialog choices made here. And in the ending where Nilfgaard wins: https://youtu.be/ZxwV4C9Da_U?list=PLrYsj_Il7VSukkIC-U8S4luA04pWpBjpg It's not mentioned. or at least not by name. "Other fronts" could be a lot of things I guess. In Emhyr's epilogue: https://youtu.be/w1DZSFWVFsI?list=PLrYsj_Il7VSukkIC-U8S4luA04pWpBjpg It doesn't mention the Pontar. In the ending where Ciri becomes Empress: https://youtu.be/Y7N-JwzTO5M?list=PLrYsj_Il7VSukkIC-U8S4luA04pWpBjpg The Pontar still isn't mentioned. I haven't seen every ending or dialog option though, so obviously it could be somewhere I haven't looked. I'm just not sure where to start. Can you even talk to Roche after Reason of State? I can't remember trying. fake edit: poo poo, I hosed up the time stamps on most of them. Well whatever, it's not like it's hard to skip to the bit you want to see. Manatee Cannon fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Aug 18, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 03:16
|
|
|
Aesaar posted:Aedirn is hardly "virtually all of the North's other kingdoms". His saying "you should understand because you too are a patriot" to Roche doesn't make much sense if the agreement let Redania retain complete independence. Aedirn, Sodden, Brugge, Verden, Lyria, Rivia, all likely affected. The games mostly focus on Temeria, Aedirn, Kaedwen, and Redania, but there's plenty of other Kingdoms in the North. Jerusalem posted:I may be remembering wrong, but wasn't the next part of the plan after killing Radovid to get Thaler to return to the Nilfgaard emissary to sign off on the final deal? With Djikstra dead, that threw all the non-Temarian stuff out the window because they no longer had the guy able to run all the logistics/infrastructure etc needed to run the rest of the North, the details of which were probably going to be hammered out as part of the final deal? Yeah I think that was probably the plan now that you mention it. I can't blame Dijkstra for not wanting that to happen though. It was dumb the way he did it though. seriously dude, just wait for Geralt to walk off and bring like 20 more men. Maybe he wanted to impress Geralt with his knowledge of theater. Nilfgaards MO when dealing with the North since the first war has always been divide and conquer, in the books and the games. JetsGuy posted:Right? I interpret it as Roche had Ves there ready to kill Geralt the moment he acted up. Yeah I just want Ves to do more stuff in this game. She's cool. Really needs to finish fastening that gambeson though.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 03:17
|
|
|
Manatee Cannon posted:Can you even talk to Roche after Reason of State? I think he says to come see him at his camp if you want, but somebody else mentioned earlier in the thread that when they tried to go see him for the Gwent Cards quest they weren't able to interact with him. Mostly unrelated, but post-endgame are the main characters gone from the world? I still had that Soldier Statue quest to do with Triss but it kept screwing up while she was staying at Dandelion's, and now I can't find her in the game to see if I can wrap it up.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 03:20
|
|
|
Actually, rewatching that first video Thaler does mention Aedirn and Lyria. I was just listening for the word Pontar while playing Binding of Isaac in the background.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 03:21
|
|
|
Manatee Cannon posted:Maybe if you talk to them later, but here's the scene at the end of Reason of State (do not take these links if you haven't beaten the game): Ok yeah here's the source of confusion. It doesn't mention the Pontar by name, but it's implicit. The other front is Eastern Kaedwen, as seen on the various maps in the game. The treaty terms were that Nilfgaard keep Aedirn and Lyria-Rivia, and makes truce with Redania and Kaedwen. That means they'd have to withdraw beyond the Pontar. Unless "truce" means "Unconditional surrender including you garrisoning our capital cities".
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 03:22
|
|
|
Rizzo Crackers posted:Put together one of my Alternative Launch Trailers for the game. It took bloody ages to make. Hope you folks like it. That's really badass man.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 03:29
|
|
|
The Sharmat posted:Ok yeah here's the source of confusion. It doesn't mention the Pontar by name, but it's implicit. The other front is Eastern Kaedwen, as seen on the various maps in the game. The treaty terms were that Nilfgaard keep Aedirn and Lyria-Rivia, and makes truce with Redania and Kaedwen. That means they'd have to withdraw beyond the Pontar. Unless "truce" means "Unconditional surrender including you garrisoning our capital cities". Anyway, given that he's dead when the final deal was supposed to be signed, I don't think there's anyone there to speak for Redania, so maybe Nilfgaard only ended up making peace with Temeria. Or maybe you're right and Emhyr just decided "gently caress it". Probably both.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 03:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 10:36 |
|
|
That's the thing. I'm arguing that the whole point of Dijkstra doing that is he doesn't believe that Nilfgaard will hold up their end of the bargain, and is just exploiting internal divisions in the North to forge separate peaces then screw them all. As they've done before, several times, in the books and games.
|
|
#
?
Aug 18, 2015 03:37
|
|