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FrozenVent posted:That completely discounts the value of having a car for he period where he had it. The commenter is also BWM if that's how he does his accounting. But the value of having a car depends on where you live/work, if you need to drive to stores, etc. I drive my (paid off) car once every two to three weeks, so the value of having one is exactly what I'm paying, nothing. Of course, when I worked a 30 minute drive from home with no public transit, it was a different story.
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Aug 15, 2015 15:16
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Sure, but on the other hand, he put 8k down and now has only 3k of sports car equity.
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Aug 15, 2015 19:38
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Classic run-of-the-mill BWM (from reddit of course)quote:Bills are like cancer though. They sense money and grow accordingly.
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Aug 16, 2015 03:55
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Switchback posted:Classic run-of-the-mill BWM (from reddit of course) Once I spend all my money I have no money. I really don't have any more money than people who make half what I do after I spend it all. It's not fair. 
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Aug 16, 2015 05:43
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I want to invest but my religion expressly forbids me from taking interest.quote:Backstory: Muslims are expressly forbidden from ever taking or paying interest. This is important. quote:religion > money imo. One of the few points I won't compromise on. 
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Aug 16, 2015 11:06
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I don't get it... Why would a 401k or IRA not be ok, so long as all of the money goes in to stocks that aren't haram?
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Aug 16, 2015 14:27
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Yeah for a 19 year old kid that sounds like all good with money and life instincts, just a lack of knowledge
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Aug 16, 2015 14:30
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Dividends are probably fine, since you're basically a part-owner of a business and receiving a share of the profits. He might just be confused, he's probably fine investing in anything but collateralized debt obligations or mortgage tranches or what have you. His investments can grow in value, he can receive money from them, they just need to avoid a very specific and narrowly defined thing he is calling interest. I'm pretty sure muslims can buy a financial instrument and get money back, the idea is that you don't give loans that require interest. So actually that might be a better way of looking at it, not "I need to avoid interest" but "I need to avoid giving loans". Being part owner of something is fine.
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Aug 16, 2015 14:39
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It's all stupid word games and there is an elaborate system of Islamic banking designed to skirt the fact that economies cannot function without some expression and compensation for the time value of money, whether you call it interest, a fee, or a gift in gratitude for making a loan.
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Aug 16, 2015 14:49
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BEHOLD: MY CAPE posted:It's all stupid word games and there is an elaborate system of Islamic banking designed to skirt the fact that economies cannot function without some expression and compensation for the time value of money, whether you call it interest, a fee, or a gift in gratitude for making a loan. Literally just googled "islamic mutual funds" and was given pages of funds that invest in Halal securities.
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Aug 16, 2015 15:53
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Those are two separate things, neither of you is wrong. Halal funds do exist (with mostly sub par returns and higher management fees) and banking/financial systems charge interest in all but name (higher sticker price equal to total interest payment, gifts, etc).
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Aug 16, 2015 19:13
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BEHOLD: MY CAPE posted:Now someone come in and make the exact same argument about paying rent to turn $X into $0 and ignite a shitstorm Buying groceries is for suckers. I spend a hundred bucks on them and within a week, they've literally turned to poo poo. With depreciation like that how did we ever let Big Food get us addicted?
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Aug 16, 2015 20:43
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last laugh posted:Literally just googled "islamic mutual funds" Say hello to your new pal at the NSA. 
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Aug 16, 2015 22:28
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BEHOLD: MY CAPE posted:Now someone come in and make the exact same argument about paying rent to turn $X into $0 and ignite a shitstorm Remember: current utility does not exist in Economagic Land
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Aug 17, 2015 18:25
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Pompous Rhombus posted:Say hello to your new pal at the NSA. "Our CD rates will make you say 'God is Great'!" I wonder if Saudi's make jokes about camel equity.
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Aug 17, 2015 18:43
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Probably not, camels are actually useful. Sand equity, however...
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Aug 17, 2015 22:27
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last laugh posted:Literally just googled "islamic mutual funds" and was given pages of funds that invest in Halal securities. I was the same at his age, interest it is haram! But then my parents bought a house using a mortgage. Still my parents believed interest is haram! My brother got a rent to buy car which ended up costing him 10k more instead of just getting a loan. From the beginning I realised that inflation eats away at your savings but ever time I googled about how to deal with interest and inflation I read the same junk: inflation is a result of interest and both are haram . You're not even allowed to receive interest to counter inflation. I've always wondered if religious people get upset when they see prices go up. It gets fairly interesting when the word for interest in arabic translates to usury (excessive prices) but interest is haram!Also the reason he won't invest in those managed funds is because they probably invest in banks or "haram" companies. Even if a company sells alcohol or pig products, it's haram. P.S  says he looks at porn.
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Aug 18, 2015 01:57
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Suspicious Lump posted:Haha this is great! I never knew this existed. It took a long time before interest and banking became acceptable to Christians. Work arounds to bend the rules were used a lot including foreign exchange fees (which just concealed interest as the fees related to the length of the loan). My sister moans about usury a lot but she still has a mortgage but is at least heavily focused on repaying debts. Although for some reason she paid off a 0% student loan first. I don't know what she was thinking with that. 
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Aug 18, 2015 02:12
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Devian666 posted:It took a long time before interest and banking became acceptable to Christians. Work arounds to bend the rules were used a lot including foreign exchange fees (which just concealed interest as the fees related to the length of the loan). On the topic of interest becoming acceptable to Muslims; it's moving that way but in a very odd direction. The first bank my parents went with for the mortgage was an "islamic" bank which actually derived all its income streams from the big 4 banks in Australia. They charged a crazy 12% interest, of course this was around the time the interest rate was dropping but they weren't passing off the savings. Once my dad realised he was getting screwed (like 6% screwed) he changed banks. The loving loan manager calls him up and begs for my dad to change his mind ("brother how could you do this to me") but my dad being a stubborn arab (god bless that side) refused even when offered 4% reduction. He went to the big 4, got a variable interest rate and just this year paid everything off. gently caress MCCA they are cunts. So the point of this story? Muslims are starting to realise that interest is intrinsic part of our economy and have started to device ways of ripping their fellow brethren by wording the loans differently and charging them 50% more. Ironic how this is acceptable but standard rates are considered usury. One of the few good things about my family is their lack of debit, but their opportunity for mobility is hindered. Only in numbers do they overcome it (i.e we all actually chipped into the mortgage, all 5 kids).
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Aug 18, 2015 07:44
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Basically they are taking advantage Muslims knowing they have no other options to turn to. It's pretty lovely and people should turn on people charging 12% as that is usury and exploitation.
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Aug 18, 2015 10:21
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Suspicious Lump posted:Ironic how this is acceptable but standard rates are considered usury. Er... Are you expecting the bank to process all the religious paperwork for no additional fee? How will that work? They simply eat the cost as part of customer goodwill and hope to capture sufficient market share to recoup their cost? How about for Islamic banks that only does this business, for which all their loans require additional processing? Seems pretty straightforward to me that if you want a special product that is not the standard default offering, that you get charged extra.
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Aug 18, 2015 13:52
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6% extra over the life of the mortgage is not an acceptable price for "filing religious paperwork"
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Aug 18, 2015 13:56
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John Smith posted:Er... Are you expecting the bank to process all the religious paperwork for no additional fee? How will that work? They simply eat the cost as part of customer goodwill and hope to capture sufficient market share to recoup their cost? How about for Islamic banks that only does this business, for which all their loans require additional processing? You just might be bad with money yourself if that rate seems reasonable.
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Aug 18, 2015 14:00
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Especially since the idea behind the religious doctrine is to keep people from getting screwed on loans, and instead these people actually get MORE screwed than the average person.
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Aug 18, 2015 14:11
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What religious paperwork needs to be filed?
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Aug 18, 2015 14:13
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things you wouldn't understand, don't worry we have a cleric who got the finest degree available at ITT tech, he'll be handling all of this to make sure God is okay with it.
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Aug 18, 2015 14:27
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Erdogan in turkey often makes noises to the effect that the only interest rate in turkey should be zero. As in, the central bank one. Bad with central banking.
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Aug 18, 2015 15:25
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:What religious paperwork needs to be filed? If you mess those up, you might lose Allah your money.
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Aug 18, 2015 15:36
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Dawncloack posted:Erdogan in turkey often makes noises to the effect that the only interest rate in turkey should be zero. As in, the central bank one. Bad with central banking. So like the US?
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Aug 18, 2015 15:59
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No Butt Stuff posted:6% extra over the life of the mortgage is not an acceptable price for "filing religious paperwork" ohgodwhat posted:You just might be bad with money yourself if that rate seems reasonable. Did not claim that it was a decent rate. He should indeed seek out a better deal, little doubt about that. My issue is with the implicit notion that Islamic banks should not charge, or at least not highly, for attending to the religious paperwork. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:What religious paperwork needs to be filed? You need to structure the loans a certain way, and you need to hire religious personnel to ensure compliance. It is also somewhat common to seek accreditation or endorsement from a reputable religious council. All these involves significant paperwork and labour costs. I feel that the general tone of posts is very disrespectful towards the compliance of Islamic law. It is reasonable to mock these Muslims for insisting on compliance within our modern world. I feel it is not reasonable to mock the significant burden involved in compliance. After all, if they willing choose to accept it, that is their decision.
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Aug 18, 2015 16:19
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I think most people here are really interested in islamic law in regards to investment. It's really interesting that you'd feel the need to defend poor rates and their criticism as religious disrespect though. You are fine to believe whatever you want but you cant walk into a money forum and ignore the math as the more important factor of discussion.
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Aug 18, 2015 16:33
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Chin Strap posted:If you mess those up, you might lose Allah your money. New thread title please
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Aug 18, 2015 16:36
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Mutual fund managers, stock brokers and financial advisers have a lot of paperwork to fill out too.
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Aug 18, 2015 16:38
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John Smith posted:Did not claim that it was a decent rate. He should indeed seek out a better deal, little doubt about that. My issue is with the implicit notion that Islamic banks should not charge, or at least not highly, for attending to the religious paperwork. I don't think we're mocking the Muslims getting the 'loans' as much as the banks who are ripping them off. There's no way 'religious paperwork' accounts for a 6% premium on a mortgage. The bank isn't crafting an artisanal loan, conferring with religious leaders on behalf of each applicant. They have template. That template may very well have cost more than standard documentation. But still it was a fixed cost that they can now use tens of thousands of times. The only reason these banks can charge those kinds of fees is because they have a clientele with no place else to go. So they're little better than a movie theater concession stand or a title pawn.
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Aug 18, 2015 16:41
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Organic, home-grown, grass-fed hipster loans.
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Aug 18, 2015 16:57
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I work in finance, in the US. A Muslim coworker explained to me that the interpretation he believed in could be simply explained as no compound interest. His car loan was provided by a Muslim lender. A flat $300 + $20 monthly financing fee across the fixed term of the loan, with no "discount" for early payoff. The fee was calculated based on market interest rates. He said that interpretation satisfied most of his peers and family members. Seems like a fair treatment, I think.
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Aug 18, 2015 17:43
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Good with sanity- putting John Smith on ignore. He's an antagonistic contrarian rear end who isn't even funny.
Blinkman987 fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Aug 18, 2015 |
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Aug 18, 2015 18:00
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canyoneer posted:I work in finance, in the US. A Muslim coworker explained to me that the interpretation he believed in could be simply explained as no compound interest. Isn't this how all non-bank auto financing works? The interest is baked in, and no discount for early payoff?
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Aug 18, 2015 19:44
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...no?
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Aug 18, 2015 19:50
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No Butt Stuff posted:...no? You can have penalties for early payoff if you got a special rate/price for financing through the dealership. But the penalty phase expires relatively quickly. There are loans where they load up interest early on, kind of like a home mortgage. Maybe that's what he's thinking about?
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Aug 18, 2015 20:10
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