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ActusRhesus posted:However, in your model you would need to be prepared for the fact some people will never meet the rehabilitative criteria. Are you OK giving someone an indefinite prison sentence? How is that different from our current 'life without possibility of parole' or even in the care of a life sentence with the possibility of parole? They seem functionally similar.
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Aug 20, 2015 16:08
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ActusRhesus posted:However, in your model you would need to be prepared for the fact some people will never meet the rehabilitative criteria. Are you OK giving someone an indefinite prison sentence? It's better than life without parole or the death penalty.
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Aug 20, 2015 16:14
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ActusRhesus posted:However, in your model you would need to be prepared for the fact some people will never meet the rehabilitative criteria. Are you OK giving someone an indefinite prison sentence?
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Aug 20, 2015 16:39
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I can understand AR's wariness of introducing indefinite sentencing into a justice system like ours that has a proven racial bias and serious problems with conflict of interest regarding for-profit prisons.
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Aug 20, 2015 16:44
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VitalSigns posted:I can understand AR's wariness of introducing indefinite sentencing into a justice system like ours that has a proven racial bias and serious problems with conflict of interest regarding for-profit prisons. Pretty much. I disagree with you on the scope of the racial bias. But I agree it's out there, and even the most well meaning sentence review will have subconscious biases and see "educated, good family support, etc" as more. "Rehabilitable" than "no education, broken family, no outside support system" so the people who will benefit will be affluent. I'm extremely leery of the idea of an indefinite prison term across the board.
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Aug 20, 2015 16:56
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twodot posted:Can you describe the specific problem with this? There will be people who we are never sure should be reintroduced to society. That's sad, but the solution isn't to reintroduce them to society anyways because an arbitrary time span has passed. I suppose there's an argument that having concrete timelines aids rehabilitation, but I think that would need to be substantiated. Who gets to decide when a person is ready for release and upon what criteria? We already have this to an extent in parole boards. But at least there's a cap. This seems really prone to abuse.
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Aug 20, 2015 16:57
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VitalSigns posted:I can understand AR's wariness of introducing indefinite sentencing into a justice system like ours that has a proven racial bias and serious problems with conflict of interest regarding for-profit prisons. Yes, but that implies that there would be more discretion and ability to gently caress with people's durations than the current system. Which, while true in theory, I don't think is true in practice.
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Aug 20, 2015 16:58
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ActusRhesus posted:Who gets to decide when a person is ready for release and upon what criteria? Isn't this exactly what we do with parole boards and the medical boards that put people back on conditional release when civilly detained? Honestly you just come off as obtuse by asking for specifics you know you aren't going to get out of this thread. Of course he isn't going to know the proper make-up of the "board of professionals" or whatever you want to call it that generates the criteria on which a person is deemed safe to release back into society, but certain standards have already been set. I work at a detainment facility for violent sexual offenders, and as far as I can tell none of them should EVER be released. In fact, the place acts as a life sentence by introducing standards of rehabilitation they will never meet.
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Aug 20, 2015 17:03
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ActusRhesus posted:Because I hardly think "ship the foreign prisoners to another country where they don't speak the language, won't benefit from our praised rehabilitation services and won't be able to get family visitation" is a great model. Not to mention it woul violate US equal protection laws. Except the deal requires the prisons to use Norwegian guards for the Norwegian prisoners so your line of attack is not even valid. And I don't see where US equal protection laws apply to Norwegian prisoners. Again, it is not like I think what Norway is specifically doing here is the best thing to do, but you are trying to dismiss the results of the entire system by attacking a specific piece that is not optimal.
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Aug 20, 2015 17:11
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Uroboros posted:Isn't this exactly what we do with parole boards and the medical boards that put people back on conditional release when civilly detained? Honestly you just come off as obtuse by asking for specifics you know you aren't going to get out of this thread. Of course he isn't going to know the proper make-up of the "board of professionals" or whatever you want to call it that generates the criteria on which a person is deemed safe to release back into society, but certain standards have already been set. I work at a detainment facility for violent sexual offenders, and as far as I can tell none of them should EVER be released. In fact, the place acts as a life sentence by introducing standards of rehabilitation they will never meet. I think the point is more that this doesn't really add anything to the existing parole system other than removing a maximum prison duration, which isn't really a good thing. Of course there are also issues to the parole system (when people are released, anyway), so comparing them might be more fruitful discussion.
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Aug 20, 2015 17:12
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archangelwar posted:Except the deal requires the prisons to use Norwegian guards for the Norwegian prisoners so your line of attack is not even valid. And I don't see where US equal protection laws apply to Norwegian prisoners. No. Norweigan director, supervising Dutch wardens. That is one of the chief complaints. And I'm not saying EP applies to Norway. It's because they don't have EP that they can get away with shipping away prisoners based on nationality, which frankly is appalling. ActusRhesus fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Aug 20, 2015 |
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Aug 20, 2015 17:14
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computer parts posted:I think the point is more that this doesn't really add anything to the existing parole system other than removing a maximum prison duration, which isn't really a good thing. Yes. That was the point. I'm glad someone doesn't find it obtuse.
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Aug 20, 2015 17:15
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ActusRhesus posted:Who gets to decide when a person is ready for release and upon what criteria? We already have this to an extent in parole boards. But at least there's a cap. This seems really prone to abuse. Just to make this clear, the forvaring is given in Norway to criminals who in the US you would be completely unsurprised to see get life, life without parole, and death as their sentences. The sentence is, if anything, more lenient than a life sentence in the US is. Some people who have been sentenced to this in the last ten years are already out. I agree with your point that the people in charge of deciding who gets out will have biases and that would be a problem, especially if this were the maximum sentence in our racist society here. But it's not. Our third harshest sentence is by definition no better than this one, and the other two are, by definition, worse. Are you willing to apply your same criticisms of an indefinite sentence's problems to our own indefinite sentence, and our own definite, infinite, sentences?
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Aug 20, 2015 17:26
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ActusRhesus posted:No. Norweigan director, supervising Dutch wardens. That is one of the chief complaints. You are correct, my mistake, 'Norwegian supervision' only requires a minor Norwegian presence. However, you are using this as an excuse to dismiss the rest of the Norwegian system. Do you feel that the US has nothing to learn from the Norwegian justice system?
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Aug 20, 2015 17:26
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computer parts posted:I think the point is more that this doesn't really add anything to the existing parole system other than removing a maximum prison duration, which isn't really a good thing. With our current system of not giving a poo poo about rehabilitation of any useful sort, and wasting all our funds merely keeping up with the huge number of drug incarcerations then "yes" it is a terrible idea. I thought the other guy was arguing that if you actually focus on rehabilitation at all levels, then the idea of someone receiving life in prison because they don't meet the standard becomes less frightening, because we have been working with these guys for years, and the really irredeemable individuals sky-lined themselves years ago. Then again I feel giving a mass murderer, like Brevik, anything other the death penalty(or at least exile) to be a preposterous farce of justice, so I might be all over the board here. I tend to segregate violent and non-violent crime rather starkly in that I feel we are performing an awful crime with our War on Drugs and the millions who's lives have been ruined by non-violent drug felonies, keep in mind I just finished "The New Jim Crow" on recommendation of this forum, so my blood is up at this point in time. At the same time, when it comes to violent criminals, especially repeat offenders, whether they be murderers/rapists etc. my tendency to invoke some sort of draconian punishment goes up greatly. I suppose in light of some of these crimes I truly don't understand opposition to the death penalty on purely moral grounds, I can understand opposing it due its flawed implementation, but never purely on the notion that the state does not have the right to take the lives of its greatest criminals. TheArmorOfContempt fucked around with this message at 17:55 on Aug 20, 2015 |
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Aug 20, 2015 17:39
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So you and I are actually on the same page, except I'll do you one better and say most drug offenders should get AR and programs...which is what we do. Mid level? Special parole. The perception here about the scores of people wasting away in jail for smoking some weed does not match up to how things are done here. I can't speak for everywhere though.
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Aug 20, 2015 17:52
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archangelwar posted:Can I see your source? Not that I don't believe you, since you seem to be carefully choosing your words, but I want to compare that to other literature I see. Also, as has been alluded to, recidivism as you have defined is not the only metric of a (more) successful rehabilitation system; and if it is to be believed that some people are simply career criminals, it is possible to contrast and compare systems with identical recidivism rates. Posted a little earlier in the thread by me. I'm on my phone so I am not finding them again or finding my post - should be easy for you to locate. The Norwegian statistics require some interpretation because they release reimprisonment rates, not reoffense rates, and their system uses prison far less frequently as a punishment, so to determine a recidivism rate based on new punishment for new act, you have to factor in the non-imprisonment punishments as well. Similarly, for US rates you have to factor out reimprisonment for parole violations that aren't due to new criminal acts.
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Aug 20, 2015 18:13
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Kalman posted:Posted a little earlier in the thread by me. I'm on my phone so I am not finding them again or finding my post - should be easy for you to locate. The Norwegian statistics require some interpretation because they release reimprisonment rates, not reoffense rates, and their system uses prison far less frequently as a punishment, so to determine a recidivism rate based on new punishment for new act, you have to factor in the non-imprisonment punishments as well. Similarly, for US rates you have to factor out reimprisonment for parole violations that aren't due to new criminal acts. Yeah, I was checking back through your links, but frankly at that point (as I mentioned earlier) we are reducing recidivism down to a metric that is not particularly representative of what people intend when the talk about recidivism and the success of a justice system. And you are absolutely correct in that it has more to do with the differences in how justice is handled, which is why I prefer a broader look at social outcomes.
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Aug 20, 2015 18:24
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Yeah. I was posting that to point out to chitoryu that his idea that reoffense has much of anything to do with prison is wrong, and his idea that it's any better elsewhere is as well. What does that tell us? Not much! What *is* a useful statistic is that in Norway, if you find a post-prison job, you are only ~30% likely to reoffend, while if you fail to, you're ~75% likely to reoffend. (stats from memory so I may be off by a bit but it was a wide disparity.) Basically, the stats imply that what happens in prison doesn't matter very much (if at all) compared to one simple thing afterwards: job or no job. A WPA for former convicts would probably be the single most effective solution to recidivism we could come up with, even if we kept our prisons exactly the same otherwise.
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Aug 20, 2015 18:53
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Dead Reckoning posted:She didn't get tased, her son did. After her "attack," she literally got up off the gurney to have another go at the arresting officers. Aaah so he did! That was right after the cop got his panties in a bunch and attacked him, and right before he got punched in the face while on the ground, and like what, a minute before being he got choked? But ya as a medical professional (lol jk) she's fine I can tell thats a thing I know
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Aug 20, 2015 19:13
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Kalman posted:Yeah. I was posting that to point out to chitoryu that his idea that reoffense has much of anything to do with prison is wrong, and his idea that it's any better elsewhere is as well. I think that might be simplifying it a bit too much because I think part of the success is due to public perception and acceptance. A WPA for ex-convicts program in the US might not be as successful without changing cultural perceptions, and I certainly think that current norms might result in a WPA program that is poorly designed, such as one where uniforms are required, pay is intentionally low, or some other form of otherization or stigmatization is allowed to creep into the program. Certainly this should not stop us from trying, but I do feel that the US needs to put extra effort into these areas and apply broader learned lessons from other cultures.
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Aug 20, 2015 19:24
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ActusRhesus posted:So you and I are actually on the same page, except I'll do you one better and say most drug offenders should get AR and programs...which is what we do. Mid level? Special parole. The perception here about the scores of people wasting away in jail for smoking some weed does not match up to how things are done here. I can't speak for everywhere though. Trying to catch up since I admittedly didn't read back a lot and just kind of jumped in. Are you saying there aren't a large number of people in prison/jail for minor drug offenses, or just where you actually work? My understanding from my most recent book is that three-strikes laws did result in a large number of people being given ridiculous sentences for very minor offenses, but it also mentioned most drug offenses do result in people being released, but even that minor brush with the law pretty much sets you on a path of surveillance and being disadvantaged in numerous ways. Add in the fact that most police attention is focused on ghetto neighborhoods and you end up with over 90% of drug convictions being against minorities despite equal rates of drug use across all ethnicities. sugar free jazz posted:Aaah so he did! That was right after the cop got his panties in a bunch and attacked him, and right before he got punched in the face while on the ground, and like what, a minute before being he got choked? The police response in that video seemed pretty measured considering how belligerent the people were attacking. Yeah, the cop shouldn't of got up and went at the guy, maintaining your professionalism and not letting yourself be goaded is pretty important, but considering all the borderline murders and other poo poo we see posted this was pretty tame, and these people come off as irate assholes from the videos onset. TheArmorOfContempt fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Aug 20, 2015 |
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Aug 20, 2015 19:36
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A moment in jail or a moment going through bullshit drug programs is perpetuating poverty and inequality, and drawing innocent people deeper into the system.
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Aug 20, 2015 19:39
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archangelwar posted:I think that might be simplifying it a bit too much because I think part of the success is due to public perception and acceptance. A WPA for ex-convicts program in the US might not be as successful without changing cultural perceptions, and I certainly think that current norms might result in a WPA program that is poorly designed, such as one where uniforms are required, pay is intentionally low, or some other form of otherization or stigmatization is allowed to creep into the program. Certainly this should not stop us from trying, but I do feel that the US needs to put extra effort into these areas and apply broader learned lessons from other cultures. I don't know if we're really comparing apples to apples in that case, though. Like, in the US welfare featured massive amounts of support until the stereotype of "welfare recipient" changed from white to black. I don't have information on Norway's prison demographics, but I suspect that association is that of a poor white person who (to borrow from earlier discussion) made a mistake.
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Aug 20, 2015 19:41
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SedanChair posted:A moment in jail or a moment going through bullshit drug programs is perpetuating poverty and inequality, and drawing innocent people deeper into the system. Pretty much this. Also, "off-topic" I still feel you had the best Avatar + Title combination with Uncle Penny Bags and the FCC monopoly on poo poo-posting comment. Not saying you're a bad poster, but it just always made me laugh when I saw it. My forum enjoyment has gone done since it was taken away. computer parts posted:I don't know if we're really comparing apples to apples in that case, though. It is safe to say that if the War on Drugs hadn't broken the budgets of so many States, and didn't have very noticeable effects on poor white communities, which ironically is likely due to a more honest application of police enforcement of drug laws, there would be little support for it ending. It is sad that in the face of what a colossal failure it has become that we still are moving so slowly to end it or at least curtail it. The notion that your average drug user is black happened right around the time that people began to perceive welfare recipients as black. TheArmorOfContempt fucked around with this message at 19:48 on Aug 20, 2015 |
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Aug 20, 2015 19:41
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Uroboros posted:The police response in that video seemed pretty measured considering how belligerent the people were attacking. Yeah, the cop shouldn't of got up and went at the guy, maintaining your professionalism and not letting yourself be goaded is pretty important, but considering all the borderline murders and other poo poo we see posted this was pretty tame, and these people come off as irate assholes from the videos onset. "Other things are worse" isn't a defense, and neither is "those people are assholes." Other things are always worse, and people are always assholes. I get that you probably think it's bad for the cops to be attacking people, but that poo poo isn't acceptable.
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Aug 20, 2015 19:54
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Kalman posted:Yeah. I was posting that to point out to chitoryu that his idea that reoffense has much of anything to do with prison is wrong, and his idea that it's any better elsewhere is as well. Is it wrong? It seems like Norway has placed a far greater emphasis (and money, of course) on pre-trial legal aid / defense for suspects, diversionary programs for youth and adult offenders, things that are all too often lacking unless one has the money to put up a fight with the justice system here. Really we'd need far more than simple statistics to compare very different systems. For example, and it would appear at least likely, if Norway imprisons far more serious and deserving offenders who were convicted under fairer circumstances, it would stand to reason recidivism rates would be higher or at least comparable, despite a more rehabilitative than retributive environment. I don't think it's reasonable to simply point at similar base statistics resulting from strikingly different systems of justice to be able to infer anything conclusive. For that matter, how many people wind up in harsh US prisons, constantly under a watchful eye, and figure out how to be a better criminal and not get caught. There's got to be far more in depth analysis than a surface deep comparison of base statistics to make any kind of comparison. If anyone is aware of such a study, or can find one, I'd love to take a gander.. haven't found much more than some vague articles and publications that don't really say much.
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Aug 20, 2015 20:08
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hobotrashcanfires posted:Is it wrong? Reoffense rates, not reimprisonment rates, so the proportion of prison vs non-prison initial and later disposition doesn't matter. It seems like no matter where you go, roughly 40-50% of people who are punished for one crime will be punished for a subsequent crime as well. There are minor differences depending on initial punishment that might line up with what you're talking about, but they're hard to find data on that can actually be compared across countries and do appear to be fairly minor. Ultimately I haven't seen anything to suggest that rehabilitation during punishment actually works (which surprised me - I assumed it would) but have seen data to suggest that changing their circumstances post-punishment does work. (I recognize my language on it may have been imprecise and occasionally implied outcomes based only on those initially in prison, rather than on those initially punished, as I intended to say.) Basically - if we had a choice between Norwegian style punishment with no guarantee of a job post prison, and American style punishment with a guaranteed job, data suggests the latter would be more effective. I'd want to see breakdowns on violent vs nonviolent criminals (my guess would be that the former show less of a job bias than the latter) and similar, but the idea of "rehabilitative" punishments seems kind of questionable.
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Aug 20, 2015 20:22
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sugar free jazz posted:"Other things are worse" isn't a defense, and neither is "those people are assholes." Other things are always worse, and people are always assholes. People aren't always assholes, and how you decide to conduct yourself whether you're a cop or the person being arrested makes a huge difference. If this video goes to court the chances of a jury or judge siding with you when you are the picture calm and collected versus being irate and verbally abusive means quite a bit. If the man had been measured and calm and the cop just came up and slugged him chances are you got a lawsuit in your favor, easy win, scream at the cop at the top of your lungs trying to provoke a fight, not an easy win. I don't know what prompted the whole dispute either. The video begins at the point the cop starts threatening the guy, there is already an ambulance along with other first responder personnel present, so something tells me this just isn't just the cops showed up to be dickheads. Was there a fight? What is going on in this situation?
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Aug 20, 2015 20:33
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Kalman posted:Reoffense rates, not reimprisonment rates, so the proportion of prison vs non-prison initial and later disposition doesn't matter. It seems like no matter where you go, roughly 40-50% of people who are punished for one crime will be punished for a subsequent crime as well. There are minor differences depending on initial punishment that might line up with what you're talking about, but they're hard to find data on that can actually be compared across countries and do appear to be fairly minor. Yeah, rehabilitation during punishment seems like it should work, or at least have a noticeable impact, it seems odd if that were the case. I do however have a lot of doubt about much of our prison system, and the culture it often generates out of pure necessity. There's got to be an impact there that some statistical analysis is missing. Obviously a lot of it boils down to where you got plucked out of to go into prison, which is almost always where you go back into. Job prospects post imprisonment makes sense, and may well be one of the biggest factors in recidivism. What's probably needed is a break down of prisons. Not every prison in the US is a travesty of confinement, but many are. I imagine you start running into serious psychological issues. Criminal A: Became more violent and more prone to crime. Criminal B: Became withdrawn, prone to substance abuse, and so on. How do you categorize someone broken by their confinement, or someone emboldened, or someone who just wants to walk the straight and narrow after surviving it? I find it very difficult to accept that a safer and more rehabilitative environment doesn't engender a more positive outcome. Though being able to have a job and discovering how to rejoin society still does make an awful lot of sense for creating a far greater likelihood of a positive outcome. Whatever you suffered through, or just existed safely through, be it retribution or rehabilitation, if you don't have something to fall back on it's going to be a lot harder.
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Aug 20, 2015 21:29
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Uroboros posted:People aren't always assholes, and how you decide to conduct yourself whether you're a cop or the person being arrested makes a huge difference. If this video goes to court the chances of a jury or judge siding with you when you are the picture calm and collected versus being irate and verbally abusive means quite a bit. If the man had been measured and calm and the cop just came up and slugged him chances are you got a lawsuit in your favor, easy win, scream at the cop at the top of your lungs trying to provoke a fight, not an easy win. I don't know what prompted the whole dispute either. The video begins at the point the cop starts threatening the guy, there is already an ambulance along with other first responder personnel present, so something tells me this just isn't just the cops showed up to be dickheads. Was there a fight? What is going on in this situation? Yeah no poo poo. language isn't always completely literal dude. In the video, cops were called because the woman thought her son was gonna commit suicide iirc
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Aug 20, 2015 22:08
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thatdarnedbob posted:Just to make this clear, the forvaring is given in Norway to criminals who in the US you would be completely unsurprised to see get life, life without parole, and death as their sentences. The sentence is, if anything, more lenient than a life sentence in the US is. Some people who have been sentenced to this in the last ten years are already out. I agree with your point that the people in charge of deciding who gets out will have biases and that would be a problem, especially if this were the maximum sentence in our racist society here. But it's not. Our third harshest sentence is by definition no better than this one, and the other two are, by definition, worse. Are you willing to apply your same criticisms of an indefinite sentence's problems to our own indefinite sentence, and our own definite, infinite, sentences? I highly doubt more than a half a percent or so would be unjustly refused parole.
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Aug 21, 2015 00:18
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semper wifi posted:Twitter shitposter (shitweeter?)/BLM activist Shaun King "exposed" as being white, http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/08/20/1413881/-Race-love-hate-and-me-A-distinctly-American-story In a surprise to noone with a functioning brain, this story is false and Breitbart is once again full of poo poo.
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Aug 21, 2015 01:43
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There's a Frontline episode on Netflix called "A Death in St. Augustine" and geez it's incredibly skeevy. It's the same sort of attitude as in Ferguson.
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Aug 21, 2015 02:00
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Py-O-My posted:http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/08/20/1413881/-Race-love-hate-and-me-A-distinctly-American-story So BLM has a single drop rule. WTF? This is a truly turned on its head world. Your genetics should not matter, your ideas should.
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Aug 21, 2015 02:15
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Skin color isn't a 100% indicator of race anyway. Pete Wentz is about half black and has a dark-skinned Jamaican mother and naturally curly hair, but is easily mistaken for a slightly tanned white guy. A former friend of mine is half Native American but by complete chance ended up with downright ghostly white skin.
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Aug 21, 2015 02:55
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Yeah what shocked me is people should know better than to trust that site but like everyone and their mother ran with it.
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Aug 21, 2015 03:11
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SedanChair posted:I wonder what you think this means? Can you explain? It was an interesting article on a guy whose tweets have been posted in here at least a few times so I posted it even though it was from Breitbart. In any case I don't think it means anything since the guy doesn't do anything but post on twitter, he could be exposed as a space alien and the effect would be the same. I guess if anything it makes BLM look bad just because of the fact that something like this even has the potential to cause problems. Py-O-My posted:http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/08/20/1413881/-Race-love-hate-and-me-A-distinctly-American-story I believe him, but really this is just "no guys im definitely black, my mom was a cheating whore" in way more words, compared to Breitbarts birth certificate and police report photos semper wifi fucked around with this message at 04:21 on Aug 21, 2015 |
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Aug 21, 2015 04:18
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semper wifi posted:It was an interesting article on a guy whose tweets have been posted in here at least a few times so I posted it even though it was from Breitbart. In any case I don't think it means anything since the guy doesn't do anything but post on twitter, he could be exposed as a space alien and the effect would be the same. lmao ^^^^^
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Aug 21, 2015 04:20
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sugar free jazz posted:lmao ^^^^^ 
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