Read Some Real Literature: Anyway hail satantango

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CestMoi: Sep 16, 2011

V. Illych L. posted:

here lies trigorin: he was a good author, but turgenev was better

really good line, chekhov also owns

I read my first CHekhov short story the other day and it was about a servant girl nanny who couldn't sleep and it was great.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 10:41

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# ? May 10, 2024 09:56

CestMoi: Sep 16, 2011

I've never read Labyrinths because I've got all the separate books that Labyrinths draws stuff from but looking at the stories on Wikipedia it's most of the really fantastic ones imo though it doesn't have a Survey of the Works of Herbert QUain which is a travesty imho also you won't get the cool sense of continuity where all the stories are loosely thematically similar.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 10:49

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

CestMoi posted:

I read my first CHekhov short story the other day and it was about a servant girl nanny who couldn't sleep and it was great.

those early ones are basically Reader's Digest anecdotes compared to stuff from after 1890

# ? Aug 21, 2015 11:39

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

I've always had trouble with Borges. Like, I get why he is good, but it just doesn't click for me.

It's a bunch of poorly developed character archetypes going "Hey, look at this super bizarre philosophical idea I found." The ideas are amazing, I am particularly found of the Book of Sand, but man I wish he would put in some actual human beings sometimes.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 14:31

Burning Rain: Jul 17, 2006; What's happening?!?!

i'm sure i will try reading borges again, because i was a loving child the previous time around, but i remembered that the abstractness made the stories boring for me too. then again, i still have trouble reading any philosophy book without yawning at every sentence. like, it's cool that you're trying to reason out the reasoning itself, but where's the action, man? throw at least a romantic scene in there, two lovers kissing by the waterfall of absurdity, or a benny hill chase sequence between the logic and truth or something.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 15:33

Hieronymous Alloy: Jan 30, 2009; Why! Why!! Why must you refuse to accept that Dr. Hieronymous Alloy's Genetically Enhanced Cream Corn Is Superior to the Leading Brand on the Market!?!; Morbid Hound

Mel Mudkiper posted:

I've always had trouble with Borges. Like, I get why he is good, but it just doesn't click for me.

It's a bunch of poorly developed character archetypes going "Hey, look at this super bizarre philosophical idea I found." The ideas are amazing, I am particularly found of the Book of Sand, but man I wish he would put in some actual human beings sometimes.

I have the inverse problem with Marquez. The characters are great, all these marvellous things happen, but it never crystallizes into an actual story I want to read; its just an inchoate blob of images. I think it's because I don't know enough South American history to catch how it all fits together and what it's referencing.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 15:38

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

i dont want to join this bandwagon of bad posters but I dont like borges either and find his flippant occult stuff pretty uninteresting aesthetically too

# ? Aug 21, 2015 15:39

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

I have the inverse problem with Marquez. The characters are great, all these marvellous things happen, but it never crystallizes into an actual story I want to read; its just an inchoate blob of images. I think it's because I don't know enough South American history to catch how it all fits together and what it's referencing.

What have you read by him? I can see that being a problem for 100 years of Solitude but I find a lot of his other stuff is a little more focused in its narrative.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 15:43

CestMoi: Sep 16, 2011

I feel like whenever anyone complains about Borges they always complain about the things I like about him, except for the idea of the characters being poorly developed because I just don't get that complaint at all.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 16:05

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

CestMoi posted:

I feel like whenever anyone complains about Borges they always complain about the things I like about him, except for the idea of the characters being poorly developed because I just don't get that complaint at all.

They exist to the extent that they make the plot happen but do not exist beyond that

# ? Aug 21, 2015 16:17

Tree Goat: May 24, 2009; argania spinosa

averro�s's search is practically a character study
l�nnrot is pretty well fleshed out in death and the compass
e: oh and funes the memorious

sure a lot of the stories have "incidental" characterization but i mean a lot of people that get thrown around with borges like calvino and perec have the same "problem" i'd say

Tree Goat fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Aug 21, 2015

# ? Aug 21, 2015 16:28

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Tree Goat posted:

averro�s's search is practically a character study
l�nnrot is pretty well fleshed out in death and the compass
e: oh and funes the memorious

sure a lot of the stories have "incidental" characterization but i mean a lot of people that get thrown around with borges like calvino and perec have the same "problem" i'd say

Incidentally its the exact same problem I have with reading Calvino

# ? Aug 21, 2015 16:34

CestMoi: Sep 16, 2011

The Borges narrator character is as good a character as exists in any other book.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 16:39

Tree Goat: May 24, 2009; argania spinosa

just keep breathing the rarefied air of "bourgeois metatextual esotericism" or whatever the mot juste is for hai's critique of borges and soon you won't need characters or plot at all, and you will contentedly reread essays about essays about essays about poets you've never read.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 16:44

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

If you like Calvino and Borges there was a 30 year old Mexican novel recently published in English as "A Brief History of Portable Literature" I didn't really get into it for the same reasons as before, but if you are into that kind of writing it does a really good job of it.

CestMoi posted:

The Borges narrator character is as good a character as exists in any other book.

Compare the Borges narrator to say Raskolnikov and you will get what I mean

# ? Aug 21, 2015 16:52

Walh Hara: May 11, 2012

Mel Mudkiper posted:

If you like Calvino and Borges there was a 30 year old Mexican novel recently published in English as "A Brief History of Portable Literature" I didn't really get into it for the same reasons as before, but if you are into that kind of writing it does a really good job of it.

Compare the Borges narrator to say Raskolnikov and you will get what I mean

Do you (or anyone else) have more such recommendations? I absolutely love books from both Calvino and Borges and would certainly like to discover more authors like them. (although they're not even that similar)

# ? Aug 21, 2015 16:56

Ras Het: May 23, 2007; when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child - but now I am a man.

Tree Goat posted:

just keep breathing the rarefied air of "bourgeois metatextual esotericism" or whatever the mot juste is for hai's critique of borges and soon you won't need characters or plot at all, and you will contentedly reread essays about essays about essays about poets you've never read.

you're a mozzyst

Walh Hara posted:

Do you (or anyone else) have more such recommendations? I absolutely love books from both Calvino and Borges and would certainly like to discover more authors like them. (although they're not even that similar)

dictionary of the khazars

# ? Aug 21, 2015 16:57

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Walh Hara posted:

Do you (or anyone else) have more such recommendations? I absolutely love books from both Calvino and Borges and would certainly like to discover more authors like them. (although they're not even that similar)

Its a loving warbeast of a novel but Terra Nostra by Carlos Fuentes hits a similar vibe

# ? Aug 21, 2015 17:04

Walh Hara: May 11, 2012

Ras Het posted:

dictionary of the khazars

Yeah, I loved that one as well. It is a book I recommend often to anyone who is looking for something post-modernistic.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 17:12

Tree Goat: May 24, 2009; argania spinosa

Walh Hara posted:

Do you (or anyone else) have more such recommendations? I absolutely love books from both Calvino and Borges and would certainly like to discover more authors like them. (although they're not even that similar)

perec
bola�o, especially nazi literature in the americas and 2666

Ras Het posted:

you're a mozzyst

suum cuique

# ? Aug 21, 2015 17:19

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Tree Goat posted:

bola�o, especially nazi literature in the americas and 2666

Good call. I would probably say Savage Detectives before 2666 though in terms of "Borgesness"

# ? Aug 21, 2015 17:20

Tree Goat: May 24, 2009; argania spinosa

i do like savage detectives.
however, in savage detectives it is pretty clear that bola�o had sex, and there is no evidence that borges ever had sex.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 17:24

CestMoi: Sep 16, 2011

SHould I read Vie mode d'emploi or La disparition first for Perec??

# ? Aug 21, 2015 17:25

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Tree Goat posted:

i do like savage detectives.
however, in savage detectives it is pretty clear that bola�o had sex, and there is no evidence that borges ever had sex.

Yeah but Savage Detectives is about disaffected pissant dilettantes which is basically the Borges fanbase

# ? Aug 21, 2015 17:26

Tree Goat: May 24, 2009; argania spinosa

CestMoi posted:

SHould I read Vie mode d'emploi or La disparition first for Perec??

vie mode d'emploi probably. the constraints are less "damaging" i guess? it is more dubliners than it is tristram shandy, if that's the right comparison.

in la disparition i think the constraints (or the public knowledge of the constraints) overshadow the prose and it can try one's patience. the adair english translation is really strange if you read the original, but very interesting as a point of comparison/construction.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 17:38

Tree Goat: May 24, 2009; argania spinosa

Mel Mudkiper posted:

Yeah but Savage Detectives is about disaffected pissant dilettantes which is basically the Borges fanbase

if only they had had a patreon...

# ? Aug 21, 2015 17:39

Walh Hara: May 11, 2012

Tree Goat posted:

bola�o, especially nazi literature in the americas and 2666

Is Nocturno de Chile (for some weird reason the title is "By Night in Chile" in English) good as well? I had already read Putas asesinas from Bolano before (which I liked) and I just picked Nocturno in the library on a whim but have yet to read it.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 18:09

Tree Goat: May 24, 2009; argania spinosa

idk i haven't read it yet : ((((

# ? Aug 21, 2015 19:21

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

So apparently Jonathan Franzen did or said something real dumb while promoting his new book that looks really bad

# ? Aug 21, 2015 19:31

Guy A. Person: May 23, 2003

Mel Mudkiper posted:

So apparently Jonathan Franzen did or said something real dumb while promoting his new book that looks really bad

This is a good quote to have handy just for the general future. Thank you.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 19:37

Raxivace: Sep 9, 2014

I have finally finished One Hundred Years of Solitude. That was...quite the ending. I'm going to have to sit on what it means for a while, I think.

So I suppose the novel itself is meant to be a translation of Melqu�ades' prophecies of the family, arranged in chronological order?

Raxivace fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Aug 21, 2015

# ? Aug 21, 2015 21:30

Mr. Squishy: Mar 22, 2010; A country where you can always get richer.

Raxivace posted:

I have finally finished One Hundred Years of Solitude. That was...quite the ending. I'm going to have to sit on what it means for a while, I think.

So I suppose the novel itself is meant to be a translation of Melqu�ades' prophecies of the family, arranged in chronological order?

jo franzen's work is more interesting if you say "honathon franzeen* like he's a mexican or some other kind of southern american. otherwise he just seems flatuous.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 23:09

Mel Mudkiper: Jan 19, 2012; At this point, Mudman abruptly ends the conversation. He usually insists on the last word.

Mr. Squishy posted:

jo franzen's work is more interesting if you say "honathon franzeen* like he's a mexican or some other kind of southern american. otherwise he just seems flatuous.

I genuinely thought Corrections and Freedom were really good but man does Purity look absolutely awful.

I probably need to reread Freedom though because I originally thought the novel was taking the piss out of what an obnoxious hypocrite the father character was and now I am starting to realize Franzen wanted us to take him seriously.

# ? Aug 21, 2015 23:31

thehomemaster: Jul 16, 2014; by Ralp

Mel Mudkiper posted:

I've always had trouble with Borges. Like, I get why he is good, but it just doesn't click for me.

It's a bunch of poorly developed character archetypes going "Hey, look at this super bizarre philosophical idea I found." The ideas are amazing, I am particularly found of the Book of Sand, but man I wish he would put in some actual human beings sometimes.

This sums up China Mieville.

Pretty sure franzen is taking the piss, considering his book is about bleeding heart liberals and now he's pissed of bleeding heart liberals, it's kinda obvious.

thehomemaster fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Aug 22, 2015

# ? Aug 22, 2015 00:04

Tree Goat: May 24, 2009; argania spinosa

china mi�ville is more succinctly summed up by "bad"

# ? Aug 22, 2015 01:26

blue squares: Sep 28, 2007

I'm not that worried about Purity. I pre-ordered it so that I can go to Franzen's reading/Q&A and get it signed. I haven't read much about it, but the promotional stuff is all about the "hacker," but both Corrections and Freedom had similar stuff in it (Joey's weird arms dealing, Chip's 3rd world investment thing) but they weren't the main focus.

I'm really excited to pick it up on the 1st.

# ? Aug 22, 2015 01:28