Trainchat - The failure of privatisation in the British Railway

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Bozza: Mar 5, 2004; "I'm a really useful engine!"

If you've got your back to traffic, you've got about 6 seconds from the rail starting to rattle until the train is on you. Maybe less if it's an electric.

They're sneaky quiet bastards when they're moving.

# ? Aug 22, 2015 17:39

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# ? May 24, 2024 13:03

Brovine: Dec 24, 2011; Mooooo?

Peel posted:

I never really understood how people (other than injured, kids and so on) managed to get hit by trains on foot crossings. Trains are pretty loud.

A train at 70mph or more isn't loud for very long before it hits you. If you have other background noise (road traffic, wind, headphones) you won't hear the first sounds of the rails and wires hissing.

Also: thanks for the effortpost, Bozza!

# ? Aug 22, 2015 18:42

Peel: Dec 3, 2007

Fair enough, that's probably saved my bacon next time I go near a crossing. It's been a long time.

# ? Aug 22, 2015 19:35

Munin: Nov 14, 2004

I am glad I got to see this before I die. I... I had lost hope.

Thanks for the great post. Are there plans to install LIDAR etc at the automated half barriers? I'd have thought these would be a priority given there is no checking at the moment.

# ? Aug 22, 2015 20:02

kingturnip: Apr 18, 2008

The crossing at my local station has had a few incidents in recent years. Every couple of months, there's van parked up nearby (usually Network Rail, sometimes BTP) watching what's going on.

I've mentioned it before, but there's a fairly large Eastern European workforce at the nearby 'business park' and having travelled around Eastern Europe, the way to cross a railway seems to be to amble across whenever you need to. I've seen people come into the station, jump down off the platform, cross the tracks and climb onto the other platform because the barriers are closed. The station has a subway.
There's also a pub right next door to the station, but I'm sure that has nothing to do with it.

# ? Aug 22, 2015 20:23

Trin Tragula: Apr 22, 2005

Bozza posted:

Could do mini effortpost on Level Crossings if you like, there's lots of sorts that the average person doesn't really notice.

May 25, 2012. :britain:

# ? Aug 22, 2015 20:35

Wistful of Dollars: Aug 25, 2009

Maybe it's different in the UK with all them new fangled ekletricity machines, but I often feel a diesel engine before I see it.

Dat rumble. :swoon:

# ? Aug 22, 2015 22:46

goddamnedtwisto: Dec 31, 2004; If you ask me about the mole people in the London Underground, I WILL be forced to kill you; Fun Shoe

Sundayturks posted:

If it's a windy day and a fast train, I can see how it might be possible to miss 'em. I recall a railway safety dude came to my school once and gave a presentation that was essentially "People are really, really stupid and trains are subtler than you might think coming around a bend at a hundred miles an hour." Mostly I remember that guy for grumping that if any of us were killed on the line, those short haircuts would mean he'd have to use two hands to pick up our dumb heads from the line we shouldn't have been on.

Also, great effortpost Bozza. I'm learnin' things, whee.

People might walk across the same crossing a hundred times and never see a train. It's why it is (or at least used to be, not sure now) so much more common to be knocked over in residential suburbs than the middle of London.

# ? Aug 23, 2015 01:29

less than three: Aug 9, 2007; Fallen Rib

People are literal idiots when it comes to level crossings, like many other road situations I suppose. I still remember one day when I was walking to get lunch and the gates were down. (For context, I'm in the middle of Vancouver.) I stood there waiting for the train to pass, and after about 90 seconds some people had gotten out of their cars to lift up the gates, a few cars drove through while the people held up the gate. The train came to a stop before the crossing, and I can only imagine they were in there yelling "What the gently caress are you people doing!"

Then there's the few times I've almost been run over because there's a traffic signal right before the train tracks. People see the train gates go up and without thinking run the red light they're stopped at, while pedestrians and cyclists are crossing the road.

less than three fucked around with this message at 08:20 on Aug 23, 2015

# ? Aug 23, 2015 08:14

Bobstar: Feb 8, 2006; KartooshFace, you are not responding efficiently!

less than three posted:

People are literal idiots when it comes to level crossings, like many other road situations I suppose. I still remember one day when I was walking to get lunch and the gates were down. (For context, I'm in the middle of Vancouver.) I stood there waiting for the train to pass, and after about 90 seconds some people had gotten out of their cars to lift up the gates, a few cars drove through while the people held up the gate. The train came to a stop before the crossing, and I can only imagine they were in there yelling "What the gently caress are you people doing!"

Then there's the few times I've almost been run over because there's a traffic signal right before the train tracks. People see the train gates go up and without thinking run the red light they're stopped at, while pedestrians and cyclists are crossing the road.

This reminds me of someone (can't remember where in the world this was) telling me the local traffic lights have to be phased really short, because if the locals are waiting at red for more than a few seconds they assume it's broken and just go for it. People are strangely impatient.

Come to think of it (and not train related, sorry), what's the law on that, if you've been sitting at a broken traffic light for 15 minutes on red? Give up and turn around? I can't imagine a driver being let off a red light camera fine just because it's broken.

# ? Aug 23, 2015 09:57

coffeetable: Feb 5, 2006; TELL ME AGAIN HOW GREAT BRITAIN WOULD BE IF IT WAS RULED BY THE MERCILESS JACKBOOT OF PRINCE CHARLES

YES I DO TALK TO PLANTS ACTUALLY

Bobstar posted:

Come to think of it (and not train related, sorry), what's the law on that, if you've been sitting at a broken traffic light for 15 minutes on red? Give up and turn around? I can't imagine a driver being let off a red light camera fine just because it's broken.

Give up and turn around. Never run a red light if you've got any choice whatsoever. The fine is not what's at risk.

coffeetable fucked around with this message at 11:00 on Aug 23, 2015

# ? Aug 23, 2015 10:45

Kegluneq: Feb 18, 2011; Mr President, the physical reality of Prime Minister Corbyn is beyond your range of apprehension. If you'll just put on these PINKOVISION glasses...

Bobstar posted:

Come to think of it (and not train related, sorry), what's the law on that, if you've been sitting at a broken traffic light for 15 minutes on red? Give up and turn around? I can't imagine a driver being let off a red light camera fine just because it's broken.

That's more likely to be an issue with temporary lights than permanent ones. I think those are more likely to turn off completely.

BBC article posted:

Common sense

"It's a tricky one because the absolute copper-bottom rule is that the red light must be obeyed", says Vince Yearly from the Institute of Advanced Motorists.

"However, if you've been sitting there for a few minutes and it's become fairly obvious the lights aren't changing then you've got to reconsider.
"So if you can see ahead of you quite clearly and can ideally see the other set of lights or the back of them, I would lower my window a little to hear if there's anything moving in your vicinity.

"Then put your lights on and very tentatively and cautiously start to make your way forward.

"It's not a very scientific answer and it needs a liberal dose of common sense but at the first hint you've miscalculated and the lights have just been on a long red, you should reconsider and reposition the vehicle."

Derbyshire Police echoed this advice adding that drivers should wait at least four minutes before opting to move forward.

Drivers are also urged to report the problem to the authorities at the first opportunity.

I've been in this situation on a remote Scottish road (completely empty road for miles ahead, ten minute wait) and there's obviously not much else you can do other than slowly make your way through.

There are permanent red lights near me on busy roads that can take two loving minutes to change so obviously there has to be a fairly large margin of error there as well. Reporting it seems like a good way of covering your back, although I think red light cameras themselves are also fairly rare and are likely to be on busy roads anyway.

# ? Aug 23, 2015 10:48

spamman: Jul 11, 2002; Chin up Tiger, There is always next season...

Interesting post. Didn't really know much about how the UK did their level crossings.

I'm a train control systems engineer (that does some pure signalling stuff occasionally too) down here in Victoria and we don't use those LIDAR or RADAR crossings. A lot of predictors generally (in areas that aren't surrounded by other signalling infrastructure), but they're starting to get ripped out now too because of track contamination issues. A lot of axle counter crossings going in in regional areas (which lead to all kinds of axle counter reset issues). The big focus in the Metro areas is on grade separations though. The state government has thrown a few billion at removing "the 50 worst level crossings" in Melbourne and that's where most of the work will be over the next three years (until major construction on a new cross city tunnel begins).

# ? Aug 23, 2015 12:16

Bacon Terrorist: May 7, 2010; to ride eternal, shiny and chrome

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2022

As train crew one of the most annoying things is when people don't replace phones correctly at level crossings which results in trains being cautioned through.

Never risk jumping one though, someone did it in our area to save himself 30 seconds in his Land Rover and was killed instantly by the 156 coming round the corner.

Fun fact: one of my colleagues used to try and flush his early morning turd so it landed on the level crossing on a branch line that all the school kids and commuters would then have to walk past to board the train :gonk:

# ? Aug 23, 2015 18:20

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

northern_powerhouse.txt

Three commuter rail routes from Manchester to lose 17 electric trains posted:

Rail campaigners say three key commuter routes from Manchester are to lose a total of 17 electric trains - this time to the Midlands.

Passenger groups have reacted with fury to the decision by train leasing firm Porterbrooks NOT to offer them to bidders for the northern franchises.

The three-carriage Class 323 electric trains, due to be moved next April, are set to go from three Manchester Piccadilly routes.

These are the Northern Rail lines to Crewe via Handforth and Manchester Airport; to Stoke via Macclesfield and to Hattersley via Glossop and Hadfield.

It�s understood they will be moved to the West Midlands, to join the rest of the fleet to minimise operating costs.

The move is the latest in a series of train reshuffles to hit Greater Manchester.

Chris Dale, chairman of TravelWatch NorthWEst, said: �If they have to move trains they should provide some sort of alternative rather than saying �tough luck, find something yourselves.

�It�s not a good place to be at the moment because nobody knows who will operate services when the new franchise starts.

�IT�s not Northern Rail�s fault, they have been landed in this as much as anybody else.�

He added: �This is another kick in the teeth for passengers of the undervalued local rail services in the North West. To add insult to injury there appear to be no obvious replacement trains as suitable.�

�TransPennine is also having to see trains taken elsewhere with no suitable replacement and it all adds up to a shambolic way of managing the railway�s vital rolling stock resources.

�We need a proper strategy for rail rolling stock. TravelWatch NorthWest urges all the parties to have a thorough rethink of the matter.�

It�s not the first time leasing firm Porterbrook have moved trains to Manchester�s detriment.

Earlier this year, the firm revealed plans to move nine trains from TransPennine�s Manchester-Stalybridge-Leeds route to Chiltern Railways.

It meant transport secretary Patrick McLoughlin had to orchestrate a hasty reshuffle, speeding up plans to bring second-hand trains up from Thameslink - the London route

due to get 1,200 brand new �lighter, more reliable and more energy efficient� carriages paid for by the taxpayer.

The second-hand carriages are among 20 four-car electric trains coming to Northern Rail in the months up to February 2016.

The government has also promised 120 new carriages.

The government is investing �1bn in the north of England, much of it to electrify the network and allow up to 700 extra trains to run a day.

A DfT spokesman said: �We are spending �13billion on improving transport across the north, reversing decades of underinvestment, providing better journeys and securing long-term economic growth. That investment is already having a huge impact with rail upgrades already underway.

�Our ambitious plans for the next Northern and Transpennine franchises are central to this transformation.

"As well as scrapping the Pacers and bringing in at least 120 brand-new carriages, we are absolutely clear that we want a fleet of modern, high-quality trains to be used across these franchises.

"We expect the bidders to work with the rolling stock companies to ensure this is delivered.�

Bidders to run the Northern and TransPennine franchises will have to add 200 new train services a day and accommodate 19,000 extra Manchester commuters in the morning peak.

Campaigners have been calling for years for the north to get new rolling stock, arguing the current trains are too small and not fit for purpose.

David Cameron has vowed to scrap the unpopular Pacers - and warned fares could increase.

The Northern franchise operates local, commuter and rural services and long-distance services linking major cities and towns such as Leeds, Sheffield, Nottingham, York, Manchester, Bradford, Preston and Blackpool.

The TransPeninne Express (TPE) franchise provides longer-distance intercity-type services, connecting Newcastle, Leeds, Sheffield, Manchester, Hull, Liverpool, Edinburgh and Glasgow, as well as Manchester Airport.

Companies shortlisted to run the new franchises were announced in August. Competing for the Northern franchise are Arriva, Govia and Northern Rail, while on the shortlist for TPE are FirstGroup, Keolis/Go Ahead and Stagecoach.

# ? Aug 24, 2015 10:28

Bacon Terrorist: May 7, 2010; to ride eternal, shiny and chrome

THUNDERDOME LOSER 2022

That explains the rumours I've been hearing about more 37 hauled stock being commissioned then!

# ? Aug 24, 2015 11:09

Rude Dude With Tude: Apr 19, 2007; Your President approves this text.

TinTower posted:

northern_powerhouse.txt

Privatisation works! :suicide:

# ? Aug 24, 2015 14:24

V. Illych L.: Apr 11, 2008; ASK ME ABOUT LUMBER

'privatisation' ought to be shortened somehow it's a dreadfully inefficient word

i propose 'privation'

# ? Aug 24, 2015 14:54

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

V. Illych L. posted:

'privatisation' ought to be shortened somehow it's a dreadfully inefficient word

i propose 'privation'

After a lot of privation you end up in the privy.

# ? Aug 24, 2015 15:57

Hezzy: Dec 4, 2004; Pillbug

If you get rid of Pacer trains, the North will have precisely 7 trains

# ? Aug 24, 2015 18:07

mrpwase: Apr 21, 2010; I HAVE GREAT AVATAR IDEAS
For the Many, Not the Few

Bacon Terrorist posted:

Fun fact: one of my colleagues used to try and flush his early morning turd so it landed on the level crossing on a branch line that all the school kids and commuters would then have to walk past to board the train

This is now my second favourite railway poop story.

# ? Aug 24, 2015 20:27

Rude Dude With Tude: Apr 19, 2007; Your President approves this text.

Hezzy posted:

If you get rid of Pacer trains, the North will have precisely 7 trains

Somehow I feel like you're arguing in favour of this though?

# ? Aug 24, 2015 20:36

Pinball Jizzard: Jun 23, 2010

spamman posted:

Interesting post. Didn't really know much about how the UK did their level crossings.

I'm a train control systems engineer (that does some pure signalling stuff occasionally too) down here in Victoria and we don't use those LIDAR or RADAR crossings. A lot of predictors generally (in areas that aren't surrounded by other signalling infrastructure), but they're starting to get ripped out now too because of track contamination issues. A lot of axle counter crossings going in in regional areas (which lead to all kinds of axle counter reset issues). The big focus in the Metro areas is on grade separations though.

This is the bit that interests me here. I live and work in Aus in the signalling trade. What kind of contamination are you seeing with your predictors causing them to fail? Generally there are systems you can use to ensure good readings even on the moat disused lines (in WA there is a GCP4000 that operates well on a line that sees one train per year).

Also what issues do you face with regards to resetting on remote crossings? Locals traversing the axle counters would be about the only situation that would be of any issue where you'd leave a track unable to non co-op reset.

# ? Aug 25, 2015 02:37

spamman: Jul 11, 2002; Chin up Tiger, There is always next season...

In regards to track contamination, particular grasses grow over the tracks to the point where they won't drop, and there are also areas where there are millipede breeding seasons (I kid you not) where millions of them go over the tracks, get smooshed into a paste which then stops tracks from dropping.

In terms of axle counters, bored kids in the country have figured out how to make heads think there has been a count and drop level crossings.

# ? Aug 25, 2015 05:20

Pinball Jizzard: Jun 23, 2010

spamman posted:

In regards to track contamination, particular grasses grow over the tracks to the point where they won't drop, and there are also areas where there are millipede breeding seasons (I kid you not) where millions of them go over the tracks, get smooshed into a paste which then stops tracks from dropping.

In terms of axle counters, bored kids in the country have figured out how to make heads think there has been a count and drop level crossings.

Have you done any testing with DC shunt enhancement panels? By feeding a 5v constant DC feed you can generally break through small portions of rail covering to provide a better shunt. The other option to consider on those lines might be using Jeumont Schneiders (or TI.21 depending on your upbringing). It's hard to not significantly shunt a 500V pulse but you'd end up having to sacrifice distance and put in multiple tracks on each approach.

With axle counters and kids you're pretty much hosed unless you can build a plastic housing to stop it. Should be possible with most Frauschers and Thales but not so with Siemens given their size. Getting approval for it on the other hand...

# ? Aug 25, 2015 09:50

spamman: Jul 11, 2002; Chin up Tiger, There is always next season...

The option they've used so far is HVI track circuits in small doses. Not sure actually on the axle counters (like I said, I'm normally train control so I wasn't too involved with it), from memory though the Siemens axle counters are the only ones type approved currently by this ARO.

spamman fucked around with this message at 10:39 on Aug 25, 2015

# ? Aug 25, 2015 10:32

Hezzy: Dec 4, 2004; Pillbug

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad posted:

Somehow I feel like you're arguing in favour of this though?

Only if they all have CCTV on board :v:

# ? Aug 25, 2015 11:29

O-Unit: Oct 22, 2005

Can any UK train goons shed any light on these mysterious card readers?

This one is at Andover station, but I'm sure I've seen them at other stations up and down the Waterloo-Exeter line. They are all 'out of service' and have been ever since I moved to the area about 4 years ago so I've never seen anyone use them, and I pass through the station at peak and off-peak times several days per week.

What's their story?

# ? Aug 25, 2015 16:20

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Never seen a card reader without a turnstile before.

# ? Aug 25, 2015 16:26

PkerUNO: Dec 21, 2007; Ambitious but rubbish

ollie74656 posted:

Can any UK train goons shed any light on these mysterious card readers?

This one is at Andover station, but I'm sure I've seen them at other stations up and down the Waterloo-Exeter line. They are all 'out of service' and have been ever since I moved to the area about 4 years ago so I've never seen anyone use them, and I pass through the station at peak and off-peak times several days per week.

What's their story?

That looks identical to the (ugh) get me there (ugh) readers on Manchester Metrolink, so I assume they're the latest ITSO card reader design?

EDIT: get me there hasn't officially launched in Manchester yet either, they're still only testing with concessionary passes.

# ? Aug 25, 2015 16:27

Lord of the Llamas: Jul 9, 2002; EULER'VE TO SEE IT VENN SOMEONE CALLS IT THE WRONG THING AND PROVOKES MY WRATH

OwlFancier posted:

Never seen a card reader without a turnstile before.

The DLR in London has card readers and no turnstiles. It basically means sometimes you can forget to scan your card out and get charged the maximum for the day.

If no one really uses them it's probably some kind of trial I guess?

# ? Aug 25, 2015 17:41

Vando: Oct 26, 2007; stoats about

PkerUNO posted:

That looks identical to the (ugh) get me there (ugh) readers on Manchester Metrolink, so I assume they're the latest ITSO card reader design?

It is, they're for the Stagecoach brand travelcard. Which only works on buses at the moment I think? So yeah, a triumph.

# ? Aug 25, 2015 18:05

TinTower: Apr 21, 2010; You don't have to 8e a good person to 8e a hero.

Installing ITSO readers is a requirement of new franchises, so Stagecoach may be jumping the gun here.

# ? Aug 25, 2015 18:56

Bozza: Mar 5, 2004; "I'm a really useful engine!"

spamman posted:

The option they've used so far is HVI track circuits in small doses. Not sure actually on the axle counters (like I said, I'm normally train control so I wasn't too involved with it), from memory though the Siemens axle counters are the only ones type approved currently by this ARO.

The Fraucher ones? I like those they're pretty neat but from a maintenance technician perspective I'd prefer the Azlm types.

Axle counters are the future though, especially now we've got Engineers Possession Resets sorted.

# ? Aug 25, 2015 19:42

Pinball Jizzard: Jun 23, 2010

Bozza posted:

The Fraucher ones? I like those they're pretty neat but from a maintenance technician perspective I'd prefer the Azlm types.

Axle counters are the future though, especially now we've got Engineers Possession Resets sorted.

The Thales Azlms are good don't get me wrong but the Frauschers are a maintainers dream. They are effectively now just plug and play once setup. If you drop them off the rail for track works you can throw them on, ensure the height is right (which 99 times in 100 it will be because of how the claw is fitted) and then have it automatically recalibrate.

Add into that the Frauscher development into high rail detection being at the best level it ever has been and I prefer them over all other types.

The big downfall and the reason we won't see full use of axle counters will always be the lack of broken rail detection, we as an industry haven't yet tried the workarounds to see how well they work. For instance a DC track (or high gain coded tracks) can work under an axle counter as a non-vital broken rail checking system.

spamman posted:

The option they've used so far is HVI track circuits in small doses. Not sure actually on the axle counters (like I said, I'm normally train control so I wasn't too involved with it), from memory though the Siemens axle counters are the only ones type approved currently by this ARO.

Which ARO do you mind if I ask?

# ? Aug 26, 2015 00:33

spamman: Jul 11, 2002; Chin up Tiger, There is always next season...

V/Line

# ? Aug 26, 2015 01:13

Thanks Ants: May 21, 2004; #essereFerrari

So you've been working on that diamond crossover thing that shut the end of the line down? The photos on the Twitter feed look awesome, I wish TfL did more train-nerd content.

Edit: Whoops. Thought you were abbreviating Victoria line the underground and not Australia. Carry on�

Thanks Ants fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Aug 26, 2015

# ? Aug 26, 2015 01:17

Pinball Jizzard: Jun 23, 2010

spamman posted:

V/Line

If the distant lines are the Maryborough line then they are definitely Siemens.

I hasten to add that I'm incredibly sorry to hear that you work for V/Line.

Pinball Jizzard fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Aug 26, 2015

# ? Aug 26, 2015 02:03

spamman: Jul 11, 2002; Chin up Tiger, There is always next season...

CrazyScot posted:

If the distant lines are the Maryborough line then they are definitely Siemens.

I hasten to add that I'm incredibly sorry to hear that you work for V/Line.

I don't actually work for them but rather work for one of those millions of firms that does stuff for V/Line.

Although yeah, from what I've heard the Maryborough project basically killed Ansaldo's attempt to get into Victoria.

The entire RRL line is also Siemens too. ACM100s or something. Not sure what they used on the Bairnsdale project though.

# ? Aug 26, 2015 02:22

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# ? May 24, 2024 13:03

Pinball Jizzard: Jun 23, 2010

spamman posted:

I don't actually work for them but rather work for one of those millions of firms that does stuff for V/Line.

Although yeah, from what I've heard the Maryborough project basically killed Ansaldo's attempt to get into Victoria.

The entire RRL line is also Siemens too. ACM100s or something. Not sure what they used on the Bairnsdale project though .

Lets not discuss Maryborough!

I thought Siemens (Invensys) at the time were going to have a Frauscher trial site on RRL but I could have been wrong.

# ? Aug 26, 2015 02:48

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Trainchat - The failure of privatisation in the British Railway

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