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But don't you see? The humans win because of human spirit!
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Aug 26, 2015 13:11
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wheres the federation mech units. why isnt this starship troopers or warhammer 40k. fuckin BULLSHIT
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Aug 26, 2015 13:11
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Kitchner posted:There also isn't any "ground forces" they are just dudes in the yellow uniforms. Since the only half way competent security person you ever meet in a yellow uniform is Worf and everyone else gets bitch slapped, vapourised, or tricked into letting their prisoner escape, I'm surprised the Cardassians didn't wipe the Federation out in ever land battle. Now that I think about it, Worf's the only person in the federation that knows how to do more than that dumb two-handed club move. Maybe being obsessed with 500-times folded Hanzo Steel is a good idea after all.
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Aug 26, 2015 13:21
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shadow puppet of a posted:The Bajorans survived only on the harmonious goodwill and benevolent mercy of one Gull Dukat thank you very much. who, one will note, did nothing wrong
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Aug 26, 2015 13:32
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TEAYCHES posted:wheres the federation mech units. why isnt this starship troopers or warhammer 40k. fuckin BULLSHIT Or you know, maybe just soldiers that actually look like they have protective armour, first aid gear, grenades, other assorted military equipment, and a camouflaged unfiform rather than extras in the yellow extra uniform holding a rifle. You know just actual soldiers rather than Ensign Ricky with a phaser rifle. The one good thing about the last seasons of Enterprise is they brought the Commando guys on board and they were military bad asses.
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Aug 26, 2015 14:08
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Kitchner posted:There also isn't any "ground forces" they are just dudes in the yellow uniforms. Since the only half way competent security person you ever meet in a yellow uniform is Worf and everyone else gets bitch slapped, vapourised, or tricked into letting their prisoner escape, I'm surprised the Cardassians didn't wipe the Federation out in ever land battle. Well the dudes in the yellow uniforms are all that you need. Don't you remember what Worf said in the hit DS9 episode "Let He Who Is Without Sin..."? Starfleet uniforms are designed for comfort, even in the most extreme environments. Meanwhile the Cardassians are constantly having to struggle with their own awkward and bulky uniforms while getting ambushed by Starfleet/Bajoran dudes in their comfy pajamas. shadow puppet of a posted:The Bajorans survived only on the harmonious goodwill and benevolent mercy of one Gull Dukat thank you very much. Oh and that too, of course. 
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Aug 26, 2015 14:10
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Lol at the Federation having trained soldiers.
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Aug 26, 2015 14:15
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Kenzie posted:Well the dudes in the yellow uniforms are all that you need. Don't you remember what Worf said in the hit DS9 episode "Let He Who Is Without Sin..."? Starfleet uniforms are designed for comfort, even in the most extreme environments. I bet the Cardassian armour would be a lot more comfortable when it stops someone stabbing you in the guts (that is it would if it wasn't actually made of rubber). "How do you like your pyjamas now?! "
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Aug 26, 2015 14:56
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Pneub posted:Now that I think about it, Worf's the only person in the federation that knows how to do more than that dumb two-handed club move. Maybe being obsessed with 500-times folded Hanzo Steel is a good idea after all. He trained in the lost art of Kirk Kwon Do
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Aug 26, 2015 15:08
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Space combat in Trek only makes sense when you realize that ever since Star Trek 2, the whole thing was literally meant to be Horatio Hornblower in Space, with a large helping of Das Boot. That's why there are no fighters, FTL missiles, railguns or any somewhat sensible subspace-based weapons that could drop an enemy ten light years away. In order to be visually and dramatically interesting, you gotta have these large ships-of-the-line maneuvering around each other and firing broadsides IN SPACE! at each other.
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Aug 26, 2015 15:16
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the federation would never issue their forces military kit/uniforms b/c it runs counter to its ideology of Peace And Exploration. its like how, even tho the enterprise is clearly going to be frequently called on to defend the federation, its stuffed to the gunnels with civilians and starfleet families. its "absolutely insane and criminally negligent" how the enterprise rolled up to wolf 359 with a full civilian complement on board, and continued to do so into the borg/dominion war era of "the safety of the fleet is obviously no longer a given". but to withdraw those civilians and start treating intergalactic threats seriously would be to call into question everything that underpins the federation. even the defiant-class ships (no family/civs, limited science/research capacity, lots of weapons) were designed in secret and only deployed on the frontier/where they were absolutely necessary. just like w/ section 31, the federation bends over backwards incredibly hard to avoid acknowledging that they arent the dominant power in the quadrant via the sheer purity and goodness of their cause
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Aug 26, 2015 15:18
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Uhh apart from the fact a rail gun fires a slug of solid metal which would just bounce off star trek shields? Same goes for missiles and any other crap, it's why all the weapons are energy based. I'm mean I'm sure they come up with these bullshit ways to justify those odd occasions where torpedoes do get through shielding but if you're going to use they "but these this is what they would really use!" whine it comes up against the "easily stops all projectiles ever" force field.
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Aug 26, 2015 15:19
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i mean that huge ideological hang-up isnt really consciously written into the story, short of it being outlined piecemeal in DS9 without being directly confronted as a whole, but it betrays an ideological blindness on behalf of the writers, which happens to be just as interesting
Ambrose Burnside fucked around with this message at 15:25 on Aug 26, 2015 |
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Aug 26, 2015 15:19
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"The enterprise isn't a war ship, it's a vessel of exploration" Five minutes later "Picard if the Cardassians attack the Enterprise will be the command ship for this sector"
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Aug 26, 2015 15:21
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Kitchner posted:There also isn't any "ground forces" they are just dudes in the yellow uniforms. Since the only half way competent security person you ever meet in a yellow uniform is Worf and everyone else gets bitch slapped Hah. I remember that time in DS9 where Worf is bitching about how much better security was on the Enterprise and Odo just pulls out a Padd and starts listing all of the times that Worf let the ship get taken over.
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Aug 26, 2015 15:31
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To be fair DS9 doesn't have a great track record either.
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Aug 26, 2015 15:36
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Cameo - Word Up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZjAantupsA Geordie's in it! 
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Aug 26, 2015 17:06
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Kitchner posted:Uhh apart from the fact a rail gun fires a slug of solid metal which would just bounce off star trek shields? Same goes for missiles and any other crap, it's why all the weapons are energy based. And yet their ultimate last-ditch weapon? Ramming.
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Aug 26, 2015 17:10
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If their magic shields can stop a huge chunk of iron going at a significant fraction of C, they must use a hell of a lot of energy. And if phasers and torpedoes can get through them, they must use an insane amount of energy too. Enough that one hit without shields up would reduce any ship to a faint smear spread across half the solar system.
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Aug 26, 2015 17:14
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Phasers and torpedos only go through the shield if they match the energy phase or whatever technobabble which only really happens when you hire a man with a visor that would have been the downfall of the entire human race if geordi existed in the battlestar galactica reboot.
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Aug 26, 2015 17:19
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Powered Descent posted:And yet their ultimate last-ditch weapon? Ramming. It would be great to see someone ram their ship into their opponent and it basically just smash their ship to pieces while the other ship is unharmed.
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Aug 26, 2015 17:22
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Entropic posted:If their magic shields can stop a huge chunk of iron going at a significant fraction of C, they must use a hell of a lot of energy. And if phasers and torpedoes can get through them, they must use an insane amount of energy too. You're assuming shields react to phasers the same as other things. I always figured phasers and other weapons aliens use were way better at battering down shields than other types of energy or matter.
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Aug 26, 2015 17:22
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Entropic posted:If their magic shields can stop a huge chunk of iron going at a significant fraction of C, they must use a hell of a lot of energy. And if phasers and torpedoes can get through them, they must use an insane amount of energy too. Enough that one hit without shields up would reduce any ship to a faint smear spread across half the solar system. I didn't realise you were an expert on force fields in real life. You raise some very good points about how future space lasers would interact with future space forcefields and the hulls of future spaceships made out of future metal.
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Aug 26, 2015 17:25
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In that DS9 episode "The Siege of AR-558, I got the impression they just beamed down the crew of the first starship that arrived, including captain/commander etc in order to hold the asteroid. Then when the deviant arrives a few months later, nearly everyone has been killed and the person in charge is the chief science officer who isn't even a soldier. If it was a galaxy class ship no doubt Starfleet would have ordered the ship's counselor, children and barber down to the planet to hold the asteroid for Starfleet. Long live the Federation!
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Aug 26, 2015 17:32
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Figaro posted:In that DS9 episode "The Siege of AR-558, I got the impression they just beamed down the crew of the first starship that arrived, including captain/commander etc in order to hold the asteroid. Then when the deviant arrives a few months later, nearly everyone has been killed and the person in charge is the chief science officer who isn't even a soldier. If it was a galaxy class ship no doubt Starfleet would have ordered the ship's counselor, children and barber down to the planet to hold the asteroid for Starfleet. Long live the Federation! Then this blue bald headed barber just came out of nowhere sarge! He just tore them apart with his bare hands! Slaughtered them like animals! He even bit off one of their noses! And after he just asks if we wants a haircut calm as you like as if organs weren't splattered all over his uniform.
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Aug 26, 2015 17:37
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Starfleet doesn't have ground troops. It is a star fleet. the official fiction is that it is not even a military organization, but is for science, diplomacy and exploration. They're not exactly the loving space marines and the point is made surprisingly early and often in TNG and DS9 that they're really unprepared for a shooting war with other galactic empires. Both series take an oddly hawkish attitude to the federation given the supposedly lovey dovey utopian universe of Trek, the writers are repeatedly beating the drum for the fleet to nut up and get some big guns even as a lot of the characters insist that they didn't sign up to fight wars. From a dramatic point of view this makes sense as everyone loves the escalating drama of a war story, and it can be seen as a sort of unintentional geopolitical allegory for the waning of the optimism and end-of-history thinking that accompanied the end of the Cold War.
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Aug 26, 2015 17:48
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It would have been cool if the phasers were used to drop the shield and then torpedoes were used to damage the hull once the shields were down instead of two weapons that were basically used interchangeably.
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Aug 26, 2015 17:50
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once you take away a hu-mon's replicator and holodeck and synthale and sonic showers they become remorseless killing monsters who wear test tubes around their necks.
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Aug 26, 2015 18:28
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Why would the other powers even need to go into a shooting war anyways. Fed space is so vast that it's unlikely anyone could overtake all of it before the feds nut up and go into full war mode, which everyone from the romulans to the klingons acknowledged would be a bad thing. The cardassians were nothing comparatively but they still managed to bully, carve out and annex space. The romulan neutral zone always seemed understaffed. It would have served everyone better if they just continued to take over fed space through aggressive diplomacy. If the founders continued to expand the cardassian empire diplomatically they prob would have become the major quadrant power in a few decades. If your enemy publicly prefers to roll over why would you force them to fight? /sperg
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Aug 26, 2015 18:37
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skasion posted:Starfleet doesn't have ground troops. It is a star fleet. the official fiction is that it is not even a military organization, but is for science, diplomacy and exploration. They're not exactly the loving space marines and the point is made surprisingly early and often in TNG and DS9 that they're really unprepared for a shooting war with other galactic empires. Both series take an oddly hawkish attitude to the federation given the supposedly lovey dovey utopian universe of Trek, the writers are repeatedly beating the drum for the fleet to nut up and get some big guns even as a lot of the characters insist that they didn't sign up to fight wars. From a dramatic point of view this makes sense as everyone loves the escalating drama of a war story, and it can be seen as a sort of unintentional geopolitical allegory for the waning of the optimism and end-of-history thinking that accompanied the end of the Cold War. The fact is, though, the Federation exists and thrives BECAUSE it has the biggest, baddest guns of anyone else. Their weapons are always shown as just as good if not better than the alien of the week's best. The mirror universe Federation is enslaved and destroyed BECAUSE they dismantle their armory.
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Aug 26, 2015 18:43
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It is pretty much acknowledged that the Federation is all round the most advanced civilisation tech wise. The only thing the others in the Alpha Quadrant have over them is cloaking technology. Which is kinda the point, they could annihilate everyone but their own self restraint means they are all peaceful and poo poo. Which means they get bullied despite being stronger. Kitchner fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Aug 26, 2015 |
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Aug 26, 2015 19:04
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Powered Descent posted:This was like two pages ago and I can't believe no one has called you on it yet. This reminded me of a painfully nerdy compare/contrast paper I wrote in high school. Star Trek and the age of sail and Star Wars and modern carrier warfare 
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Aug 26, 2015 19:15
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Entropic posted:If their magic shields can stop a huge chunk of iron going at a significant fraction of C, they must use a hell of a lot of energy. And if phasers and torpedoes can get through them, they must use an insane amount of energy too. Enough that one hit without shields up would reduce any ship to a faint smear spread across half the solar system. Ships in ds9 and the tos movies get holes blown in them all the time
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Aug 26, 2015 19:46
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Mike the TV posted:Ships in ds9 and the tos movies get holes blown in them all the time Of course they do, ships getting holes blown in them looks rad as hell.
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Aug 26, 2015 19:50
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Universe Master posted:star trek ships even have a stun setting on their main phasers, and can target with centimeter precision from orbit According to one of the eager officers in the original pilot, one starship's phasers can wipe out an entire continent on a single pass, they don't even need a few ships, they could do it with one. Kitchner posted:There also isn't any "ground forces" they are just dudes in the yellow uniforms. Since the only half way competent security person you ever meet in a yellow uniform is Worf and everyone else gets bitch slapped, vapourised, or tricked into letting their prisoner escape, I'm surprised the Cardassians didn't wipe the Federation out in ever land battle.  competent. Worf got owned by a barrel
My Q-Face fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Aug 26, 2015 |
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Aug 26, 2015 19:57
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sinking belle posted:Did ST ever cover the idea of a civilisation ~ascending to a higher plane of existence~ or w/e Uh, did you see Star Trek: The Motion Picture? Remember the ending? BTW it's a wonder the Feds didn't get invaded by all the aliens V'ger pissed off by digitizing their home worlds/solar systems, especially if they got as far as Kirk did.
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Aug 26, 2015 20:21
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sinking belle posted:Did ST ever cover the idea of a civilisation ~ascending to a higher plane of existence~ or w/e This counts, yes?
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Aug 26, 2015 20:36
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My Q-Face posted:
I said half way competent
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Aug 26, 2015 20:40
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Kitchner posted:I said half way competent What about Eddington? He was competent enough to fool the whole DS9 crew including Odo for 18 months. Then he beat and embarrassed Sisko repeatedly until Sisko went nuts and nerve gassed an entire planet.
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Aug 26, 2015 21:02
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Binary Badger posted:Uh, did you see Star Trek: The Motion Picture? Remember the ending? I have... and I don't... A remember a long long sequence of starship porn. I think some klingons getting blown up, a bald woman, "PHOTON TORPEEDOS... AWAAAAYYYY!!!!", and spock slowly drifting towards V'ger. That is all I remember of TMP. Edit: I've seen that movie atleast six times.
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Aug 26, 2015 21:17
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