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Anatharon posted:The new game he was considering was focused on Rando (pre-Painful RPG I'd imagine). I really hope this happens at some point, Rando Quest sounds pretty awesome and we could probably get some more background on how things got the way they did. Also 666 Kill Chop Deluxe is pretty great, favorite track from Joyful so far.
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Aug 26, 2015 11:13
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Anatharon posted:...Are you kidding?
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Aug 26, 2015 14:14
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i thought the game was leading up to rando being the final boss again when i was first playing, which i was pre-emptively down about
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Aug 26, 2015 14:45
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Relin posted:There's no indication in anything Brad says that he touched Lisa. He's not an unreliable narrator even if he hallucinates. I won't believe that he did anything more than watch unless the dev states otherwise~ Implications and suggestive tone in the narrative are meaningless, obv. Just like no one is dead until you see them explicitly die on-screen, Brad getting his drink on courtesy of his father and told that "Martial arts is bullshit, here's how to be a real man" before going into his sister's room indicates to me that what his dad really meant is "Hey, beer is a great way to be a man! Let's go tell your sister all about it!" Marty's attempted redemption gets more abhorrent the more you learn about what he was like. Brad abused Lisa too, and if he didn't do it sexually, he did it in other ways (which are more explicit, like abandoning her.) The game has dark themes and they aren't hidden behind veils of nuance and subtlety. I don't know how much more explicit the game can get without saying "Brad raped Lisa" Frankly it makes Brad's Trial by Wulin Fire all the more cathartic. Brad did nothing wrong by cleaning Olathe the gently caress up. 
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Aug 26, 2015 15:01
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Relin posted:There's no indication in anything Brad says that he touched Lisa. He's not an unreliable narrator even if he hallucinates. I won't believe that he did anything more than watch unless the dev states otherwise~ Brad is a hugely unreliable narrator. The fact that he does hallucinate (and you even have to fight the hallucinations in some cases) is proof enough of that. There's also Sticky's dialogue suggesting he molested Buddy, when we find out here that definitely never happened. So either Sticky was trying to provoke Brad, which doesn't make much sense, or Brad just heard what he (didn't) want to.
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Aug 26, 2015 17:02
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I always thought Sticky's dialogue was a 'suicide by cop' kinda thing. That or he was hoping either his words or his death might shock Brad out of his rampage.
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Aug 26, 2015 18:02
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Not sure how to feel about this DLC. The music and ending were good, I liked getting more joy mutant designs, and I actually liked Buddy's character, but... There is a lot of fighting with only one character that gets monotonous, and since buddy's not really interested in talking to anyone, you don't get a ton of characterization or jokes for bit characters.
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Aug 26, 2015 18:26
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Kaboom Dragoon posted:I always thought Sticky's dialogue was a 'suicide by cop' kinda thing. That or he was hoping either his words or his death might shock Brad out of his rampage. Both Rick and Sticky do that. They both knew when Brad found then it would only be a matter of time until Brad figures out they helped kill Cheeks and kidnap Buddy, so they might as well say what they really feel before Brad hulks out and immolates them. Given Brad is junkie, and after his "lesson" to Buddy at the start of LtJ, anyone could spot that Brad cannot be reasoned with wrt his daughter.
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Aug 26, 2015 18:29
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Beekeeping and You posted:Not sure how to feel about this DLC. The music and ending were good, I liked getting more joy mutant designs, and I actually liked Buddy's character, but... Pretty much. The story and especially the music was redeeming but I couldn't help but feel the battles were just going through the motions.
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Aug 26, 2015 18:58
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Honestly the biggest thing I felt soured on isthat Buzzo's redemption came out of loving nowhere. Him coming to terms with what he's become/done is entirely offscreen, and he shows up to save you out of loving nowhere. Also Yado claiming he genetically modified Buddy to be what she becomes by the end of the game entirely fell flat to me. It makes more sense that Buddy simply is hosed up due to Brad being hosed up from his abusive childhood, along with the other environmental factors of being the last girl in the apocalypse and the joy abuse. I do think he did one thing really well with the story, The Joyful is pretty loving hard, and you're basically forced to eventually rely on doing distasteful things to survive. Anyone who played the previous game is going to naturally avoid joy, but you're effectively forced into using it without actually being forced into using it. Same with the flashing. You can get by without abusing either, but it's hard as poo poo, and you're going to need to be lucky.
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Aug 26, 2015 20:33
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whether it's implied or outright stated, if brad really did assault/molest/rape lisa then the entirety of LtP is a huge narrative sham. the whole arc of that game is that brad is flawed but more or less a victim of circumstances, and although he doesn't make the best decision all the time, he's generally an anti-hero who tries to do what's right. if instead of that he basically did one of the worst things possible that you can do to another person, then the whole idea of him trying to find redemption is completely meaningless. at least for me, the idea that someone who did that thing can find redemption on any level is asinine; in that case buzzo is actually the hero of the narrative. it'd be like if someone made a game where you play as a young hitler, but it's not obvious he's hitler and the protagonist is presented as a flawed and troubled but relatable young man, and then after that game ends the credits roll by and say OH YEAH BY THE WAY YOU WERE HITLER THE WHOLE TIME AND YOUR MAIN CHARACTER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE HOLOCAUST LOL i mean i guess it would reinforce the theme that everything is horrible forever, but it kills my ability to empathize with brad or his struggle
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Aug 26, 2015 20:52
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Yeah, I'm just going to put on this backburner to see if there's a patch for the combat or something down the line because right now I'm super bored with Joyful. Least the soundtrack is totally worth it.
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Aug 26, 2015 21:05
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How do I launch the dlc?
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Aug 26, 2015 21:12
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Kurtofan posted:How do I launch the dlc?
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Aug 26, 2015 21:16
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Accordion Man posted:Should give you a launcher that let's you choose between Painful and Joyful. Welp, it doesn't. edit: I can launch it from the steam library. Kurtofan fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Aug 26, 2015 |
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Aug 26, 2015 21:17
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I dont see how being forced to rape someone makes brad a horrible person (other things in the game does that), its not really that fundamentally different from being raped Provided thats whats going on in that scene, ive not seen it.
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Aug 26, 2015 21:19
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Kurtofan posted:Welp, it doesn't. You have purchased it, right? It's not free. If so, try restarting your Steam client. homeless poster posted:whether it's implied or outright stated, if brad really did assault/molest/rape lisa then the entirety of LtP is a huge narrative sham. the whole arc of that game is that brad is flawed but more or less a victim of circumstances Even in this case he's still a victim of circumstance. That was something he did under the influence of his abusive father as well as alcohol. It doesn't make it any less horrible of an act, but it's still very much something that Brad was forced into doing, not something he chose to do.
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Aug 26, 2015 21:21
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homeless poster posted:whether it's implied or outright stated... This is stupid.
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Aug 26, 2015 21:26
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Finished it, how do I get the other endings? I heard talk about a Joy Lab, what is that about and how?
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Aug 26, 2015 21:35
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quote:whether it's implied or outright stated, if brad really did assault/molest/rape lisa then the entirety of LtP is a huge narrative sham. the whole arc of that game is that brad is flawed but more or less a victim of circumstances, and although he doesn't make the best decision all the time, he's generally an anti-hero who tries to do what's right. if instead of that he basically did one of the worst things possible that you can do to another person, then the whole idea of him trying to find redemption is completely meaningless. at least for me, the idea that someone who did that thing can find redemption on any level is asinine; in that case buzzo is actually the hero of the narrative. Brad isn't a victim when he's essentially drugged and coerced into committing an unforgivable act against his sister? I don't see how the narrative falls apart if you accept that Brad raped Lisa. Brad is not meant to be a hero, and he's barely in the realm of anti-hero. His whole arc is about finding meaning and redemption because of his intense guilt, either survivor's guilt or perpetrator's guilt. Whether or not he committed the act or not, you're presuming not that a rapist can seek redemption, but assuming that a rapist can't want to find redemption in his rape. In Brad's case, either way you swing it, the final message of his story is that the reality of your past can and will deny you the chance to ever better yourself. Brad didn't find redemption, he found failure and he found death. Whether or not he was seeking it out as a rapist or simply as a fellow victim is not really the issue. That being said, his behavior and outlook wrt Buddy strongly supports that he was complicit in abuse on some level, and Marty's behavior towards Brad does not rule out the sexual aspect. And Buddy's outlook towards Brad is probably where the real question of redemption is decided. In Buddy's mind, Brad wasn't worthy of redemption, but the finale does indicate he's worthy of some form of forgiveness, though it's hesitant and complex in how it evolves. Brad wasn't trying to be a bad person, but he ended up being a bad person regardless. This plays well into the themes of the game and the context of The Father scene: You can do horrible things not because of your intent, but because of factors that you can't control. In Brad's case, he was manipulated by an intensely abusive home environment and a father that wanted to destroy him piece by piece. By that same logic, Buddy is unworthy of redemption because her ruthlessness (fostered by Brad) led her to become a power-hungry, violent maniac. And if you take that position, I can't exactly disagree with you, but I would argue that you're missing the point of Brad's arc because of a (and I'm not saying it's unwarranted) knee-jerk exceptionalism for rape independent of the context that said rape is presented. To be clear: I'm not apologizing for what Brad did, but you're oversimplifying the context of it to paint Brad as unsympathetic when Brad being unsympathetic is a huge part of what his character and the entire game is about. The game is about Perverts and a Sea of Dipshits and a Desire for Skin. Buzzo did nothing wrong. tl;dr: Whether or not Brad is sympathetic is your personal choice, but he doesn't need to be sympathetic for the plot to work or be good. Golden Goat posted:Finished it, how do I get the other endings? There's technically two endings and three post-game scripts. The ending split is obvious You Leave Them or Join Them. The post-scripts depend on side stuff you did before the ending and there's a priority. So in ascending priority of endings, theres: Yado: Beat the game normally. Lisa: Get the 2nd TNT from Disco Mountain (path is in the Dice cave), blow up the rock in the 2nd hub, beat the optional boss Harry. Continue on till you get to a shack and enter the secret entrance on the right. Once inside you'll see cloths draped over the floor. The 12th cloth (tablecloths don't count) leads to a room with a punching bag. Punch the bag over and over until another passage opens up, where you'll find a Joy Mask. With the mask on, go to the area where the Bar/Band are hanging out and go to the far left of the map where you'll see a diagonal cloud. Jump off the cliff and enter the Joy Lab. Once you examine the coffin at the end, you have unlocked the Lisa ending. Beat the game normally to get it. Father: Get the Joy Mask as above but examine Rando's corpse. Beat the game normally after doing so. Hope that helps! edit: Godamn, when you write it out it seems like a straight up SS Anne style secret. Amgard fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Aug 26, 2015 |
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Aug 26, 2015 21:38
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Buzzo did saw off a guy's face for viewing Brad as a father figure, and may have cut off Buddy's nipple, which are kind of wrong things.
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Aug 26, 2015 21:47
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I like how buddy is so short her portrait in the results screen is just a bit of her ponytail
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Aug 26, 2015 22:22
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Amgard posted:edit: Godamn, when you write it out it seems like a straight up SS Anne style secret. It is. In fact it's kind of a stupid secret. Thanks for putting that up. Anyway that's all three and I liked the story. Combat was just really, really boring and the last few fights just take forever sometimes.
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Aug 26, 2015 22:51
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Amgard posted:knee-jerk exceptionalism for rape i don't know man, that sounds like the disasterous "legitimate rape" talking point to me. if you can't see that there isn't a forgivable context for raping someone then i don't know what to say. doing something because you're coerced or held at gun point or whatever is still the cowardly way out, and i don't feel like that excuses the action. still though, knee-jerk exceptionalism for rape. amazing 
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Aug 26, 2015 22:57
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One thing worth remembering is that Joy makes you express your 'innermost desires' or whatever and she hallucinates Brad and Rando basically saying "wow we were wrong, you're the best Buddy! You're always right! Now let's go for cake, and ice cream!". It's hard to know how Buddy REALLY felt about Brad, I think, because their relationship was pretty complicated. homeless poster posted:i don't know man, that sounds like the disasterous "legitimate rape" talking point to me. if you can't see that there isn't a forgivable context for raping someone then i don't know what to say. doing something because you're coerced or held at gun point or whatever is still the cowardly way out, and i don't feel like that excuses the action. Uh, Brad was still a child at that point, you know.
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Aug 26, 2015 23:01
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homeless poster posted:doing something because you're coerced or held at gun point or whatever is still the cowardly way out haha jesus loving christ
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Aug 26, 2015 23:08
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normally ih ave some sort of witty response to poo poo like that but god drat. im speechless.
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Aug 26, 2015 23:08
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I figure at the very least Brad had to watch Marty molest Lisa. He was probably also forced into doing it himself. I really like how the achievement shows Marty in shape and in his suit, which is what he is wearing when Lisa thinks of better times. I also think it and his comment about karate not meaning poo poo are signs of his own self loathing in regards to not being able to save his wife. Marty is the biggest piece of poo poo in the series but even he has his own story. I guess Buzzo was just haunted by Lisa's ghost, and took it out on Rando because Brad was taking care of him and not her. I'm also glad Brad shows remorse for how lovely he was to Dusty.
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Aug 26, 2015 23:13
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im sitting here 20 minutes later still in loving awe of how disgusting that post is. i cant get it out of my head.
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Aug 26, 2015 23:28
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homeless poster posted:i don't know man, that sounds like the disasterous "legitimate rape" talking point to me. if you can't see that there isn't a forgivable context for raping someone then i don't know what to say. doing something because you're coerced or held at gun point or whatever is still the cowardly way out, and i don't feel like that excuses the action. You appear to have the mental maturity of a teenager. You probably shouldn't be playing LISA.
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Aug 26, 2015 23:35
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homeless poster posted:i don't know man, that sounds like the disasterous "legitimate rape" talking point to me. if you can't see that there isn't a forgivable context for raping someone then i don't know what to say. doing something because you're coerced or held at gun point or whatever is still the cowardly way out, and i don't feel like that excuses the action. Perhaps you're confusing legitimate rape with excusable rape, though even if you are I'm still at a loss of what talking point you're accusing me of. Actually, let's reframe for a second because you either can't or won't understand the point I was trying to make. I was not trying to say that Brad raping/molesting Lisa is okay because he was forced into it, and I'm not saying he should be forgiven for it. The game doesn't even allow Brad forgiveness for his treatment of Buddy or the explicit failure to protect Lisa, which are far less severe than a rape. I'm saying that Brad's quest for redemption and his desire to make amends for how he treated Lisa is not incompatible with or irrelevant because he raped her. Your original point is that (quoting): if brad really did assault/molest/rape lisa then the entirety of LtP is a huge narrative sham. based on a subjective interpretation of Brad's moral value. In fact, you based the purpose of the narrative as relying on Brad being quote:flawed but more or less a victim of circumstances, and although he doesn't make the best decision all the time, he's generally an anti-hero who tries to do what's right Which I argued is neither what the game tries to argue nor supported by Brad's arc as laid out in the writing and presentation of the game. Brad's potential for sympathy is very much a subjective interpretation of his present and past situation. It's up to the player to decide if Brad is worthy of sympathy. You argue he isn't, I abstain on the matter because of my main point that Brad's quest for redemption does not require that we sympathize with him, just how we respond to it. Lisa The Painful is, in many ways, a complex character drama about personal change, the scars of abuse, and how abuse prevents people from moving on, accepting their failures, and trying to make correct decisions. Your basis is flawed because Brad doesn't try to do what's right in any absolute sense. He tries to do what he feels is right based on the scars that abuse has left him, of which his rape of Lisa is very much a scar that affects him. Lisa bears the majority of that pain, to be sure, given that she killed herself over it. But you can't argue that what Brad was forced (and all text and context points to him being forced) to engage in doesn't play a part in the person he is in the game proper. Your stance is essentially "The plot is meaningless because I can't feel bad for Brad", but a huge point of the story is that feeling bad for Brad isn't relevant, it's observing how he's unable to overcome his problems and change in the way that he wants to that allows the game to hammer its themes home. Brad is a scummy piece of poo poo, or he's a misunderstood victim - his actions play out the same either way and the result is the same. Want a corroborating example of this? Please refer to Buzzo. quote:still though, knee-jerk exceptionalism for rape. amazing Discounting the rape, Brad abandoned his mutilated son, ran away from his sister-in-need, became a drug addict and alcoholic, tormented his daughter emotionally and mentally by lying to her for her entire life, killed dozens upon dozens of people from crimes ranging from sexual assault to merely being an inconvenient obstacle, betrayed and murdered his closest allies, killed his father and closest friends, tortured people and didn't question his moral position until the very last moment that he realized that it didn't win him what he wants. If you're going to argue all of that above is sympathetic behavior and a rape that he was drugged, beaten, and forced to commit (as a child) is the tipping point to make him a horrible monster: congratulations! You're making a very clear and very obvious moral exception for the rape. I'm not even going to begrudge you this, because it's not an unusual or alien position to take. But if you're going to take issue with it, at least recognize what you're doing. quote:One thing worth remembering is that Joy makes you express your 'innermost desires' or whatever and she hallucinates Brad and Rando basically saying "wow we were wrong, you're the best Buddy! You're always right! Now let's go for cake, and ice cream!". It's hard to know how Buddy REALLY felt about Brad, I think, because their relationship was pretty complicated. That's why I hesitate to say she forgives him. The Battle Inside Her Mind sequence definitely lays out that Buddy is capable and willing to understand the good and the bad that is Brad, and the Leave Them ending does open the door to her coming to peace with what she suffered under him and come to accept him as her father (of a sorts) Nothing about Lisa is concretely solved, and Buddy definitely comes into her own as a complex character (one of the things the DLC does very well, mind you.) I like to think she does come to forgive him, in part because she suffered a similar journey that he did and learned more about what Brad's demons were from Rando/Buzzo. Plus it makes for a little bit of a tenderhearted conclusion to an otherwise bittersweet story. Amgard fucked around with this message at 23:41 on Aug 26, 2015 |
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Aug 26, 2015 23:37
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homeless poster posted:i don't know man, that sounds like the disasterous "legitimate rape" talking point to me. if you can't see that there isn't a forgivable context for raping someone then i don't know what to say. doing something because you're coerced or held at gun point or whatever is still the cowardly way out, and i don't feel like that excuses the action. Relax, you're taking this to the extreme. I think we can agree that Brad was forced into doing it by his horrible abusive father and that's that, doesn't make it less horrible but it does explain a lot about his guilt. Don't start going around insulting others because they have another way of seeing things in a video game plot.
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Aug 27, 2015 00:24
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homeless poster posted:doing something because you're coerced or held at gun point or whatever is still the cowardly way out, 
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Aug 27, 2015 01:36
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homeless poster posted:. doing something because you're coerced or held at gun point or whatever is still the cowardly way out, and i don't feel like that excuses the action. Oh my god I completely missed this... 
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Aug 27, 2015 02:05
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homeless poster posted:i don't know man, that sounds like the disasterous "legitimate rape" talking point to me. if you can't see that there isn't a forgivable context for raping someone then i don't know what to say. doing something because you're coerced or held at gun point or whatever is still the cowardly way out, and i don't feel like that excuses the action. 
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Aug 27, 2015 02:08
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you're a few spaces on the spectrum of nuts away from "all sex is rape" homeless poster
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Aug 27, 2015 02:23
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homeless poster: if someone is raped by gunpoint, are they a coward? Back on topic: I'm doing a Pain Mode run for the cheevo. Assuming I don't want to use the cheap-as-poo poo crew (Birdie, Harvey, Fly, Carp), what's an interesting and fun setup that you guys have discovered? Running Terry/Beastborn/Tiger and I'm pretty eh on it.
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Aug 27, 2015 02:29
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Man I knew as soon as I saw the rope it was just going to be this again and I climbed it anyways.
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Aug 27, 2015 02:36
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Internet Kraken posted:Man I knew as soon as I saw the rope it was just going to be this again and I climbed it anyways. It's us. We're Rando.
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Aug 27, 2015 02:40
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Amgard posted:
Terry, Birdie, and the old guy are my favorite combo, particularly when Terry starts to learn his hot dances. But either way I mean, come on, it's Terry. You don't say no to the Ter Bear. But the great thing is the old guy can give tp to Birdie, Birdie can spit gasoline, and once Terry has hot dance online, all burns in your wake.
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Aug 27, 2015 02:50
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