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God drat, like Napoleon invading Russia, I was unprepared, JaucheCharly. I love this thread.House Louse posted:What kind of food did sailors eat? Obviously if you're just going around the Med you can go ashore whenever, but on longer voyages did they eat cold food for months at a time? Or if they cooked, where did they get the firewood? http://www.amazon.com/Food-Sea-Shipboard-Cuisine-Ancient/dp/1442227362 In brief, hardtack, salted meat and fish, bread, pickled vegetables in small amounts, and really whatever would keep for the length of the journey, plus fresh fish and food from the locals. Most ships did cook, using various fuels depending on the era: As you get closer to the Age Of Sail you see more plant and animal processed oils and eventually petroleum fuels, but quite often any vessel big enough to have a spacious interior before 1200AD would have a box filled with sand or gravel in which a small fire would be built. The wood would of course, have been procured on land and stockpiled, resupplied for the length of the voyage.
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Aug 28, 2015 03:48
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I know a dude who wrote his MA thesis on the hearth in an early modern French ship at the bottom of the...Gulf? Somewhere in Canada? Whatever it was, it was in the New World. And he said it was just like a hearth on land--bricks and everything--just, it was on a boat. But that was a roundship, not a galley, where you should stop every night. If nothing else, it's because there's no room to sleep on a galley.
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Aug 28, 2015 06:08
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HEY GAL posted:I know a dude who wrote his MA thesis on the hearth in an early modern French ship at the bottom of the...Gulf? Somewhere in Canada? Whatever it was, it was in the New World. And he said it was just like a hearth on land--bricks and everything--just, it was on a boat. But that was a roundship, not a galley, where you should stop every night. If nothing else, it's because there's no room to sleep on a galley. Wanna drink with this dude and talk about ships.
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Aug 28, 2015 06:21
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Wanna drink with this dude and talk about ships. Ships are p cool. Pretty ingenious stuff. Anything you are curious about in particular?
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Aug 28, 2015 06:23
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Only the war galleys with multiple rows of rowers (eg. triremes and biremes) needed to stop every evening to get more supplies. Trade galleys and earlier war galleys (eg. penteconters) had enough cargo space for multi-day journeys. And Roman roundships could have sailed round the Earth.
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Aug 28, 2015 06:29
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Hogge Wild posted:Only the war galleys with multiple rows of rowers (eg. triremes and biremes) needed to stop every evening to get more supplies. Trade galleys and earlier war galleys (eg. penteconters) had enough cargo space for multi-day journeys. And Roman roundships could have sailed round the Earth. I think they were capable of doing it in perfect condition but reality is the ships most likely would have fallen apart due to extreme weather and wood worms long before they managed the full trip.
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Aug 28, 2015 06:33
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LingcodKilla posted:I think they were capable of doing it in perfect condition but reality is the ships most likely would have fallen apart due to extreme weather and wood worms long before they managed the full trip. Even if the ships didn't fall apart the crews would probably have died from scurvy or some such thing.
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Aug 28, 2015 06:35
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LingcodKilla posted:I think they were capable of doing it in perfect condition but reality is the ships most likely would have fallen apart due to extreme weather and wood worms long before they managed the full trip. Extreme weather is always a danger, but the Roman roundships that were used in grain trade were more seaworthy than the ships that Columbus and Magellan used. And the 4th century BC Kyrenia ship had already a lead sheathed body against the shipworm. ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Even if the ships didn't fall apart the crews would probably have died from scurvy or some such thing. Very likely. Only one of Magellan's five ships and 18 men out of the original 237 survived the first circumnavigation of the Earth. And navigation would have been also a big problem, but the ships themselves would have been capable of the task.
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Aug 28, 2015 06:52
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:Wanna drink with this dude and talk about ships. turns out ships are cool, and good
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Aug 28, 2015 06:52
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Hogge Wild posted:Extreme weather is always a danger, but the Roman roundships that were used in grain trade were more seaworthy than the ships that Columbus and Magellan used. And the 4th century BC Kyrenia ship had already a lead sheathed body against the shipworm. Very neat. Never came across lead sheeting on a ship that old. 4 man crew on a single mast, single square sail vessel? That's suicide on the open ocean but suitable for the med.
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Aug 28, 2015 08:05
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LingcodKilla posted:Very neat. Never came across lead sheeting on a ship that old. 4 man crew on a single mast, single square sail vessel? That's suicide on the open ocean but suitable for the med. Not necessarily. Oceans have been crossed on similar or worse vessels, eg. Captain Bligh's 47 days and 3,500 nautical miles (6,500 km; 4,000 mi) journey on an open boat after the mutiny on Bounty:   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutiny_on_the_Bounty#Bligh.27s_open-boat_voyage Viking knarrs were also single mast, single square sail vessels with a small crew and half-open deck, and they were used to cross the Atlantic. Modern sailors on knarr replicas survive gales routinely.   Most of the naval accidents happen on coasts. If a storm happens, as long as there's nothing but open sea in front of ship, sailors can tie the rudder (or rudder oars), lower sea anchors, reef a storm sail and just bail (also pray), and the ship should be fine. Open decked vessels can lower their mast and spread the sail over the deck to help keep the water outside. Acts 27 has an example of a Roman ship in storm: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+27 Hogge Wild fucked around with this message at 09:19 on Aug 28, 2015 |
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Aug 28, 2015 08:49
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What was the "ouch" word written on those sling bullets? How was it pronounced?
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Aug 28, 2015 09:49
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Hogge Wild posted:Not necessarily. Oceans have been crossed on similar or worse vessels, eg. For the sake of argument the Bounty hardly counts as they already knew what was there. Plus didnt they resort to cannibalism to stay alive? Crossing the Atlantic, while a feet, is not crossing the Atlantic, going around the horn, up the pacific, across the pacific, into the Indian ocean, back around the tip and up the Atlantic again. Also... Dont use the Bible as evidence of anything besides the ability to creatively write.
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Aug 28, 2015 13:32
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LingcodKilla posted:For the sake of argument the Bounty hardly counts as they already knew what was there. Plus didnt they resort to cannibalism to stay alive? Crossing the Atlantic, while a feet, is not crossing the Atlantic, going around the horn, up the pacific, across the pacific, into the Indian ocean, back around the tip and up the Atlantic again. Also... Dont use the Bible as evidence of anything besides the ability to creatively write. I don't think that they resorted to cannibalism. While the Biblical storm story is fictive or at least heavily exaggerated for the sake of a better story, the author had been in a storm or at least consulted someone who knew his stuff, because the sailing methods described were the same that would have been used during the Age of Sail. Ergo, Rome had top quality seamen.
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Aug 28, 2015 15:41
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Keldoclock posted:http://www.amazon.com/Food-Sea-Shipboard-Cuisine-Ancient/dp/1442227362 Thanks for the book recommendation. It's actually that last point that made me post, because I thought the idea of stocking your ship with something just to burn it was kind of funny. Obviously for something ocean-going it's different to beaching your trireme every night.
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Aug 28, 2015 16:53
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Hogge Wild posted:I don't think that they resorted to cannibalism. While the Biblical storm story is fictive or at least heavily exaggerated for the sake of a better story, the author had been in a storm or at least consulted someone who knew his stuff, because the sailing methods described were the same that would have been used during the Age of Sail. Ergo, Rome had top quality seamen. The difference between open ocean (theory and mathematics)seamen and coasters (visual) is so humongous it's like there is a gulf divide between the two. Romans were apparently not suicidal enough to go into the unknown or were but, well, died otherwise some sort of proof or records would say so. Before the invention of a reliable time piece I think the only true open ocean sailors not relying on luck but true navigational skills were the Polynesian. Even that was quite a bit later(the star charts they made were ingenious).They ultimately had the biggest motivation to explore as they were eating each other out of house and home... It's all fascinating and still up to debate.
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Aug 28, 2015 17:26
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Minoans used celestial navigation already in 2000 BC on open seas.
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Aug 28, 2015 17:46
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Hogge Wild posted:Minoans used celestial navigation already in 2000 BC on open seas. Key word seas. In the Med loving up only runs you into shore. Look at the size difference. Geez.
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Aug 28, 2015 18:02
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LingcodKilla posted:Before the invention of a reliable time piece I think the only true open ocean sailors not relying on luck but true navigational skills were the Polynesian. They also relied on their testicles.
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Aug 28, 2015 18:03
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Apparently they dug up some pretty great stuff in Bulgaria    
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Aug 28, 2015 18:28
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cool, links?
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Aug 28, 2015 18:33
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Just some album that somebody posted on FB. https://www.pinterest.com/pin/388365167844934721/ There's some amazing art in the related pins
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Aug 28, 2015 18:36
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Alhazred posted:They also relied on their testicles. Eating your own testicles is inefficient. Better to eat the weakest crew members member.
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Aug 28, 2015 18:50
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LingcodKilla posted:The difference between open ocean (theory and mathematics)seamen and coasters (visual) is so humongous it's like there is a gulf divide between the two. Romans were apparently not suicidal enough to go into the unknown or were but, well, died otherwise some sort of proof or records would say so. I want to make clear up front I don't believe that the Romans sailed on the ocean or anything but expecting records of a one-off event where a dude sailed really far, decided there was just water, and came back to have definitely survived isn't a good idea. 99% of the written material from antiquity has been lost, so lack of records isn't an immediate disqualification for a speculation.
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Aug 28, 2015 21:39
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HEY GAL posted:I know a dude who wrote his MA thesis on the hearth in an early modern French ship at the bottom of the...Gulf? Somewhere in Canada? Whatever it was, it was in the New World. And he said it was just like a hearth on land--bricks and everything--just, it was on a boat. But that was a roundship, not a galley, where you should stop every night. If nothing else, it's because there's no room to sleep on a galley. The Polynesians kept hot embers in a bowl inside another bowl full of water in a box. Alhazred posted:They also relied on their testicles. I'm disappointed you didn't explain the testicle charts. Turns out human testicles are good for sensing waves. You get in the water and look at a chart that tells you how the waves are supposed to feel moving your balls. It's apparently useful for detecting currents reefs and islands over the horizon. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Aug 29, 2015 |
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Aug 29, 2015 01:38
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LingcodKilla posted:For the sake of argument the Bounty hardly counts as they already knew what was there. Plus didnt they resort to cannibalism to stay alive? Crossing the Atlantic, while a feet, is not crossing the Atlantic, going around the horn, up the pacific, across the pacific, into the Indian ocean, back around the tip and up the Atlantic again. Also... Dont use the Bible as evidence of anything besides the ability to creatively write. No cannibalism. Bligh kept his together all the way to Indonesia, with the loss of a single man (to hostile natives). The mutineers were the ones who were constantly loving up. Bligh got a bad rap through the ages because he was on the wrong side of another mutiny in the colony of Sydney.
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Aug 29, 2015 01:53
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Bligh got a bad rap because he was some kinda autistic motherfucker. His contemporaries wrote about his baffling lack of social awareness, rigid adherence to rules and regulations, and his inability to conceive the possibility that other people might not follow rules and orders. I'm skeptical of posthumous diagnosis but those are all classic signs of autism spectrum disorder.
Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 02:36 on Aug 29, 2015 |
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Aug 29, 2015 02:33
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He was a great navigator and sailor. In addition to his great boat journey he also served as Cook's master. But he had a talent at pissing off everyone and I'm surprised that his boat crew didn't feed him to cannibals. I wouldn't be the least surprised if he was on the spectrum.
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Aug 29, 2015 02:43
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Bligh was literally the kind of dude to give you math lessons on Wednesday afternoon, have you savagely beaten Thursday morning, and give you math lessons Thursday afternoon like nothing had happened. One of his officers cited that incident when writing about how Bligh was such a weirdo. They also thought it was weird that he didn't see the mutiny coming after flogging the ship halfway around the world.
Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Aug 29, 2015 |
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Aug 29, 2015 02:55
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The rulebook says there's five lashes for failing your geometry lesson. We all contracted as free, rational men to follow the rulebook. I don't see what the problem is, Mr. Christian. 
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Aug 29, 2015 03:18
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Hogge Wild posted:He was a great navigator and sailor. In addition to his great boat journey he also served as Cook's master. But he had a talent at pissing off everyone and I'm surprised that his boat crew didn't feed him to cannibals. They didn't feed to him to the cannibals because he was a great navigator and sailor, which is exactly what you need most of all when you're in the middle of the Pacific in a tiny rowboat.
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Aug 29, 2015 03:25
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Pity that he got a comission. Master's position suited him perfectly.
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Aug 29, 2015 03:31
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Tao Jones posted:The rulebook says there's five lashes for failing your geometry lesson. We all contracted as free, rational men to follow the rulebook. I don't see what the problem is, Mr. Christian. No the thing is giving math lessons wasn't part of his responsibilities, he just did that for free being nice to his subordinates. That's what was so strange about his relationship to the crew. He was tyrannical and weirdly friendly and didn't seem aware that people hated him.
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Aug 29, 2015 03:33
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Arglebargle III posted:The Polynesians kept hot embers in a bowl inside another bowl full of water in a box. Ok I'm pretending this is real because it's hilarious. My problem is that my calls contract nice and tight when cold so I wouldn't get wave action. Perhaps in true tropical mine would dangle more.
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Aug 29, 2015 04:04
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LingcodKilla posted:Ok I'm pretending this is real because it's hilarious. My problem is that my calls contract nice and tight when cold so I wouldn't get wave action. Perhaps in true tropical mine would dangle more. There's actually a section in the chart that accounts for that. They were pretty thorough.
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Aug 29, 2015 12:50
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LingcodKilla posted:My problem is that my calls contract nice and tight when cold so I wouldn't get wave action.
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Aug 29, 2015 16:34
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did you try pressing in on the emergency release on your backside?
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Aug 29, 2015 17:08
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Arglebargle III posted:No the thing is giving math lessons wasn't part of his responsibilities, he just did that for free being nice to his subordinates. That's what was so strange about his relationship to the crew. He was tyrannical and weirdly friendly and didn't seem aware that people hated him. Well, he did come from the era of rum, sodomy, and the lash. Bligh was giving math lessons to his crew to help them get promoted. By some accounts, he was, if anything, too lenient to his crew. (The Mel Gibson version of Mutiny on the Bounty makes it much more apparent why the crew of the Bounty mutinied. Topless native chicks vs. the lash, the topless native chicks win.) By all accounts Bligh wasn't all that bad, by the standards of the time. If you read the historical accounts he was a bit of a softie when it came to floggings. If anything, he tended to let poo poo slide. It's a shame that pop culture has made Capt Bligh a caricature when the actual Bligh is much more interesting. thrakkorzog fucked around with this message at 12:17 on Sep 2, 2015 |
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Sep 2, 2015 11:05
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I read about the Bounty and my take away is that Christian was in the wrong the whole way. Someone recommend a good book on the Roman Legions.
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Sep 2, 2015 13:41
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quote:By all accounts Bligh wasn't all that bad, by the standards of the time. If you read the historical accounts he was a bit of a softie when it came to floggings. If anything, he tended to let poo poo slide. Jack Aubrey seemed convinced that it was the tendency to alternate between leniency and tyranny that guaranteed mutiny. I don't think Bligh pushed the boundaries in either direction (it seems other captains had happy ships despite going further either way) but I can see how alternating unpredictably could mess with the crew. I count Jack's opinion above most humans. Speaking of which, man I'd love some Patrick O'Brian style writing set in Rome - any ideas?
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Sep 2, 2015 16:11
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