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Blinky2099 posted:update: asked for $88k. a direct quote from a meeting today: "I took a look at the number you threw our way. I think it's more than reasonable, and in fact, we'll probably be able to beat it." Hah, wow. I guess the rub was "somewhat niche"? Perhaps we didn't factor your experience enough. Other positives: apparently your job is hard to fill so when you do try to jump ship ask for the keys to the CEO's daughter's chastity belt.
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Aug 27, 2015 02:05
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Slightly out-of-scope for this thread, but I don't know where else to ask: what's good advice when your boss pulls you aside and asks you about a former co-worker of yours, who has now applied at your current company? Especially if your opinion of said co-worker is less than stellar...
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Aug 27, 2015 06:27
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Blinky2099 posted:update: asked for $88k. a direct quote from a meeting today: "I took a look at the number you threw our way. I think it's more than reasonable, and in fact, we'll probably be able to beat it." hbf posted:Anyone have any resources/advice for renegotiating while staying at the same company? Basically, I was hired during a slow period a couple of years ago when the company (a huge one) was in transition. I was also new to the area and wasn't exactly certain of the averages for the city so I didn't negotiate properly at all. Now my specific line of work is in very high demand and the company itself is doing great. I could easily job hop for +20% increase elsewhere and I'm being headhunted pretty heavily. However, I'd prefer to stay as I really like it and the other options, while they do pay higher, have their own set of negatives. I know they are offering the salary I am gunning for because I referred a friend recently and he strait up showed me his offer letter. Another coworker also divulged their salary when they left for a new position a couple months ago. I am guessing I shouldn't mention these things though. bolind posted:Slightly out-of-scope for this thread, but I don't know where else to ask: what's good advice when your boss pulls you aside and asks you about a former co-worker of yours, who has now applied at your current company? Especially if your opinion of said co-worker is less than stellar... Dik Hz fucked around with this message at 12:03 on Aug 27, 2015 |
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Aug 27, 2015 11:54
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bolind posted:Slightly out-of-scope for this thread, but I don't know where else to ask: what's good advice when your boss pulls you aside and asks you about a former co-worker of yours, who has now applied at your current company? Especially if your opinion of said co-worker is less than stellar... Tell the truth. If you say something that makes your boss remember "hey bolind vouched for this guy" and he's a total gently caress-up, it's going to haunt you.
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Aug 27, 2015 13:30
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Personally, I'd abort. Just say you knew him/her and and they seemed like a nice person but you couldn't really evaluate their job performance because you never worked on the same projects or something. Not saying that's the right answer, just what I'd do.
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Aug 27, 2015 13:49
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Saint Fu posted:Personally, I'd abort. Just say you knew him/her and and they seemed like a nice person but you couldn't really evaluate their job performance because you never worked on the same projects or something. Not saying that's the right answer, just what I'd do. Don't do this, it's avoidant and childish.
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Aug 27, 2015 14:53
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Really? I've always thought talking down about people behind their back was childish. I guess it is avoidant though.
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Aug 27, 2015 15:01
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bolind posted:Slightly out-of-scope for this thread, but I don't know where else to ask: what's good advice when your boss pulls you aside and asks you about a former co-worker of yours, who has now applied at your current company? Especially if your opinion of said co-worker is less than stellar... In the U.S. You can actually be sued if you say anything negative which isn't factual and they don't get hired and vice versa if you say something unduly positive and they turn out to be a bad hire. It's why many companies now have a policy of providing factual referrals only. 'Yes this person worked here on these dates, they left on their own / were terminated.' If you're uncomfortable you should probably just say something like you knew them but not well enough to give a useful opinion.
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Aug 27, 2015 15:13
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Saint Fu posted:Really? I've always thought talking down about people behind their back was childish. I guess it is avoidant though. How is it childish to provide an accurate assessment of a potential colleague to a supervisor? This isn't a social question. Obviously you shouldn't try to be a dick or say anything that is not factual, but stuff like "This person had difficulty meeting deadlines" is hard to dispute. I have good relationships with my supervisors, though, so I would not be at all concerned about anything blowing back on me.
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Aug 27, 2015 15:47
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I would definitely say I didn't have a high opinion of someone I didn't have a high opinion of. If they get hired in a role that I interact with, I'd have to work extra to carry them along (and sometimes might be unable to do it). Plus my boss would be like "jeez, I guess person X doesn't know much or they could have helped us avoid this". I don't see any upside in not presenting an opinion.
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Aug 27, 2015 15:51
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Jedi Knight Luigi posted:I recently went through something similar to your situation. I'm guessing at best they will meet you halfway between the difference in what you're making now and what everyone else was making. Dik Hz posted:Sorry, but it's rarely possible. People have a first-impression fallacy where they continue to see you as the person that walked in the door on day one. To get paid you need to move to a new job where people don't remember you as less experienced and desperate. It gets worse, too. People have a tendency to justify your lower salary as well. Bosses tend to view people who make more money as more competent and more deserving of further raises, regardless of performance. Well, expected this sort of answer, but still sucks. I'm going to try though, just to see what happens. Any advice for how to proceed? If they "meet in the middle" should I throw out a very high number to start?
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Aug 27, 2015 16:49
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hbf posted:Well, expected this sort of answer, but still sucks. You should do that anyway.
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Aug 27, 2015 16:53
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hi negotiation thread, a little over a year ago I posted here for some advice and it was really helpful. In particular, I had an offer that was a huge jump in pay and way above what I expected, but wouldn't budge past what they had offered when I countered. People here, particularly Eisenhower said it was smart to take the job and not sweat it. I accepted the job and its gone great but I thought you guys would laugh at what happened after: so in my counter I asked for like 5% more and they said they couldn't budge. After 6 months I got a call and was told that they'd done a market analysis and realized they needed to pay people more to meet demand and I was getting a pay bump of.... 5%. Knowing the company and how things are organized, I don't believe this was more than coincidence (or maybe I'm the rain man of compensation). Funny how things work out. Also, I used some of what I learned from that journey to get a promotion and ~10% more pay (on top of that 4% that occurred previously) at my first annual review.
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Aug 27, 2015 21:42
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Xguard86 posted:hi negotiation thread,   
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Aug 28, 2015 14:17
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Kalenn Istarion posted:In the U.S. You can actually be sued if you say anything negative which isn't factual and they don't get hired and vice versa if you say something unduly positive and they turn out to be a bad hire. Xguard86 posted:hi negotiation thread,  )
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Aug 31, 2015 00:07
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Dik Hz posted:IANAL, but I'm pretty sure you can't be sued if you're not the hiring manager. Also, you can never be sued if what you say is accurate. Which is why you should say things that can't be proved inaccurate. And beyond that, you can clearly communicate disapproval to anyone even slightly perceptive without saying anything that could be construed in a court of law as inaccurate. Pretty sure the onus is in the other direction - you have to have a factual basis for negative comments or can be construed as libellous, but I'm not a U.S. Employment lawyer and haven't had occasion to talk to one in ages. Point is, be very cautious on who and how you provide feedback on former co-workers.
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Aug 31, 2015 00:52
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Kalenn Istarion posted:Pretty sure the onus is in the other direction - you have to have a factual basis for negative comments or can be construed as libellous, but I'm not a U.S. Employment lawyer and haven't had occasion to talk to one in ages. Point is, be very cautious on who and how you provide feedback on former co-workers. But I'd love to hear from an employment attorney on this if one wants to chime in.
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Aug 31, 2015 01:04
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Yeah, the commentary I have is from internal legal, and was geared to be conservative rather than balanced so I'd be interested to hear whether there's accepted practice on this as well.
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Aug 31, 2015 01:33
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It's been a while since I volunteered at an employment law clinic, and I can't recall more than one potential defamation case ever coming up... that said, here's some very basic background on defamation: Anyone can bring a lawsuit against anyone for anything. Whether they can win that lawsuit, or even have it withstand being summarily dismissed, is another story. Defamation has four elements as applied to private figures (such as ex co-workers): 1) A person must make a false statement, presented as fact (and not opinion), about another person; 2) The false statement must be a non-privileged communication published to a third party; 3) The person making the false statement did so intentionally or negligently; 4) The false statement has resulted in damages to the other person (in most cases, this can only be actual damages). To build his or her prima facie case, a plaintiff would have to provide evidence that the defendant made a false statement of fact to a third party that was injurious to the plaintiff and that it was not a privileged communication. The plaintiff would then have to show through the preponderance of the evidence that the defendant did so either intentionally or negligently to win the lawsuit. Note that traditionally, there is such a thing as defamation per se, where damages are automatically presumed. False statements about a person's fitness to practice their profession or trade falls under this category (in those jurisdictions that have kept defamation per se torts, at any rate). Also worth noting is that some states have statutes protecting employers who give references that include their evaluation of the former employee's performance. For example, in California, an employer would be immune to a defamation lawsuit under California Civil Code Section 47(c) unless the ex-employee could show actual malice. Finally, truth is an affirmative defense to defamation. An affirmative defense of truth means that the defendant admits to having published the injurious statements, intentionally or negligently: it's just that they were true, not false. The burden of proof shifts to the defendant at this point, though sometimes the burden of proof is lowered from preponderance of the evidence to clear and convincing evidence.
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Aug 31, 2015 02:17
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I guess this isn't a story about getting a raise per se, which will make sense later, but I did negotiate for a change in pay format because I hated the old one, so I'm going to post a win, even though other people might say it isn't (please do, I want to learn more from this thread!). This is probably too long, but our pay system isn't just a salary or hourly rate.MickeyFinn posted:As a warning to people reading this thread: I did not negotiate my current job because it was the only job offer I got out of grad school and now I'm doing a job that I really like but doesn't pay nearly enough. The business plan (what passes for one around here) depends on me being here in 5 years, so I know they want to keep me. But I want to go in to salary negotiations here with another offer, so I'm currently looking for another job that I would like doing, just so I can negotiate for better pay at the one I am currently doing. Moral of the story is that I have to land two jobs because I did not negotiate for the first. I posted this last year, it sucked. I'm a "salaried" employee, but my company's pay structure goes like this. You get an hourly rate, that is your base pay, that is supposed to account for 80% of your income. On top of this there are incentive bonuses that add up during the year and you "cash out" by charging for overtime, instead of not charging for overtime. There is also an end of year bonus. These two bonuses are meant to account for 20% of your income. Both bonus structures are totally opaque and intentionally so and they are also haphazardly run. As a pretty conservative guy with money, I can't count on that money at all. The worst part of this is that with all the bonuses the pay is middling for my education level, experience and value to the company. A few months ago my boss walks in to my office to talk about the fact that I'm pulling the weight of two people and its totally rad and that they are going to have trouble hiring the other guy who quit after 10ish months and whose job posting was up for 1.5 years and I should talk to him about keeping the work load under control and getting support and blah blah. So I figure during the August raise period its time to talk money for the first time at this job. Two weeks ago I get notice of a raise in my base rate of $40/hour to $45/hour. I immediately shoot back with information from my PhD cohort showing that even at the new level I'm under paid on the base rate and that $60 would be a better rate (really high for my job). I don't talk about ending the bonus structure, figuring if they just want to talk about base rate I'll be laughing. Yesterday, my boss comes in to my office telling me that $60/hour is really high and giving me the talk you might expect. I tell him that what I want is to remove myself from the bonus system and that I want to talk about total take-home pay and not base rate plus some to-be-named-at-his-sole-discretion number and he writes the following down of what I should be making over the next year (August to August): $93,600 base $10,000 points bonus $10,000 end-of-year bonus ------------------------- $113,600/year Both of the bonus numbers are higher than I've ever seen (the last two years I've made $90k total). He tells me that he would be really shocked if the EOY bonus is lower than that over the next few years because over the last 4 years, they haven't paid a bonus once. The points bonus he claims is in the bag. He tells me he doesn't want to talk about it any more and when I get home last night I think about the salary data and decide I'd be happy to have a take-home salary of $102k*1.03^2.75 = $111k (about $53.50/hour). He comes into my office today to tell me he wants to split the difference between the hourly rate he offered and the one I countered (anchoring works!). I respond that the numbers he gave me yesterday, discounted for the 25% chance of not getting an EOY bonus comes out to $53.50/hour and he accepted on the spot. Further, I want to cash out my points immediately and want 75% of the mystery EOY bonus at that time. He agreed to that too. So, I got everything I want and the only remaining question is if he is going to try to gently caress me on the EOY bonus I earned for 3/4 of the year. Maybe. Since the 3% SIMPLE IRA match is based on my base rate I get another $530/year in matching, reducing what I "paid" to secure my income and get out of that bonus system I hate. TL;DR I got everything I wanted by negotiating. Thanks thread! MickeyFinn fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Sep 2, 2015 |
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Sep 2, 2015 02:38
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Yeah, you done good. Get that base, gently caress bonuses.
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Sep 2, 2015 06:32
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I'd like to share a success story about how if you say something, you can easily make a lot of money for a few minutes of talking. In my case, 2 minutes of talking equaled $5,000. I am an academic was recently offered an industry position. It's no secret that the industry pays a lot more than academia, and when I gave my inflated target range they told me the actual salary they can offer was my real target range. One thing they did is say that they can't negotiate their base salary, and since they were already at my real target I didn't want to fight for a grand more or something. So, I did what the thread suggests and asked about other things, and was able to negotiate a 5,000 sign-on bonus just because I told them I needed to buy a car and would like a sign-on bonus to help pay for it. So thanks thread, for making me realize I can ask for non-base salary things if they don't look like they will budge there!
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Sep 2, 2015 12:44
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I feel like I'm a broken record every time I say it, but I'm saying it anyway: I love every time someone comes back to this thread and reports their successes. It's more valuable than any of the advice we give; it's empirical data showing that the advice we give works. Also it's warm fuzzy to help people not be suckers. 
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Sep 2, 2015 13:53
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Everyone thinks their situation is unique and I'm no exception, so I would like some input. I failed to negotiate salary back when I was hired. Don't be like me! I'm an engineer at an aerospace defense contractor with four years experience. My department has huge retention problems with 0-5 year engineers. At 2 years I started a rotation that keeps me in the same department and develops consistent skills, three programs for ten months each. That ends q1 next year at review time. As a result I have much more broad experience in the department than anyone in my grade. I'm told that I was close to a below the zone promotion last year so I expect to be promoted next review. I currently make 70k and know from internal posted ranges that the range for my grade is 47-97k with midpoint 72.5. Worse, this range includes all employees, not just engineers and my dept is apparently hard to recruit. Ouch! Pay for next grade is 56-121k, 88.5 mid. The next promotion would be at least five years away. Here's the issue. I do not know one person who has gotten a raise outside of the review, and promotions tend to be 8-10% max. I'm meeting with my boss (one level down from the final decision maker for budget) soon to discuss my salary and I'll be telling him that I believe I belong on the high end of the current grade scale. He'll come back with something about being promoted, and I'm not sure what to say next. Ideally, I get an adjustment today and that has no impact on the promotion, but that's not likely. My best idea so far is to ask him honesty how he would handle it if he was in my shoes. He's not talkative but we have a good relationship and I trust him. Thanks in advance and thanks to everyone else who has posted their stories.
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Sep 2, 2015 20:22
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antiga posted:Everyone thinks their situation is unique and I'm no exception, so I would like some input. I failed to negotiate salary back when I was hired. Don't be like me! The person with whom you are negotiating is your adversary during the negotiation. It doesn't matter if you trust him, his interests are to have a department budget he can afford, and giving you a raise reduces the available wiggle room in that budget. This is true no matter how nice your boss is. It sounds like you are underpaid and have broad qualifications. It also sounds like you are posting in this thread very soon to your salary negotiations. So: 1. You haven't discussed anything about competing offers. 2. You are thinking about asking the person with whom you are negotiating how to make your adversarial position stronger. 3. You are preparing with little in the way of lead time You are making plans for the wrong game. You probably are a smart person who completed assignments in school near their due dates and built up a feedback loop of "do the right thing near the close of the window of opportunity, get the best outcome (an A+)". You think that the completion of these programs means you will get a good raise. You want to be loyal to your boss and think you and he are on the same team at all points in time. This is how institutional thinking cripples you. You are at this very moment a sucker. You need to stop thinking like a sucker if you want good compensation. 1. You need to have leverage when you are negotiating. Leverage in almost all negotiations is an offer from a competing employer. If you are sufficiently integral to a business it can be merely the threat of securing an offer from a competing employer. You are going to have a difficult time securing this before your discuss salary. 2. You need to be willing to leave. If you reflect on how awesome your current employment is because you value your team, then enjoy making your below average compensation. 3. You need to reflect on the retention problem. This shows that your employer doesn't have much opportunity to turn down your demands, but it also shows they might not be smart enough to understand that they can't afford to NOT pay people well. See 2. 4. Accordingly if they have retention problems your team will consist of people who will leave soon, cannot leave soon due to their professional capacities being insufficient, or, like you, do not understand the game they are playing. The only leverage you have is their poor retention. You can try and bluff with this to get a good raise. Because you did not prepare yourself by getting competing offers all you can do is bluff. If they call your bluff then you can take what they end up offering you, or you can hop jobs and probably get a sizable raise. So, good luck with your bluff.
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Sep 3, 2015 14:03
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Dwight Eisenhower posted:The person with whom you are negotiating is your adversary during the negotiation. It doesn't matter if you trust him, his interests are to have a department budget he can afford, and giving you a raise reduces the available wiggle room in that budget. This is true no matter how nice your boss is. Hm, thanks for the input. That's not how I see it, but maybe I explained poorly. My boss is not the decision maker, like I said he is one level away so his boss ("big boss") is making the call. I am meeting with my boss shortly to discuss salary (and set expectations in the likely event that he chooses to share everything I say with the decision maker), not negotiate. I do not expect anything to change until Q1 '16 with the next review, and I intend to be very well prepared. The retention issue is a major part of my leverage. My assignment is highly public within the organization and the previous person in my shoes left the company instead of completing the rotation. If the same thing happened with me it would reflect extremely poorly on big boss. My aversion to showing up for this discussion with an offer letter is that it would be an ultimatum and I think this can be resolved without extreme measures. I have reliable "market" data and evidence through my assignments and my previous review that I'm performing well. The sort of questions I was planning to ask would be to get a feel for whether showing up with an offer would rub the big boss the wrong way, which I think is very likely. Then again, I've thought the posts in this thread were generally dead on when talking about other people. I could be too close to the issue to be objective.
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Sep 3, 2015 22:55
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antiga posted:Then again, I've thought the posts in this thread were generally dead on when talking about other people. I could be too close to the issue to be objective. Also, where do you live, if you don't mind saying on-line? I'm in the same sector and might be able to help give you more perspective on salary. Here in DC, aerospace engineers with 5 years of experience make $80k-$120k, with the top earners having higher security clearances and masters degrees.
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Sep 4, 2015 05:12
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antiga posted:I am meeting with my boss shortly to discuss salary (and set expectations in the likely event that he chooses to share everything I say with the decision maker), not negotiate. Any salary discussion is a negotiation. Full stop. Your boss is meeting with you to feel the situation out. If you put out the wrong signals, he will take advantage of you. quote:My aversion to showing up for this discussion with an offer letter is that it would be an ultimatum and I think this can be resolved without extreme measures. I have reliable "market" data and evidence through my assignments and my previous review that I'm performing well. Do not be afraid of giving ultimatums. Obviously you don't want to up and say "gimme $$$ or I walk" unless you're in a uniquely integral position, but if your boss ascertains that you're unwilling to walk away from your job, you've lost most of your leverage and they'll offer you a pittance. Be cold. Give hard data, directed toward numbers that favor you. If your boss has a thoughtful bone in his body, he'll put 2 and 2 together and realize that if he doesn't pay you, someone else will.
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Sep 4, 2015 13:44
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swenblack posted:I think this may be the case. Everything Dwight Eisenhower said was spot on. Your boss is not on your side. Thanks for the input. Location is Connecticut so upper-moderate cost of living, but no M.S. and no clearance. I estimate that about ten percent of the engineers here have a secret. E: not a children, wouldn't you agree that what you described (use data, imply that I will interview elsewhere if they won't budge on compensation) is a lot less like an ultimatum than showing up with a (presumably time sensitive) offer for them to match? To me showing up with the offer letter is exactly the same as saying gimme money or I walk. antiga fucked around with this message at 16:18 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 16:11
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The point is not to throw another offer in their face. The point is the confidence gained by having an alternative which will make you happy. It is so effective that you need not even tell them there is another offer. It gives you direct confirmation of your value in the market, your present company is free to disagree.
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Sep 4, 2015 18:55
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And do you really want them to not have to respond quickly? How often does that work? "oh yeah you present a good point, we'll see what we can do" *6 months pass* "what do you mean you want a raise, ask in FY18"
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Sep 4, 2015 19:57
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antiga posted:Hm, thanks for the input. That's not how I see it, but maybe I explained poorly. My boss is not the decision maker, like I said he is one level away so his boss ("big boss") is making the call. I am meeting with my boss shortly to discuss salary (and set expectations in the likely event that he chooses to share everything I say with the decision maker), not negotiate. I do not expect anything to change until Q1 '16 with the next review, and I intend to be very well prepared.
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Sep 4, 2015 23:21
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antiga posted:Thanks for the input. Location is Connecticut so upper-moderate cost of living, but no M.S. and no clearance. I estimate that about ten percent of the engineers here have a secret.
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Sep 5, 2015 01:54
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swenblack posted:I've actually spent a fair amount of time in Simsbury. Six figures is a stretch, but I don't think $85k is unreasonable. I'd also highly encourage you to negotiate tuition reimbursement and start working on your masters. It's an easy way to increase your total compensation without impacting your boss's budget. I am actually doing this already but it's a MBA not a MS so I figured it wasn't relevant yet. Everyone gets the same amount so the education benefits don't affect the ranges I mentioned.
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Sep 5, 2015 16:18
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Boot and Rally posted:The point is not to throw another offer in their face. The point is the confidence gained by having an alternative which will make you happy. It is so effective that you need not even tell them there is another offer. It gives you direct confirmation of your value in the market, your present company is free to disagree. Exactly this. If you know that you can take your ball and go, even if you don't say as much, it shines through in everything you say and do. You will demand what you are worth and you will not hesitate to get it regardless if it is from your present employer or a future one. antiga posted:Thanks for the input. Location is Connecticut so upper-moderate cost of living, but no M.S. and no clearance. I estimate that about ten percent of the engineers here have a secret. Getting other offers gives you data about what you are worth to other employers, and gives you the confidence that you can get up and leave. It shows you what the costs of Playing the Game are, and that it is sometimes costlier to just coast with what you are doing instead of chasing down something better. Once you're good at Playing the Game, other people who know what they are doing can see it in what you do. Knowing the moves and strong play show and are all the threat you need. You don't say that you're going to leave if you don't get what you want, it just shows through in everything else that you say and do that you're prepared to get an advantageous outcome. It can either involve the part with whom you are negotiating, or someone else. But the way you express yourself, you're not Playing the Game yet, you don't even have all the rules down. That's doesn't reflect on you, it reflects on how we educate and equip people in this country. The way people are educated is to grow up and be prayed upon by those who do Play the Game. Getting prepped will start to get your head in the game.
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Sep 6, 2015 20:31
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Dik Hz posted:with the number of success stories in this thread, I suspect we're well over the $1,000,000 level in gained total earnings for goons. Myself included. Thanks in part to the advice in here, I got a good raise recently. Thanks in part to this thread (call it 40% this thread & other research, 40% opportunity, and 20% strategy & personability) I went from grossing 98k in 2013 to 146k in 2014 with a nice 5% bonus to start off 2015. Not bad for a recession graduate. Thanks, everybody. swenblack posted:This is your life. Take charge of it.
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Sep 9, 2015 22:06
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Sunny Side Up posted:Thanks in part to this thread (call it 40% this thread & other research, 40% opportunity, and 20% strategy & personability) I went from grossing 98k in 2013 to 146k in 2014 with a nice 5% bonus to start off 2015. Not bad for a recession graduate. Awesome! What specifically helped you? Did you jump jobs, or were you able to get a salary correction from your present employer? How did your negotiations go?
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Sep 10, 2015 14:12
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Welp I have gently caress all in experience negotiating an offer. I also don't know how much I should be getting paid because the Air Force grossly underpays us and I don't have a second offer for comparison. I'm also not sure what experience level I'm being considered for but from what I'm gathering I should clearly ask for more anyway. How do I even bring that up? Do I mention another offer that doesn't exist? For reference I'm being offered around 53k/year to calibrate things.
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Sep 12, 2015 06:06
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To do what, exactly?
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Sep 12, 2015 15:58
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A Kpro posted:Welp I have gently caress all in experience negotiating an offer. I also don't know how much I should be getting paid because the Air Force grossly underpays us and I don't have a second offer for comparison. I'm also not sure what experience level I'm being considered for but from what I'm gathering I should clearly ask for more anyway. How do I even bring that up? Do I mention another offer that doesn't exist? For reference I'm being offered around 53k/year to calibrate things. The National Guard pays wg-11 pay to calibration technicians. In the "rest of us" that is roughly 70k a year with federal retirement and ridiculous vacation. 53k is low. Very low. I made that as the scheduler for the calibration shop.
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Sep 12, 2015 19:02
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