|
In the northeast US there are virtually 0 roads like this because the roads are built without massive earth dams on their sides and the roadsides are mowed regularly. How did the roads over there end up like that? Is that just what happens to roads when they're used as cow paths for 800 years and then paved or something?
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2015 20:52
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 20:55 |
|
|
Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:In the northeast US there are virtually 0 roads like this because the roads are built without massive earth dams on their sides and the roadsides are mowed regularly. How did the roads over there end up like that? Is that just what happens to roads when they're used as cow paths for 800 years and then paved or something? Farm access roads mostly. If they were wide enough to herd cows or ride a horse and cart they were considered good. Single track roads are equal parts fun and scary simply because you're hosed if anything comes the other way. There's usually little lay-bys where you can pull over and move out of the way but sometimes you'll be reversing up the road as the bushes and what not obscure your view.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2015 21:12
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8boWQvgo18U&t=294s
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2015 21:14
|
|
|
88h88 posted:Farm access roads mostly. If they were wide enough to herd cows or ride a horse and cart they were considered good. Single track roads are equal parts fun and scary simply because you're hosed if anything comes the other way. There's usually little lay-bys where you can pull over and move out of the way but sometimes you'll be reversing up the road as the bushes and what not obscure your view. Logging roads are pretty much the same way in North America anywhere there's a forestry industry, with the added fun of a whole bunch of steep hills with switchbacks and poo poo.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2015 21:19
|
|
|
They pulled in front of a firetruck. With lights and sirens going. Unfuckingbelievable. edit: And horns too!
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2015 21:50
|
|
|
Vids like that are why I tell riders that all the Hi-Vis gear and riding methods designed to get people's attention do help, but they are not a guarantee. Wow.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2015 21:58
|
|
|
According to the video description the excuse the driver of the car gave was that she couldn't see the truck due to the sun being in her eyes.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2015 22:08
|
|
|
I'm going to post the description of the video, because it is very good and a reminder of why, even in cases like this, neither party is 100% at fault like you would think:quote:This vehicle accident should serve as a reminder that anything can happen, regardless of how good the chauffeur is behind the wheel. In, IIRC, 2007, ASU did a study of response times from one side of the Phoenix metro area to the other (for instance, from Peoria to Chandler or Queen Creek) with lights and sirens (code 3) versus normal abide-by-traffic-laws driving (code 1 or 2), and found an average of 30-45 seconds in difference for what could be a 15-25 mile response. Since that paper was published, the firefighters and the ambulance companies have modified their code 3 driving policies. In Phoenix, the firefighters and the local ambulance companies policies state that we will stop at all red lights, and practice the "Idaho stop law" at all stop signs, clear the intersection, then proceed through. Of course, there are rule breakers on both sides of the firefighter/ambulance line (that get excited and just blow through red lights and intersections), but in general we don't drive like he did in the video, even though his driving was perfectly fine from a state law standpoint. A separate study also showed that for every 10 miles or so of code 3 driving, we caused 2 "wake accidents" behind us due to traffic changes (those accidents that happen when somebody pulls back into the road after pulling over for us and gets sideswiped, or stops suddenly at a green light for us and gets rear-ended, etc). I mean, there are times where 30 seconds can make a difference immediately later in life (neuro deficits post CVA, for example, can greatly change with even a few minutes delay in treatment), but if it's down to those 30 seconds in responding, that means the outcome could also hinge on menial things like how long it takes the EMT or paramedic to spike the fluid bag or unpackage and prepare literally anything in the ambulance. So, we will respond as fast as safely possible, but if 15 seconds will be the difference between life and death for the patient, then we'll train harder and harder to be faster once we're actually on-scene, and maybe drive a little safer to the call to prevent accidents like the video. It's not our call to decide that the person-we're-responding-to's life is worth more than those we will cross en-route, and the outcome of the wake accidents can make that ratio even worse. Disgruntled Bovine posted:According to the video description the excuse the driver of the car gave was that she couldn't see the truck due to the sun being in her eyes. Well, if you watch, the sun is directly behind the truck, and the ground is wet and reflective, so that is actually a perfectly good (if lame) excuse that you have to watch out for when you're an engineer on an apparatus. It doesn't change the fault balance of the accident (it is a driver's responsibility to clear an intersection, and if the sun prevents them clearing it, then they should not proceed), but on the flipside, who's at fault doesn't change the physics of what she can and cannot see. I'm not absolving the driver of guilt, just saying that you have to keep in mind all factors, and pointing out that ASU's study puts driving techniques into perspective. The first thing we learn in EVOC, literally in the first ten minutes of the first powerpoint, is that we only go code 3 because people expect us to. In nearly all scenarios (barring actual fires, because actual fires are an extremely small percentage of calls) we would never go code 3 if we had the choice because the collateral damage isn't worth it, and the response times aren't all that different in the end anyway. So, if you're in the Phoenix area and wondering why all of the ambulances and fire apparatuses, strobes on or not, take all corners really slowly, take 1/4 mile to stop at red lights and another 1/4 mile to get up to speed, and in general drive like geriatrics that still understand what a turn signal is, it's because we've figured out that statistically better outcomes for the patient come from safer, if slower, driving to the call, and a smoother ride to the hospital. In most calls it doesn't matter how fast we get to them (within reason), but instead how smoothly and bumpless we can transport them and the medic caring for them in the back. Don't be hatin' because we're slow - the truth is all ambulances are slow, but you expect them to be fast, and we only turn the lights on because it's what the taxpayers expect. Queen_Combat fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Aug 31, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2015 22:14
|
|
|
Geirskogul posted:A separate study also showed that for every 10 miles or so of code 3 driving, we caused 2 "wake accidents" behind us due to traffic changes (those accidents that happen when somebody pulls back into the road after pulling over for us and gets sideswiped, or stops suddenly at a green light for us and gets rear-ended, etc). I destroyed some poor bastard's Chevy Colorado like this while driving my 1980 F250. The Neon in front of the Colorado stopped suddenly at a green for an ambulance, then the Colorado followed suit, and I had a choice between the ditch and a concrete power pole or the back corner of the Colorado. I chose the Colorado. Sheriff didn't even bat an eye when I told him what happened, just shook his head and helped me pull the bumper out of my tire so I could drive home.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2015 22:22
|
|
|
Sounds like you were following too close or should have been more alert when you heard the ambulance.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2015 22:28
|
|
|
Disgruntled Bovine posted:Sounds like you were following too close or should have been more alert when you heard the ambulance. Following too close maybe, but the sirens are entirely too directional. Trust me when I say any vehicle other than the one immediately at the front of the crossroads can't hear us. It's like a 15 degree cone. Tall buildings and bushes make this worse.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2015 22:31
|
|
|
That's weird because I usually have no problem hearing ambulances and fire engines coming long before I see them. I wouldn't think a 1980 F250 would have great sound insulation either. Though sometimes they don't use the siren until they're right up on the intersection, which doesn't exactly help matters.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2015 22:36
|
|
|
It's the sort of thing begging for car-to-car communications so the emergency vehicles could broadcast their presence and everyone gets an indicator on their dash pointing it out. Too bad we're ten years away from it as no one can agree on a protocol, and no one wants network connectivity in their car anyways as apparently the manufacturers are incapable of implementing basic security. As it is now, if I see the white flashing light on a stop light I get super cautious about approaching an intersection until I can actually spot the emergency vehicle.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2015 22:36
|
|
|
88h88 posted:Farm access roads mostly. If they were wide enough to herd cows or ride a horse and cart they were considered good. Single track roads are equal parts fun and scary simply because you're hosed if anything comes the other way. There's usually little lay-bys where you can pull over and move out of the way but sometimes you'll be reversing up the road as the bushes and what not obscure your view. What really annoys me living in the sticks is that Garmin frequently can't tell the difference between a road like that and a major route, since they are both classed as 60mph. More than once, I've crawled along at 25mph, only to discover that I am running parallel with a nice, wide 60mph road because Garmin thinks my route is 100m shorter.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2015 22:37
|
|
|
Geirskogul posted:Following too close maybe, but the sirens are entirely too directional. Trust me when I say any vehicle other than the one immediately at the front of the crossroads can't hear us. It's like a 15 degree cone. Tall buildings and bushes make this worse. Be that as it may, it's still your responsibility to keep enough following distance that you can brake safely, even if the vehicle in front does a full-on 100% emergency stop. E: I do agree that sirens can be hard to hear with the windows closed, especially if there are lots of trees or buildings to block the sound. Obviously it's completely impossible if you have music playing, but that's obvious. The reason I'm so adamant about following distance is that I've been hit from behind because I stopped for an ambulance. I've also been nearly plowed into multiple times on the motorway due to sudden heavy or completely stopped traffic. I stop smoothly from a safe distance, with the brake lights on the whole time and my four way flashers if there's a large drop in speed. Even then, I've had people stop behind me with squealing tires, where I felt absolutely certain they were going to hit me. Maintain proper following distance and keep your eyes on the road, people! KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Aug 31, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2015 22:40
|
|
|
xzzy posted:It's the sort of thing begging for car-to-car communications so the emergency vehicles could broadcast their presence and everyone gets an indicator on their dash pointing it out. See, I immediately think someone will learn to spoof the signal and all hell will break loose. For the LULZ.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2015 22:41
|
|
|
Rev. Dr. Moses P. Lester posted:In the northeast US there are virtually 0 roads like this because the roads are built without massive earth dams on their sides and the roadsides are mowed regularly. How did the roads over there end up like that? Is that just what happens to roads when they're used as cow paths for 800 years and then paved or something? A lot of rural roads in the UK (and the rest of Europe) come from dirt roads that date back potentially hundreds of years ago. Now its mostly farm machinery, the random car and the occasional cyclist, and quite simply they don't see enough use from the general public to warrant the cost of widening the road, even if it was only a couple of feet either side. In addition there is often a strong NIMBY contingent in the area while will raise merry hell if you dare to tarmac over an inch of the countryside because "it would disrupt the character of the area and local environment" even though we've only built on 7% of usable land in the UK. Incidentally these same people often complain when their massive wannabe 4x4 is too large to drive easily and gets an alloy taken out by a pothole.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2015 22:46
|
|
|
Geirskogul posted:Well, if you watch, the sun is directly behind the truck, and the ground is wet and reflective, so that is actually a perfectly good (if lame) excuse that you have to watch out for when you're an engineer on an apparatus. It doesn't change the fault balance of the accident (it is a driver's responsibility to clear an intersection, and if the sun prevents them clearing it, then they should not proceed), but on the flipside, who's at fault doesn't change the physics of what she can and cannot see. But was she also deaf or do old Pontiac Grand Am's have really good sound deadening? Edit: nevermind, description said she heard sirens. Boy when I heard siren and I can't tell where they're coming from I go into full alert mode. davebo fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Aug 31, 2015 |
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2015 22:54
|
|
|
Geirskogul posted:I'm not absolving the driver of guilt
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2015 23:09
|
|
|
Geirskogul posted:The first thing we learn in EVOC, literally in the first ten minutes of the first powerpoint, is that we only go code 3 because people expect us to. Is this common? Because it clashes with my experience of a firetruck or two shrieking up and down residential roads at 2AM what seems like every goddamn night. Ain't no taxpayers gonna say we prefer to be scared awake frequently by you guys.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2015 23:20
|
|
|
Geirskogul posted:In, IIRC, 2007, ASU did a study of response times from one side of the Phoenix metro area to the other (for instance, from Peoria to Chandler or Queen Creek) with lights and sirens (code 3) versus normal abide-by-traffic-laws driving (code 1 or 2), and found an average of 30-45 seconds in difference for what could be a 15-25 mile response. Since that paper was published, the firefighters and the ambulance companies have modified their code 3 driving policies. In Phoenix, the firefighters and the local ambulance companies policies state that we will stop at all red lights, and practice the "Idaho stop law" at all stop signs, clear the intersection, then proceed through. Of course, there are rule breakers on both sides of the firefighter/ambulance line (that get excited and just blow through red lights and intersections), but in general we don't drive like he did in the video, even though his driving was perfectly fine from a state law standpoint. A separate study also showed that for every 10 miles or so of code 3 driving, we caused 2 "wake accidents" behind us due to traffic changes (those accidents that happen when somebody pulls back into the road after pulling over for us and gets sideswiped, or stops suddenly at a green light for us and gets rear-ended, etc). I was wondering why I never seem to see ambulances / fire trucks blowing through intersections, and now I know why. Surprising that it saves that little time, but I guess it makes sense when considering that you guys probably aren't hitting speeds that much higher than peak regular traffic speeds either.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2015 23:55
|
|
|
PT6A posted:Logging roads are pretty much the same way in North America anywhere there's a forestry industry, with the added fun of a whole bunch of steep hills with switchbacks and poo poo. The general rule for this is "downhill traffic has the right of way". It's most likely that empty rigs go up and loaded trucks come down. I've reversed more than a few miles and watched others backing up for me during my firewood cutting days.
|
|
#
?
Aug 31, 2015 23:56
|
|
|
Y'all ever get "that freaky feeling" while watching traffic? Happened to me earlier and probably saved me from getting into an accident. Was riding my motorcycle today. Guy in a white Nissan in the right lane was stopped at a light. He was inching back and forth so much I could notice it about 250 meters back. The light changed before I hit the intersection. That dude was making me really nervous so I slowed way down. Glad I did, because he suddenly turned way left, cut across 2 lanes and almost clipped a car going straight. Had I been going through speed I was originally going he would have hit me. Of course the batteries in the gopro were dead.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 00:19
|
|
|
IOwnCalculus posted:I was wondering why I never seem to see ambulances / fire trucks blowing through intersections, and now I know why. Surprising that it saves that little time, but I guess it makes sense when considering that you guys probably aren't hitting speeds that much higher than peak regular traffic speeds either. You can see what happens when they do try that in those russian dashcam videos. Unless you're looking to have a crash on each call, it's clearly necessary to slow the hell own and ensure that each intersection s clear. I assume the sirens are still used to get through the traffic quicker, however.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 00:24
|
|
|
There's always serendipity every now and again when just turning on the lights and using the airhorn occasionally can make a normally 15-minute drive take 8, but there's the other times (a lot of the time) where it freezes people up and makes us take longer, especially in rush hour. And it depends where we're going; if we're going eastward out of phoenix at 1630 then we're hosed either way because the traffic is so thick that we literally have to shut down and go with the flow or everything goes from near gridlock to a very thick local gridlock around the truck. But on the same road going westward into phoenix at the same time, people actually have room to pull over. And if we get caught on a road with a median that goes all the way up to the intersection and we don't hop into the opposing lane before the median starts, people literally have nowhere to go and we just added 2 minutes to response. Of course, at night on certain roads, you can simply go that much faster with your lights on, like south on Power Road towards Gateway Airport in Mesa, because it's long and straight and slightly bowled so with your lights on people can see you coming from four miles away. On other roads (like Thomas or Indian School), turning your lights on is almost an immediate accident button at certain times of the day. And while there's no state law limiting the speed of emergency response, every ambulance company limits it to 10 over the posted speed, and with AMR if they ever get above 70 at any point during the day they have to fill out an incident form explaining why they did so. Yes, even if they're going to Tucson and the limit is 75.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 01:32
|
|
|
Geirskogul posted:So, if you're in the Phoenix area and wondering why all of the ambulances and fire apparatuses, strobes on or not, take all corners really slowly, take 1/4 mile to stop at red lights and another 1/4 mile to get up to speed, and in general drive like geriatrics that still understand what a turn signal is, it's because we've figured out that statistically better outcomes for the patient come from safer, if slower, driving to the call, and a smoother ride to the hospital. In most calls it doesn't matter how fast we get to them (within reason), but instead how smoothly and bumpless we can transport them and the medic caring for them in the back. Don't be hatin' because we're slow - the truth is all ambulances are slow, but you expect them to be fast, and we only turn the lights on because it's what the taxpayers expect. Interesting. I guess this philosophy is more widespread than just Phoenix - it was one of the first odd things I noticed when I moved to Houston. Traffic on the freeways would be cruising at 75+ blowing by an ambulance running code in the passing lane at 65. For the fist few years it felt really wrong to pass an emergency vehicle, but if they're literally driving slower than grandma in her caddy, 
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 03:51
|
|
|
nitrogen posted:Y'all ever get "that freaky feeling" while watching traffic? You tend to develop a sixth sense about other drivers after having driven for a long time. I find I can pick out drivers who are about to do something stupid with surprising accuracy these days. Obviously not something you can rely on, but it's cool how your brain can track all those common little patterns shared by bad drivers (and even by particular types of bad drivers), even if you don't consciously notice them, and let you know to keep an eye on a particular driver a bit more carefully. It's definitely saved me some trouble once or twice over the years.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 03:58
|
|
|
Tonight I was at one of the very few intersections near me where it's legal to left turn on red (where two one-ways intersect) and the light on the cross street turned red, cross traffic was stopped, but something made me sit still for a few seconds for the green. The car that had come to a stop at the red decided a few seconds after to just gun it and run it. Could have been directly into me if I had gone right away.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 04:07
|
|
|
Geirskogul posted:I'm going to post the description of the video, because it is very good and a reminder of why, even in cases like this, neither party is 100% at fault like you would think: This sounds IMHO like convoluted insurance bullshit designed to hold both parties at fault so they can raise rates on both even if one isn't to blame. I don't give two shits what the insurance or anyone else claimed, there's a gigantic, flashy truck blaring its horns and an idiot either misjudged distance or just wasn't paying attention and got creamed for being stupid.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 04:45
|
|
|
nitrogen posted:Y'all ever get "that freaky feeling" while watching traffic? Happened to me earlier and probably saved me from getting into an accident. Funny you should say something. Leaving work this evening, I was passing by a long string of stopped cars in the oncoming lane, all waiting for the traffic light ahead. I noticed there was a considerable gap between two of the cars in the line I was approaching, and took my foot off the gas and put it over the brake. In a split second I was on the ABS to avoid T-boning the idiot popping between those cars, pulling a blind left turn into my lane. If I had waited to see him to react and hit the brakes, I would have wrecked into him for sure. And of course, I had my phone charging at the time so the dash cam wasn't plugged in. NoWake fucked around with this message at 04:48 on Sep 1, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 04:45
|
|
|
some fucker in a lovely Pontiac nearly t-boned me when he gunned it from the suicide lane this afternoon. There was a big pickup turning opposite him, so he was sitting there basically unable to see oncoming traffic past the truck and just loving decided "welp, going now!". I heard his engine and the sound of of gravel scraping under his tires when he hit the gas just as I started to go past the pickup... he braked just in time and swung out behind me, then gave some half-assed handwave at the stoplight like he hadn't just about wrecked my truck.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 05:00
|
|
|
nitrogen posted:Y'all ever get "that freaky feeling" while watching traffic? Happened to me earlier and probably saved me from getting into an accident. I get this a hell of a lot in Belgium. Was driving home last friday in the evening after work, on a two-lane road, coming up on a traffic light at an T-intersection(which meant a left turn lane also got added to the road). I was driving in the right lane and spotted a driver in a BMW speeding behind me(speed limit is 70kmh, this guy was going about 90-100kmh), pulling to the left lane and cutting off a car in that lane, then getting in the left turn lane at the light. Regular lights already red but the turn lane light was green, going to yellow at the moment the BMW passed me. He blows through the yellow(which goes red less than a second later) and goes straight back into the regular straight road. There's no cameras at this intersection, so I guess making an illegal move in a turn lane is somehow less bad than blowing straight through a stale red? If there was any police nearby they'd have pulled him over either way, but good luck finding actual traffic cops in this area. At this same intersection I've also seen drivers actively passing the traffic light on the right side across a bike lane just to not be going through the red though. Whatever makes you feel better I guess.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 08:15
|
|
|
Ozz81 posted:I don't give two shits what the insurance or anyone else claimed, there's a gigantic, flashy truck blaring its horns and an idiot either misjudged distance or just wasn't paying attention and got creamed for being stupid. You have eloquently described my very thoughts.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 08:44
|
|
|
Ozz81 posted:This sounds IMHO like convoluted insurance bullshit designed to hold both parties at fault so they can raise rates on both even if one isn't to blame. I don't give two shits what the insurance or anyone else claimed, there's a gigantic, flashy truck blaring its horns and an idiot either misjudged distance or just wasn't paying attention and got creamed for being stupid. You didn't read past the first sentence of my post, did you? Because I think what you gathered from it is the opposite of what I typed. Here, I'll make it easier for you: tl;dr the driver in this case was at fault, but there are things that fire and ambulance companies are learning that changes the way they drive and that if the new things we have learned were applied in this instance (would be difficult as the engineer has been doing this for 25 years old dogs new tricks etc) the accident probably wouldn't have happened. But the person who drove in front of the truck was still stupid and at fault (I said it a second time so you might remember it).
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 10:36
|
|
|
WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU DRIVE WITH YOUR BRAKE LIGHTS ON THE WHOLE TIME? They didn't flicker once, and it wasn't the tails, unless the 3rd brake light on a early 2000s model Hyundai is brighter then the eye of sauron, and on all the time. I tolerated it for about 6 blocks and was like NOPE after watching this mobile disaster weaving in and out of traffic.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 12:22
|
|
|
Just had a car carrier turn left on a red and cut off 3 lanes of traffic going about 50. Scared the poo poo out of me, and that was before the guy behind me wasn't paying attention and had to swerve into the turn lane to avoid hitting me.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 14:31
|
|
|
SneakyFrog posted:WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU DRIVE WITH YOUR BRAKE LIGHTS ON THE WHOLE TIME? Probably a two-footed driver resting their left foot on the brake. Anytime I see suspicious braking, like cruising with the brake lights on, or accelerating with them on, I give them a little more space. I don't trust anyone who's learned to drive with two feet (exception: race car drivers actually racing on a track).
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 14:38
|
|
|
xergm posted:Probably a two-footed driver resting their left foot on the brake. I tried to do that when I was learning to drive, my dad smacked me in the back of the head and asked me if i thought I was an andretti or something and to do it right.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 14:47
|
|
|
My old car would stall if it was rolling when I stepped on the clutch or put it in neutral (ECU was loving up, reflash fixed it). One time I decided I would left foot brake so I could keep my right foot on the gas and prevent the stalling. My left foot just jabbed the pedal to the floor and I came to a dead stop, almost getting rear ended by the guy behind me. I decided never to try left foot braking again.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 14:53
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 26, 2024 20:55 |
|
|
PCOS Bill posted:Tonight I was at one of the very few intersections near me where it's legal to left turn on red (where two one-ways intersect) and the light on the cross street turned red, cross traffic was stopped, but something made me sit still for a few seconds for the green. The car that had come to a stop at the red decided a few seconds after to just gun it and run it. I live in a country where there's no legal right/left turns on red, and to me it always sounds more trouble than it's worth.
|
|
#
?
Sep 1, 2015 15:02
|
|
