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Are you a This poll is closed. |
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| homeowner |
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39 | 22.41% |
| renter |
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69 | 39.66% |
| stupid peace of poo poo |
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66 | 37.93% |
| Total: | 174 votes | ||
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Yes, because it's obviously easier to have two referendums than just having "current flag" as an option on the initial one.
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Sep 1, 2015 07:33
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it makes sense tbh
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Sep 1, 2015 07:48
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Nah
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Sep 1, 2015 07:51
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The most sensible method would be an initial referendum that asks if we want a new flag, if that's a yes then a second referendum with the current flag as an option for those who change their minds. That option either costs the same or less than the current version.
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Sep 1, 2015 08:37
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At that point since you have a fifth "whoops don't change the flag" option why not just eliminate the first referendum entirely as a vote for the current flag is a de facto don't change, and a vote for any other flag is a de facto do change.
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Sep 1, 2015 08:40
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That would be an improvement too. It's not a hard thing to improve on really.
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Sep 1, 2015 08:43
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If the first referendum is "new flag y/n?": — if Y, you're locked into getting a new flag without knowing which of the four it's actually going to be. — if N, all those reoadtrips etc. are an even bigger waste of money (would have been marginally better if the referendum was held before any of that tho) A single referendum like Infotainment's talking about would have been better, since it would have let people e.g. rank Lockwood's trash red & blue thing 1, then the current one 2, etc.
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Sep 1, 2015 08:52
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The way they're doing it makes sense because you can't ask people to vote for a flag change when they aren't sure what the new one will look like, so they have to decide on the potential new flag before they ask people if it should change. Having the current flag as one among four possible alternatives is dumb because then the change votes would all be split while the keep votes would be concentrated on one. Unless they did some kind of STV system I guess...
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Sep 1, 2015 08:59
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fong posted:The way they're doing it makes sense because you can't ask people to vote for a flag change when they aren't sure what the new one will look like, so they have to decide on the potential new flag before they ask people if it should change. I understand it's using instant runoff voting, yeah
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Sep 1, 2015 09:03
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I think it's a foregone conclusion anyway, didn't the last lot of polls show something like 60% wanting to keep the flag?
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Sep 1, 2015 09:06
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That's why they're narrowing it down to 1 first I think, so that it can be more of a horserace.
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Sep 1, 2015 09:11
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Every single one of those final options is disgusting, including our old one. Seriously, what is the point in changing the flag when they want to keep the same colours and the same bloody stars? The green koru was lovely and if they'd had that instead of the black one I would vote for it and be proud of it. What bugs me the most about this whole business is that our flag really does need to be changed. It's colonial and ugly. But this flag change can only go two ways: either people vote to keep the old flag and we'll be stuck with it because nobody else will want to attempt changing it again after this mess or we'll get one of those four ugly options and nobody will want to attempt to change it again for a while because of this mess.
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Sep 1, 2015 10:52
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Trapped in Waikato Hospital, send wifi to the patient rooms
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Sep 1, 2015 10:54
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its all mobile data from here on out sorry son
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Sep 1, 2015 10:55
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ill probably be voting for the black and white hypnoflag
voiceless anal fricative fucked around with this message at 11:07 on Sep 1, 2015 |
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Sep 1, 2015 10:59
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fong posted:ill probably be voting for the black and white hypnoflag If I am in the country I will probably vote for that too. But it really rubs me the wrong way how obvious it is that they only added it so people wouldn't vote for it. They could have at least included some nice and varied options so that it really is a choice. I don't know what I was expecting though, people have been saying from the beginning that they were always steering it towards the red, blue and white fern. edit: sorry for the angry rambling, I'm in my early twenties so all this "everything is futile" feeling is still relatively new to me.
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Sep 1, 2015 11:16
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fong posted:ill probably be voting for the black and white hypnoflag I'll probably not be voting because why would I give a gently caress about what logo is on a piece of cloth? The only way to win is to not play.
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Sep 1, 2015 11:17
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ledge posted:I'll probably not be voting because why would I give a gently caress about what logo is on a piece of cloth? You should give a gently caress because you'll be seeing it a bunch associated with your country? Like I'm not super passionate about it or anything, but its not nothing.
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Sep 1, 2015 11:24
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ledge posted:I'll probably not be voting because why would I give a gently caress about what logo is on a piece of cloth? Join me in writing "gently caress No" on the ballot.
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Sep 1, 2015 11:38
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Sep 1, 2015 12:11
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Did it not occur to anyone on the design team that a chunk of the white Koru one is going to be invisible against a white background like say, a piece of paper? [e]oh god the white/black fern one too. Fucks sake they are even worse than I feared (we all knew that awful red/blue stars/fern one was going to be the finalist). Saros fucked around with this message at 12:22 on Sep 1, 2015 |
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Sep 1, 2015 12:20
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Saros posted:Did it not occur to anyone on the design team that a chunk of the white Koru one is going to be invisible against a white background like say, a piece of paper? I always thought the silver fern was going to be a finalist, at least that's one that people already recognise and identify with in some way.
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Sep 1, 2015 12:26
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Wipe with pride
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Sep 1, 2015 12:26
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Saros posted:Did it not occur to anyone on the design team that a chunk of the white Koru one is going to be invisible against a white background like say, a piece of paper? There are lots of flags with white on them. Like, you know, Finland, Scotland, USA...
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Sep 1, 2015 12:37
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Laverna posted:edit: sorry for the angry rambling, I'm in my early twenties so all this "everything is futile" feeling is still relatively new to me. I suggest developing a substance abuse habit of some sort because it's only downhill from here sonny. Reading this thread is among the top three most depressing activities I do on any given day.
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Sep 1, 2015 19:40
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spanky the dolphin posted:I had a green koru in the top 40. It got disqualified due to a copyright claim last week though. The current koru is poorly drawn and really unbalanced. Can you elaborate on this? I thought he'd given the flag to the people of NZ to use as a flag - was it because you removed the black bar on the left and changed it so it wasn't considered his flag anymore? Also, I would have thought the first referendum question could have been "Is it even worth us looking at changing the flag" which wouldn't have carried any commitment to actually change it in the event we got front-runners like the current set.
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Sep 1, 2015 19:58
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mirthdefect posted:Can you elaborate on this? I thought he'd given the flag to the people of NZ to use as a flag - was it because you removed the black bar on the left and changed it so it wasn't considered his flag anymore? The problem with that is that you could end up with a flag that less than 50% of voters want if your second referendum is going to be a run-off between the four alternatives.
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Sep 1, 2015 20:09
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Butt Wizard posted:The problem with that is that you could end up with a flag that less than 50% of voters want if your second referendum is going to be a run-off between the four alternatives. You're almost guaranteed to, since if change is voted for it's likely to be by a very small margin. Unless the voters can almost unanimously agree on a new design in referendum 2, 'old flag' is still going to have more popular support than the selected new option. On the other hand if you put them all in one referendum with 5 choices, old flag will win by a mile because the 'change' votes will be split between the new designs. The two part way seems to be designed to identify people who want a new flag, but don't care what it is, which is really dumb.
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Sep 1, 2015 21:22
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Using unaltered public submissions is like an architect giving a builder a concept drawing and telling him to build it. Of course the result will be terrible. Also, privatising the care of problem children is a bad idea IMO.
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Sep 1, 2015 22:11
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mirthdefect posted:Can you elaborate on this? I thought he'd given the flag to the people of NZ to use as a flag - was it because you removed the black bar on the left and changed it so it wasn't considered his flag anymore? I thought the same thing. I think it comes down to not asking the Hundertwasser Foundation prior to entering it. Although I will never know at this stage, I don't think they would have granted permission to begin with. They're protective over the designs and don't like alterations. I didn't actually know about the Foundation and asked the Flag Committee to look into the copyright issues when I was called about being in the long list months ago. I was pretty surprised about it being pulled so late in the process - a week ago. I contacted the head of the Foundation in Vienna and he said 'You know what is the opposite of good? It is good intention. Good intention has always to be excused, explained, and justified as you do.' He then compared my use of the flag design to him stealing my tv so others can watch it. I should have asked first. Or just made an entirely new design.
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Sep 1, 2015 22:27
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Jaguars! posted:Using unaltered public submissions is like an architect giving a builder a concept drawing and telling him to build it. Of course the result will be terrible. Except in this case we also had a bunch of people who have no idea how structural design works determining which of a thousand architectural concept drawings (only a few of which are actually from architects) is the "best one," and then the NZ public has to vote on which one is the "best one," and at no point was anyone actually trained in construction brought in on this.
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Sep 1, 2015 22:31
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Somfin posted:Except in this case we also had a bunch of people who have no idea how structural design works determining which of a thousand architectural concept drawings (only a few of which are actually from architects) is the "best one," and then the NZ public has to vote on which one is the "best one," and at no point was anyone actually trained in construction brought in on this. Which is why we end up with examples that would look alright on an advertisement but entirely out of place as a country's flag. What was Canada's process? They went through the same thing, right? Except they ended up with a good flag. (Same thing as in changing the flag, I'm sure they didn't have a John Key trying to make it all about him and rigging the results)
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Sep 2, 2015 10:50
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The fern has been a distinctive symbol of New Zealand for the past 100 years. Strong and simple, it represents our uniqueness as Aotearoa New Zealand and the black and white colours show our ‘yin and yang’, with the softly curved spine of the frond binding us all together as a young, independent and proud nation. Credit for the fern goes to The New Zealand Way Limited. The dominant feature of this flag is a white fern frond that sweeps up diagonally from the bottom left corner to the right of the top centre. The left side of the fern is sitting on a red background. To the right of the fern there are four stars in the formation of the Southern Cross constellation, sitting on a blue background. Each star is red with a white border, and has five points. The right half of this flag is black. At the halfway point of the flag the black forms a koru on a white background. The black koru spirals down and to the left from the top of the flag. The dominant feature of this flag is a white fern frond that sweeps up diagonally from the bottom left corner to the right of the top centre. The left side of the fern is sitting on a black background. To the right of the fern there are four stars in the formation of the Southern Cross constellation, sitting on a blue background. Each star is red with a white border, and has five points. 
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Sep 2, 2015 11:05
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spanky the dolphin posted:I thought the same thing. I think it comes down to not asking the Hundertwasser Foundation prior to entering it. Although I will never know at this stage, I don't think they would have granted permission to begin with. They're protective over the designs and don't like alterations. That seems so weird, I always thought that Hundertwasser designed the flag as a gift for New Zealand and considered this place his home. Surely he would have supported New Zealanders choosing even a slightly altered version of his flag instead of forcing them to go with one of these four options. Is this another one of these foundations that goes against what the original person would have believed?
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Sep 2, 2015 11:33
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I'm not voting in either referendum because I don't care what the flag looks like
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Sep 2, 2015 11:56
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Yeah but don't you want to see JK's dream fail?
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Sep 2, 2015 12:24
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echinopsis posted:Yeah but don't you want to see JK's dream fail? This is literally the only reason I'm gonna vote in the second one
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Sep 2, 2015 12:38
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it would be cool if the first referendum's turnout was crazy low, but you just know we're gonna get bombarded with ads. it's really gross that the whole submission, panel, etc. process was just a farce. the red & blue had been around for ages, Farrar featured it as  sent in by a reader, Key "signed off on" (chose) the final four.this is a proudly mediocre country 
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Sep 2, 2015 12:50
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Laverna posted:That seems so weird, I always thought that Hundertwasser designed the flag as a gift for New Zealand and considered this place his home. Surely he would have supported New Zealanders choosing even a slightly altered version of his flag instead of forcing them to go with one of these four options. I think they don't want to get involved with the process at all. They don't trust it. Can't really blame them there. "...the choice has been made long ago and the whole activity of competition kind for a NZ flag designs is an action of alibi by the decision making politicians. Last but not least, Hundertwasser has offered the Koru Flag design to NZ accompanied with a long manifesto (1983) explaining the purpose and the message it carries, but was rejected then by the officials and will be at the end rejected now as well." They claim they weren't reached about my design. Could have been a mix up with who was contacted. It was difficult finding out what the official channels were online for me, at least.
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Sep 2, 2015 12:53
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spanky the dolphin posted:I think they don't want to get involved with the process at all. They don't trust it. Can't really blame them there. I wish it was considered seriously this time. Yours was really nice but even the original would have been worlds better than what's on offer. I've always been a fan of it.
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Sep 2, 2015 13:03
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