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Prince John posted:This justifies the Taxpayer's Alliance raising the issue though. Is it moral for local councils to accrue hordes of artwork that they know they don't have sufficient display space for? Should it even be in the function of a local council to have an art collection? The article points out that a large fraction of this art was donated to the government explicitly to be shown to the public, often in the form of being bequeathed in wills. It's not super ethical to sell a or rent out piece of art that is only in public hands so it can be enjoyed by the public.
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Sep 4, 2015 19:20
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CoolCab posted:The article points out that a large fraction of this art was donated to the government explicitly to be shown to the public, often in the form of being bequeathed in wills. It's not super ethical to sell a or rent out piece of art that is only in public hands so it can be enjoyed by the public. Yeah in this case you're kind of stuck with it. Unless you've got somewhere to display it, and you don't, you can't really do much other than bung it in a shed. I mean unless you want to go full utilitarianism and ignore the wishes of the person donating it but maybe people wouldn't donate if they thought you were going to do that. Also a lot of people don't like utilitarian ethics.
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Sep 4, 2015 19:26
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In my school a capitalist teacher was teaching a college class and he told the class that he was going to prove that there is no Socialism. He said, "Socialism, if you are real, then I want you to elect an actual leftist leader. I'll give you 15 minutes!" Ten minutes went by. He kept taunting Socialism, saying, "Here I am, Socialism. I'm still waiting." He got down to the last couple of minutes and Corbyn just returned from voting against the party leadership 500 times, walked up to the teacher, hit him full force in the face, and sent him flying from his platform. The teacher struggled up, obviously shaken and yelled, "What's the matter with you? Why did you do that?" Corbyn replied, "Meow, it's time for revenge."
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Sep 4, 2015 19:26
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I'm not sure Jeremy Corybn would punch anyone, he'd probably invite them to a reasonable discussion in a friendly atmosphere to talk about their problems.
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Sep 4, 2015 19:29
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This was the early years. At the moment we're in "Corbyn: the next generation". The original series was cancelled in the 90's.
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Sep 4, 2015 19:31
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CoolCab posted:The article points out that a large fraction of this art was donated to the government explicitly to be shown to the public, often in the form of being bequeathed in wills. It's not super ethical to sell a or rent out piece of art that is only in public hands so it can be enjoyed by the public. I was more talking about selling the art that they've purchased privately. I was assuming that renting to other museums would satisfy the conditions of the bequest to get them in front of the public, but maybe that's playing a bit fast and loose with the rules. Either way, it sounds like they've more than enough beqeathed art to fill their museums which makes it difficult to justify splurging on all the extra art.
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Sep 4, 2015 19:31
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ShredsYouSay posted:It's like when they renamed Mr Dog Comprehensive to the Cesar Free School Bloody hell, you gently caress one goat... Sapozhnik fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 19:32
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It's possible a lot of the donated stuff might be poo poo, or falling to pieces. I base this on my experience of working in a charity shop. "it's good stuff that" means it's a sack full of soiled underwear with an F and F top in the bottom which is more bobble than fabric.
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Sep 4, 2015 19:48
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Prince John posted:I was more talking about selling the art that they've purchased privately. I was assuming that renting to other museums would satisfy the conditions of the bequest to get them in front of the public, but maybe that's playing a bit fast and loose with the rules. How do we know there was 'splurging'? How much of the total billions comes from purchased art rather than donations? How much of the 'value' is through appreciation since purchase? How much is the stored art worth? Why is it currently being stored, is it actually necessary e.g. to protect valuable pieces until they can be restored? How many of those thousands of pieces are actually small parts of collections, like photographs, jewellery, spoons etc? The whole thing is pretty nuanced and yeah, there might be something to it. But until someone actually puts out some facts about the situation, it's safer to go with the usual perspective which is that the Taxpayers Alliance is poo poo, doesn't want government spending ARE TAX on places to display this stuff, and basically just wants it selling off so they can snap it up at a bargain, or just have the revenue offset their tax bills. Literally selling off the silver
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Sep 4, 2015 20:05
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I could probably say a bit about art bequests to public ownership - particularly as a method of avoiding tax. I see this practice throughout the sector I work in. I personally know of some exceptionally beautiful and valuable art including portraits by Gainsborough, Millais, Joshua Reynolds, Van Dyck etc that is theoretically publicly owned but is on permanent loan to private companies to whom you're going to have to pay usual touristy entry fees if you want to view them. I don't necessarily object to being charged for seeing great works of art, but when that art is owned by the people while the payment disappears into private profits and tax is being avoided via the entire scheme? That does bother me. e: the usual justification for schemes like this is that the art would otherwise have to be sold, and the notorious poverty of our publicly funded museums and galleries is simply unable to compete with rich Americans (and, increasingly, asian) art collectors. So there is another side of the story. Like many things, it's not a good system, but it may not be quite the worst system. communism bitch fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 20:10
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What if we let those people buy the art (at knockdown prices - we're flooding the market here!) and then loan it back to local government? Sounds like a win win to me!
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Sep 4, 2015 20:13
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Man goes to the doctor. He says "doctor, im depressed, there is no hope for the working class. Conservatives hound us at every turn and people vote against their own interests." Doctor says " I have just the thing, there is a man, Jeremy Corbyn, most socialist fellow around and I have extra ticket to his speech, after that you will no longer be depressed." "But doctor", the man says "I am Jeremy Corbyn." Funny joke, everybody laughs.
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Sep 4, 2015 20:17
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Oberleutnant posted:I could probably say a bit about art bequests to public ownership - particularly as a method of avoiding tax. I see this practice throughout the sector I work in. The thing is that the owner of some huge mansion or what have you is always going to prefer settling a tax bill with a work of art than actually having to find x million pounds of liquid cash so the private sale threat is a slight bluff. Rather than the current situation where they avoid tax, while not actually giving up anything of value, we should change the rules to play on this inbuilt preference, or even incentivise it, so that we no longer need to do the permanent loan thing back to them. For example, let the market value of the painting be grossed up when it comes to settling a tax bill - e.g. the painting settles tax of 1.25 or 1.5 times its value in cash if it's considered to have cultural value to the nation. The aristocrat is incentivised to preferentially donate culturally valuable gifts to the nation. He has to 'sell' fewer pieces of art than he would need to do if he went through the private sector. The taxpayer still acquires the asset, but now has a chance of seeing it (our previous discussion notwithstanding!) because it doesn't end up behind closed doors again. It keeps artwork within our borders and, more importantly, it also stops private companies from continuing to make profits from rent-free state-owned assets thanks to a privileged arrangement. Edit: vv Naturally. You can't win 'em all! Although there's a distinction to be made over whether "the state" should hold art for investment etc. and whether local councils should. Prince John fucked around with this message at 20:39 on Sep 4, 2015 |
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Sep 4, 2015 20:29
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And then the Taxpayers Alliance writes another press release about how there's even more art in storage and how it should be sold off (at a loss if it was bought at 1.5x market value)
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Sep 4, 2015 20:34
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Most art isn't sold frequently enough or similar enough to works which are sold to have anything close to an agreed market price though. Valuations are estimates which would vary significantly based on whether it's done by the owner or the government and attempts to value it at last price used becomes pointless if it was purchased a few decades ago.
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Sep 4, 2015 20:43
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quote:Valuations are estimates which would vary significantly based on whether it's done by the owner or the government and attempts to value it at last price used becomes pointless if it was purchased a few decades ago.
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Sep 4, 2015 20:51
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Oberleutnant posted:I can't speak for the entire industry of art sales, but in my experience an independent auction house makes their own valuation as mutually agreed upon by the government and the donor - I know for a fact that Sotheby's does this. I don't know if their valuations will generally stand in the open market, but if they're not realistic it makes one wonder what the point of commissioning them to perform the valuation is to begin with. They might be realistic, but also could vary by tens of thousands of pounds which I imagine both sides would be interested in having swung in their favour as there wouldn't be an auction to act as a proving ground.
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Sep 4, 2015 20:55
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V. Illych L. posted:aren't you a literal card-carrying member of the Communist Party of Britain? The CPB isn't very active around here so I haven't been active in politics recently. If Corbyn wins I might start up again (although I doubt I'd get on the local exec within six months, like I did down there!) The last question today was from someone who started their question with "I didn't vote Labour in the last election" and all I could think was "Here comes the purge"
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Sep 4, 2015 22:01
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Is the CPB the one that does parades with stalin's mug on a bedsheet?
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Sep 4, 2015 22:51
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OwlFancier posted:Is the CPB the one that does parades with stalin's mug on a bedsheet? The CPB is the relatively unembarrassing one that's involved in the Morning Star.
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Sep 4, 2015 23:04
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Ah. I wish there was somewhere round here that sold the morning star because the front page I saw looked pretty funny.
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Sep 4, 2015 23:09
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OwlFancier posted:Is the CPB the one that does parades with stalin's mug on a bedsheet? that's the CPGB-ML
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Sep 4, 2015 23:35
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Prince John posted:This justifies the Taxpayer's Alliance raising the issue though. Is it moral for local councils to accrue hordes of artwork that they know they don't have sufficient display space for? Should it even be in the function of a local council to have an art collection? Most of the art will be quite low value, importance and unheard of its just they have a very large volume of it
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Sep 5, 2015 00:36
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Seen to remember Mark Thomas doing something about art and tax years ago but maybe it's not the same thing Edit: yeah this http://youtu.be/0D-CLCtJXOE
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Sep 5, 2015 09:46
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I'm started to wish my parents didn't retire. They have nothing to do so all they do is watch the news all day, form poo poo opinions and then email them to me all loving day long, while I'm busy trying to work a job and have a life I can barely delete their crap fast enough If your parents haven't retired yet heed this warning
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Sep 5, 2015 11:52
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KKKlean Energy posted:I'm started to wish my parents didn't retire. They have nothing to do so all they do is watch the news all day, form poo poo opinions and then email them to me all loving day long, while I'm busy trying to work a job and have a life   Well, just my dad, my mum is neither retired nor a possessor of lovely opinions.
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Sep 5, 2015 12:02
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But parents are among the few people to whom you should be comfortable saying "Your opinions are poo poo and wrong and here is why."
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Sep 5, 2015 12:30
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freebooter posted:But parents are among the few people to whom you should be comfortable saying "Your opinions are poo poo and wrong and here is why." Sometimes people's views are so entrenched it doesn't matter what facts or evidence you provide, you will never convince them ever.
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Sep 5, 2015 12:34
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KKKlean Energy posted:I'm started to wish my parents didn't retire. They have nothing to do so all they do is watch the news all day, form poo poo opinions and then email them to me all loving day long, while I'm busy trying to work a job and have a life I can't claim any credit for that, but maybe buy them some good books or documentaries for Christmas if they consider themselves current affairs experts. Acaila posted:I'll confess that PISA is the only metric I know, while nobody thinks it's perfect. What's the TIMMS one? There's quite a few people claiming that PISA is fine on its own but applied terribly, for instance in quite a few years the UK's results were statistically invalid because too few schools took part, or that it becomes way too political in a lot of places.
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Sep 5, 2015 12:59
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Hi UKMT! I know bookchat was in the last thread but I was wondering if any of those books recommended are good for someone who is already heavily invested in the Capitalism Bad camp but has no understanding of economics to save their life. I was thinking of starting with Piketty but I thought i'd get your opinion first and you guys seem to understand that topic quite well.
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Sep 5, 2015 13:05
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Ludicro posted:Sometimes people's views are so entrenched it doesn't matter what facts or evidence you provide, you will never convince them ever. True, but it's important to try, because even if you don't change their minds you may remind them that there are other opinions out there. Racism is a good example - plenty of our parents would have been raised in a generation when garden variety racism was par for the course, and they'll never really change that way of thinking. But if their kids regularly remind them that it's not OK to say that sort of poo poo anymore, they may learn to hold their tongue in polite company, which goes some way to removing that influence from the next generation of people. Every little helps, etc. Just remember that a lot of people get their news and their opinion 100% from the Daily Mail and their likeminded mates down at the pub, and anything you can do to broaden their input can't hurt.
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Sep 5, 2015 13:10
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Miftan posted:Hi UKMT! I know bookchat was in the last thread but I was wondering if any of those books recommended are good for someone who is already heavily invested in the Capitalism Bad camp but has no understanding of economics to save their life. I was thinking of starting with Piketty but I thought i'd get your opinion first and you guys seem to understand that topic quite well.
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Sep 5, 2015 13:20
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The Conquest Of Bread  On artchat: how much of that was in hospitals and hospices run by the state? That seems a valid use for art that might not be counted under "for public display"
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Sep 5, 2015 13:41
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Miftan posted:Hi UKMT! I know bookchat was in the last thread but I was wondering if any of those books recommended are good for someone who is already heavily invested in the Capitalism Bad camp but has no understanding of economics to save their life. I was thinking of starting with Piketty but I thought i'd get your opinion first and you guys seem to understand that topic quite well. Stiglitz is easy to read though more focused on reforming capitalism than replacing it
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Sep 5, 2015 13:46
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Oh gently caress, Jezza was in Chelmsford yesterday, and I had no idea. Pork pie, did you know or go?
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Sep 5, 2015 14:58
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KKKlean Energy posted:I'm started to wish my parents didn't retire. They have nothing to do so all they do is watch the news all day, form poo poo opinions and then email them to me all loving day long, while I'm busy trying to work a job and have a life You can set up an email filter to automatically bin anything they send you, then set up another one to re-inbox anything that includes the line "your dad's dead" or similar.
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Sep 5, 2015 15:33
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OwlFancier posted:You can set up an email filter to automatically bin anything they send you, then set up another one to re-inbox anything that includes the line "your dad's dead" or similar. This sounds like advice from someone who has done this.
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Sep 5, 2015 15:34
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freebooter posted:True, but it's important to try, because even if you don't change their minds you may remind them that there are other opinions out there. Racism is a good example - plenty of our parents would have been raised in a generation when garden variety racism was par for the course, and they'll never really change that way of thinking. But if their kids regularly remind them that it's not OK to say that sort of poo poo anymore, they may learn to hold their tongue in polite company, which goes some way to removing that influence from the next generation of people. Every little helps, etc. I can see what you are saying, I was referring more to the sorts of people who even when presented with evidence that completely contradicts what they believe to be facts will simply reject it, decrying it as rubbish . In other news: The BBC posted:Nearly a million homeowners have no way of paying off their mortgages because they opted for interest-only loans, according to Citizens Advice. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34144333 Oops.
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Sep 5, 2015 15:49
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In shocking news, it turns out that many people are bad at managing their personal finances and will use credit irresponsibly if given the opportunity to do so.
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Sep 5, 2015 15:58
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OwlFancier posted:You can set up an email filter to automatically bin anything they send you, then set up another one to re-inbox anything that includes the line "your dad's dead" or similar. "your dad's dead sick of these immigrants"
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Sep 5, 2015 15:59
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