|
Hy_C posted:nah it has more to do with not being able to hit dps checks on fights and having the group wipe multiple times because of it. If everyone pulled their own weight there would be no issue. If it's so close in a 20 or 40 person raid where one person not performing well causes a wipe, to be blunt, gently caress that right in the rear end. e: and im not just saying that because im the 1 person
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 01:13
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 08:41 |
|
Flesh Forge posted:If it's so close in a 20 or 40 person raid where one person not performing well causes a wipe, to be blunt, gently caress that right in the rear end. It's 8 man
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 01:15
|
|
|
Even that's a bit on the border of gently caress that. On the one hand the company's language is "oh gosh we want to make sure people don't feel excluded because of metrics" but on the other hand it's pretty clearly balanced to exclude people based on metrics.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 01:32
|
|
|
I got a Wildstar beta key and installed the PTR client because apparently I hate myself. I forgot just how... janky the whole interface is. Why did I buy this game on launch?
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 01:34
|
|
|
was it this
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 01:38
|
|
Flesh Forge posted:Even that's a bit on the border of gently caress that. On the one hand the company's language is "oh gosh we want to make sure people don't feel excluded because of metrics" but on the other hand it's pretty clearly balanced to exclude people based on metrics. The thing is, dps checks in ffxiv are extremely loose until you get into the absolute highest end of raiding content, at which point you are definitely in voice coms. It really is a case where having metrics available to people is nothing but problematic.
|
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 02:40
|
|
|
Flesh Forge posted:If it's so close in a 20 or 40 person raid where one person not performing well causes a wipe, to be blunt, gently caress that right in the rear end. Let's say you have a boss that requires everyone to be playing at 66% of their potential to beat within the time limit, which isn't ridiculous by any means - 66% is "I have a good understanding of my class and the appropriate type of gear", not bleeding edge. If everyone is playing at the baseline level, the boss dies without much of a fuss, which is good! Then you get a couple of people who are playing the class at 33% of its potential. They're either ill-equipped, or don't understand how their class works, or (in the worst case), they may not even care about these things ("It's my $15, i'll play how I want to!). All of a sudden, the rest of your raid isn't good enough to beat the enrage timer - there are adds exploding when they're at 10% health, or the boss goes immune when he's supposed to die. Without meters, it's very hard to form anything more than a basic opinion off of threat generation (which is part of FFXIV's default UI). The unfortunate reality of MMOs is that content can't be for everyone. If you try to cater to the bottom end of players, you'll only create content that isn't interesting in any way to the majority of your player base. Getting from 100% to 66% is mostly just loosening DPS and mechanical requirements; getting from 66% to 33% requires you to all but remove them. At some point, you have to decide where that line is, and try to teach new players how to reach it. Discouraging parsing is a good way to shield them harassment while they learn, but it's also an important tool for getting you there if you're willing. Even if SE never becomes okay with parsers, they need to give new players some sort of feedback tool for how well they're performing. e: LITERALLY MY FETISH has it - everything outside of the two hardest encounters in the current patch is can be done in a pickup group by decent players. If you can't meet the criteria for it, you drastically reduce your group's chance of completing it even if they're competent by themselves, and not being able to tell you why is a problem. Niton fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Sep 7, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 02:42
|
|
|
Flesh Forge posted:Even that's a bit on the border of gently caress that. On the one hand the company's language is "oh gosh we want to make sure people don't feel excluded because of metrics" but on the other hand it's pretty clearly balanced to exclude people based on metrics. Generally speaking, it's not usually even close. Dungeons are tuned for (# of DPS slots in party * DPS for expected gear level of layers * 0.80 lol ratio). Like, assuming 0 DPS for the tanks and healers, just the DPSes. That 80% tends to mean that if you're failing it's because somebody is either loving up the boss's mechanics, or their job's mechanics, on a fundamental and observable level. So you tell them not to do that, and then you coast right past the boss, generally speaking. There are a lot of things bad about FFXIV, but the dumb soft moderation policy makes the dungeon finder livable. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 02:54
|
|
|
Is everyone in the final fantasy thread talking about wildstar?
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 03:09
|
|
|
AOL era Neverwinter Nights, actually.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 03:16
|
|
|
Comrayn posted:Is everyone in the final fantasy thread talking about wildstar? It's all serious business in the FFXIV thread, they don't make jokes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 03:16
|
|
|
Flesh Forge posted:was it this Y'know, this trailer really should've scared me off. Niton posted:The unfortunate reality of MMOs is that content can't be for everyone. If you try to cater to the bottom end of players, you'll only create content that isn't interesting in any way to the majority of your player base. Getting from 100% to 66% is mostly just loosening DPS and mechanical requirements; getting from 66% to 33% requires you to all but remove them. At some point, you have to decide where that line is, and try to teach new players how to reach it. Discouraging parsing is a good way to shield them harassment while they learn, but it's also an important tool for getting you there if you're willing. Even if SE never becomes okay with parsers, they need to give new players some sort of feedback tool for how well they're performing. Some GW2 players aren't taking the addition of raids very well because it's one of the first times the game has really leaned into making content that isn't for everyone.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 03:33
|
|
|
Harrow posted:Some GW2 players aren't taking the addition of raids very well because it's one of the first times the game has really leaned into making content that isn't for everyone. Did GW2 ever add an inspect feature? I know part of GW2's PvE "issues" used to be that there was absolutely no way to check if another player was wearing the proper gear for an instance, leading to groups disbanding because they couldn't tell who the weak link was. While it mostly worked, I can't help but feel that's way too far over to the other side. This really has become the lovely MMO Design Megathread, hasn't it .
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 03:40
|
|
|
Niton posted:Did GW2 ever add an inspect feature? I know part of GW2's PvE "issues" used to be that there was absolutely no way to check if another player was wearing the proper gear for an instance, leading to groups disbanding because they couldn't tell who the weak link was. While it mostly worked, I can't help but feel that's way too far over to the other side. Nope, they never did. I doubt there are any plans to, either, which is a little bit a shame because sometimes I really want to know what armor skins or weapon skins someone is using. There's been a bit of backlash against the "elitist" people who kick people from their groups over gear or achievement points and such, and I think the etiquette now is just to be upfront about whether you're trying to form a "meta" party (everyone uses ideal builds and gear and knows what they're doing) or not. The dungeon serious business stuff really only matters if you're speedrunning and the community's starting to understand that better now. Raids could be interesting, in that ArenaNet is being pretty insistent about making sure control and support roles actually matter this time, but I'll believe that when I see it, honestly. I wonder if we should just have an actual MMO hellthread. Then again, if we did, nobody would ever post in the Wildstar thread again.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 04:15
|
|
|
Harrow posted:I wonder if we should just have an actual MMO hellthread. Then again, if we did, nobody would ever post in the Wildstar thread again. The ArcheAge thread would die off pretty quick too. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 04:36
|
|
|
Harrow posted:Raids could be interesting, in that ArenaNet is being pretty insistent about making sure control and support roles actually matter this time, but I'll believe that when I see it, honestly. The herald this weekend does make me a bit more optimistic since the class is more or less a classic bard style support...with a dragon cannon.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 04:46
|
|
|
Cyron posted:The herald this weekend does make me a bit more optimistic since the class is more or less a classic bard style support...with a dragon cannon. Herald was a lot of fun, yeah. I wish I liked more of the Revenant's weapon sets. I rolled with staff and hammer all weekend and had a good time, but I really don't like sword, and I have a tough time with the condition build required for mace/axe (as cool as those skills are). I liked teaming up with other Heralds to cover all the boons without murdering our Energy regeneration. During a couple of events I ran pulsing Protection the whole time because other Heralds were pulsing Fury and Might. Nothing like giving a whole 5-person group permanent 33% damage reduction.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 05:12
|
|
|
Harrow posted:Some GW2 players aren't taking the addition of raids very well because it's one of the first times the game has really leaned into making content that isn't for everyone. "Content that is not for everyone" is automatically a dumb idea in a market that is already very hard to carve a niche into. If you're putting major dev time into it then it loving well better attract as many people to your piece of poo poo game as possible. Case in point a little game called WILD STARS MAYBE YOUVE HEARD OF IT
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 08:47
|
|
|
So hosed up that Square Enix bought the Wildstar IP and added Chua to FFXIV
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 09:07
|
|
|
Flesh Forge posted:"Content that is not for everyone" is automatically a dumb idea in a market that is already very hard to carve a niche into. If you're putting major dev time into it then it loving well better attract as many people to your piece of poo poo game as possible. These two statements are mutually exclusive, though! The game played by the very bottom percentage of players is so fundamentally different from the game everyone else plays. Unlike high-end players, there's absolutely no fair assumption you can make about their ability to play the game. Are they capable of using a skill combo? Do they press more than 4 buttons a minute? Are they capable of soloing even basic quest mobs? These are the sort of questions you begin having to ask yourself, and design suffers for it if you balance around their needs. I hate to bring it up again, but as it's my best point of reference: FFXIV coddles these people fantastically well. If you can't beat the (severely undertuned) Job and Story quests, the game will give you a stacking buff until you manage to succeed. Sheer force of will will get you 60 - there's nothing in the main progression path that you can't do missing 1 or 2 people entirely. It's completely reasonable for them to miss out on the bulk of postgame / endgame content, because there's so much there for them to begin with.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 09:41
|
|
|
This is nitpicky, but I've seen this picture before and something about it puzzles me. Are those supposed to be earrings? They wouldn't work with the rabbit ears.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 09:42
|
|
|
Flesh Forge posted:"Content that is not for everyone" is automatically a dumb idea in a market that is already very hard to carve a niche into. If you're putting major dev time into it then it loving well better attract as many people to your piece of poo poo game as possible. Case in point a little game called WILD STARS MAYBE YOUVE HEARD OF IT
WoW solved the 'content is for everyone' problem and only one expansion after its introduction people poo poo on it. You can't win.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 09:49
|
|
|
Mizuti posted:This is nitpicky, but I've seen this picture before and something about it puzzles me. Are those supposed to be earrings? They wouldn't work with the rabbit ears. Sure they would. She has normal ears too underneath the eighties hair. The rabbit ears are vestigial. Think of it like a spleen for weeaboos.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 09:50
|
|
|
Pierson posted:World of Warcraft solved this problem with Looking for Raid: LFR is great because it completely proves my point - Blizzard keeps trying to leave some barebones semblance of mechanics in LFR fights, and - without fail - groups are incapable of completing them, to the point of either wiping repeatedly for damage buffs or simply disbanding.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 10:06
|
|
|
Niton posted:Did GW2 ever add an inspect feature? I know part of GW2's PvE "issues" used to be that there was absolutely no way to check if another player was wearing the proper gear for an instance, leading to groups disbanding because they couldn't tell who the weak link was. As opposed to groups disbanding because they're the sort of loving arseholes who kick players for not BEING ALL ZERK GEAR or some such crap
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 10:22
|
|
|
Niton posted:These two statements are mutually exclusive, though! The game played by the very bottom percentage of players is so fundamentally different from the game everyone else plays. Unlike high-end players, there's absolutely no fair assumption you can make about their ability to play the game. Yeah see "high end players" are not where the money gets made, I regret to inform you. If the focus of your content is something that repels a majority of your playerbase then you're going to have problems. Not to say hard content has no place, but seriously Wildstar is a prime example (one among many) of what happens once the honeymoon's over and you're left with lovely, gimmicky unfun content that nobody wants to do. Thirsty Dog posted:As opposed to groups disbanding because they're the sort of loving arseholes who kick players for not BEING ALL ZERK GEAR or some such crap this has always been the more likely scenario as far as I've ever seen
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 11:07
|
|
|
Flesh Forge posted:Yeah see "high end players" are not where the money gets made, I regret to inform you. If the focus of your content is something that repels a majority of your playerbase then you're going to have problems. Not to say hard content has no place, but seriously Wildstar is a prime example (one among many) of what happens once the honeymoon's over and you're left with lovely, gimmicky unfun content that nobody wants to do. I think he was talking about the middle ground of players, which most of us fit into, as opposed to the two extremes of world-first raider and keyboard-turning 2 attacks a minute guy. And I'd agree, tuning your content to that second group will alienate not only the high end but also the middle tier people. That said, I don't think ff14 actually does that anyway.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 11:33
|
|
|
megalodong posted:I think he was talking about the middle ground of players, which most of us fit into, as opposed to the two extremes of world-first raider and keyboard-turning 2 attacks a minute guy. And I'd agree, tuning your content to that second group will alienate not only the high end but also the middle tier people. Every MMO out there has leveling content that is so different from its end game content you really don't learn anything at all while leveling, which is one of the poo poo parts of the mmo genre, as a long time player I expect to get very little information from the game itself and know I need to rely on 3rd party sites to know where it is best to level, where I can get the gear I need to start endgame content, what professions, if any, are worth it. Thats why I have always hated leveling, I know its probably the best way to develop a lot of content for these types of games, but collecting bear asses from quest mobs isn't the same as learning to use your CDs properly while tanking. But as long as questing is developed for 1 and maybe more players while endgame content is all large group content for 20+ players, there will always be 2 different games you have to play, there is the leveling grind, then you hit max and then you can start the gearing for endgame process, which is such a different experience from leveling. Consider a new player who has know that you click on quest givers, do what they say, then you get rewards, now the quest givers stop, and you basically have to go out of your way (usually out of the game) to find out what your next step is.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 11:57
|
|
|
Pierson posted:World of Warcraft solved this problem with Looking for Raid: People poo poo on it because Blizzard itself has no idea what they're doing when it comes to balancing LFR. Sometimes it's braindead easy, hit boss, win. Except when they keep certain mechanics from normal+ bosses which just wipes the AFKers and terrible players and everyone gets angry. Blizzard could never really decide who LFR was for. Dragon Soul LFR started as a relatively easy version but you still needed to do mechanics, especially in wing 2, and the set bonuses, trinkets and weapons motivated normal/heroic raiders to go there for upgrades, which led to a lot of burnout and anger over bads holding a raid back. MoP also tied it into catchup/progression for at least normal raiders. When they started putting important lore events into mythic or heroic only, that's one step back towards earlier WoW's design where you had no idea what was happening if you weren't LFR could solve the "content for everyone" problem, which is why I don't agree with Anet's idea to make GW2 raids exclusive and "only for organized groups". But it has to be balanced as such, as soon as you tie it into progression for hardcore players or make it mildly challenging for people who could also be running normal mode if they didn't have to organize raids themselves, it defeats the whole purpose.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 13:01
|
|
|
I think WoW is so old that its history is becoming compressed so that older content just bleeds together for me, the same way actual history does, because I truly and honestly forgot that LFR came into existence with Dragon Soul, not Siege of Orgrimmar. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 13:10
|
|
|
Flesh Forge posted:Yeah see "high end players" are not where the money gets made, I regret to inform you. If the focus of your content is something that repels a majority of your playerbase then you're going to have problems. Not to say hard content has no place, but seriously Wildstar is a prime example (one among many) of what happens once the honeymoon's over and you're left with lovely, gimmicky unfun content that nobody wants to do. Wildstars problem was that it used archaic designs on an already niche market. 20 man and 40 mans on a game that has factions and segregated servers, servers that had further rules like pvp or rp. The players were too fractured to sustain that sort of end game. Tackle in the huge barrier of entry to get in and it gets even worse. Plus its instances were crap and unrewarding. So the only thing the casual populace could do in the game was play house.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 13:36
|
|
|
Flesh Forge posted:Yeah see "high end players" are not where the money gets made, I regret to inform you. If the focus of your content is something that repels a majority of your playerbase then you're going to have problems. Not to say hard content has no place, but seriously Wildstar is a prime example (one among many) of what happens once the honeymoon's over and you're left with lovely, gimmicky unfun content that nobody wants to do. The important thing with the GW2 example here is that we're not talking about the "focus" of the content with raids. It's one raid, out of a bunch of other expansion stuff. In fact, they're significantly altering the other main PvE content--fractals, essentially mini-dungeons--to lower the required time investment and make them more accessible. Anything else about raids at this point (difficulty, length, etc.) would be pure speculation on my part, so I won't bother with it here. I agree that a game that exclusively caters to poopsocking masochists is a really lovely idea in the MMO market, but "including a single raid that is intended to be difficult while lowering the barrier of entry for the rest of the group PvE content" doesn't fall under that for me. It helps that GW2 still doesn't have a gear treadmill and won't have an attunement process, so that particular shittiness, at least, is averted.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 14:27
|
|
|
Niton posted:LFR is great because it completely proves my point - Blizzard keeps trying to leave some barebones semblance of mechanics in LFR fights, and - without fail - groups are incapable of completing them, to the point of either wiping repeatedly for damage buffs or simply disbanding. 100% agree with pretty much everything your saying. I think the people who say "content should be do-able by everyone" should be forced to play group content with the bottom 25% of any game. Pretty sure your opinions will change.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 14:34
|
|
|
So what I'm getting from reading this thread and the GW2 thread is that the 'Casual', 'Non-Tryhard', 'Life Haver' or whatever they would like to call themselves would like the following in all MMO end game content:
That seems to be the basics that make good MMO end game content according to many in this thread and the GW2 thread. I enjoy challenge in my games(I would like to point out that challenge does not mean grind) so would find this form of end game dull and unrewarding but that's just me. I'd be curious how many people would stick around a MMO that actually met all those criteria for their endgame content. Some day somebody might make the inverse Wildstar and we'll get to find out.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 14:42
|
|
|
Everything on that list sounds pretty good actually
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 14:49
|
|
|
Rylek posted:So what I'm getting from reading this thread and the GW2 thread is that the 'Casual', 'Non-Tryhard', 'Life Haver' or whatever they would like to call themselves would like the following in all MMO end game content: It helps to remember that, so far, Guild Wars 2 has only reinforced those things. Boss mechanics in dungeons can be largely ignored and/or can be beaten with the same strategy as every other boss (stack, blast Might, do DPS). At this point, many goons are experienced enough at the dungeons that they can four-man or even three-man it, so bringing along underleveled characters doesn't really make that much of a difference. A group that knows what they're doing can beat most dungeon paths in less than 15 minutes, and the few that can't be beaten that quickly are largely hated by the more casual players (most Arah paths, Twilight Arbor's Aetherpath). A full fractal run takes around 45 minutes to an hour and that length of time is often mentioned as unacceptable. And if you can't do dungeons, you can get all the dungeon rewards by PvPing (and if you never win, you'll still get there, just slower). Basically, most things on your list are how the game already works. If raids turn out exactly how ArenaNet say they will (and this is a stretch), it's the first time they've significantly broken away from that. Raids will also reward you with the means to make legendary armor sets, and there don't appear to be any plans to offer those any other way than raids. They're changing fractals so that you only need to run one mini-dungeon for a full run (it's currently four randomly-chosen ones), significantly lowering the time investment involved, largely because raids will probably take a long time even when your group knows what they're doing. My realistic prediction is that, within a month or so of each new raid wing coming out, people will generally have it on farm and casual players like me can do it, but it'll probably still take 45 minutes to an hour per wing--that seems to be ArenaNet's target for "hardcore" PvE content, judging by how fractals are right now. I'm a pretty casual player, but by GW2 standards I'm a full-on grognard. Harrow fucked around with this message at 15:08 on Sep 7, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 15:05
|
|
|
Flesh Forge posted:Yeah see "high end players" are not where the money gets made, I regret to inform you. If the focus of your content is something that repels a majority of your playerbase then you're going to have problems. Not to say hard content has no place, but seriously Wildstar is a prime example (one among many) of what happens once the honeymoon's over and you're left with lovely, gimmicky unfun content that nobody wants to do. Content made for high end players and content made for average players superficially resemble each other, though, and can easily be re-tuned to something enjoyable for the other type. Content made for low end players doesn't even superficially resemble the game anyone else is playing, and it's difficult to tune it to be interesting to the average player because of how little you have to work with. Both MMOs with major progression raiding design bosses at their hardest, then remove abilities for their easier difficulties. There's a good reason for that. Designing around the low end is as much, if not more, of a folly as designing around the SUPER MMO ELITE, because the game design they require can't even be tuned into anything interesting. Niton fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Sep 7, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 15:06
|
|
|
Also, I think ArenaNet's time requirement model for PvE content is fantastic, but the whole game's class design felt ironically way more bland to me than Trinity MMOs thanks to that same lack of assumptions being made about you.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 15:12
|
|
|
Niton posted:Also, I think ArenaNet's time requirement model for PvE content is fantastic, but the whole game's class design felt ironically way more bland to me than Trinity MMOs thanks to that same lack of assumptions being made about you. Yeah, and I hope some of the changes they're making for Heart of Thorns will address that a little, by actually giving a poo poo about needing "support" and "control" in PvE content, as well as putting in enemies who are much easier to kill with condition damage than direct damage. Basically, I hope each profession gets a chance to actually shine this time around.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 15:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 29, 2024 08:41 |
|
|
Harrow posted:It helps to remember that, so far, Guild Wars 2 has only reinforced those things. ... A group that knows what they're doing can beat most dungeon paths in less than 15 minutes, and the few that can't be beaten that quickly are largely hated by the more casual players (most Arah paths, Twilight Arbor's Aetherpath). You just completely contradicted yourself though. Most of the dungeons in GW2 are really hard due to a combination of awful design and the lack of a trinity mechanic that allows a decent tank/healer to carry 2-3 actually bad players, and so the vast majority of the player base completely ignores them. GW2 dungeons certainly aren't the super easy + fast content that the post you quoted is talking about.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 15:27
|
|
