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Mattavist posted:You just completely contradicted yourself though. Most of the dungeons in GW2 are really hard due to a combination of awful design and the lack of a trinity mechanic that allows a decent tank/healer to carry 2-3 actually bad players, and so the vast majority of the player base completely ignores them. GW2 dungeons certainly aren't the super easy + fast content that the post you quoted is talking about. They weren't at first, but they kind of are now. People have generally learned that if you play the dungeons the way they were intended, they're hard, but if you stack in a corner, blast fire fields for Might, and spam your DPS skills, they're extremely easy. You barely even need to be coordinated to pull that off. The dungeon paths people dislike are the ones that are either long, or don't let you brute force them. Fractals remain pretty tricky at times, because they often won't let you do that, but not in a consistently fun way, unfortunately.
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Sep 7, 2015 15:32
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I just want you all to remember that Wildstar's casual raid content is world bosses according to their raid designer and that some people seem to think developing content for casual players isn't needed, or is a waste of resources.quote:Actually, come f2p there will be "thousands and thousands" of players doing normal raiding. I am not against the idea of a casual raid, it just seems like a waste of resources sense casual raiding is already in the game come f2p, it's just world content instead of instanced content. I would rather they focus on new DUNGEONs and new raid tiers, because I think new dungeons are far more important than casual raiding as well, its the best content to do with friends.
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Sep 7, 2015 15:53
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Harrow posted:They weren't at first, but they kind of are now. People have generally learned that if you play the dungeons the way they were intended, they're hard, but if you stack in a corner, blast fire fields for Might, and spam your DPS skills, they're extremely easy. You barely even need to be coordinated to pull that off. The dungeon paths people dislike are the ones that are either long, or don't let you brute force them. The thing is that people dont run instances because its fun in GW2, the instance design is probably some of the worst in the industry. They do it because they want to farm for their dungeon sets to play pretty princess or to get money to trade for other pretty princess gear. Which is not much different than running instances to get better stat gear honestly, but being as bad as they are its just more tedious and more broken of an experience than in other games where the dungeons are actually fun/challenging in the right ways.
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Sep 7, 2015 16:08
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Cao Ni Ma posted:The thing is that people dont run instances because its fun in GW2, the instance design is probably some of the worst in the industry. They do it because they want to farm for their dungeon sets to play pretty princess or to get money to trade for other pretty princess gear. You'll get no argument from me there. They dropped the ball so hard on dungeons they've all-but-officially abandoned them. They're even calling fractals "fractal dungeons" now, as if to draw attention away from the dungeons they're just never going to touch again. My main hope for the raids they've announced is that they'll actually be able to make it a fun experience. The open-world stuff they've let us try in the betas for Heart of Thorns is promising, but that doesn't necessarily translate into good instanced content.
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Sep 7, 2015 16:13
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quote:I would rather they focus on new DUNGEONs and new raid tiers, because I think new dungeons are far more important than casual raiding as well, its the best content to do with friends This part is true!
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Sep 7, 2015 16:34
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In the end, "challenging in the right ways" is something you will never get MMO players to agree on. One or two Johnny Casuals who do 50% or less of their theoretical performance and stand in 90% of all the boss AoE are enough to make things like the WoW Cataclysm launch heroics an 1h+ affair (after 30+ minutes in a queue) and dragged out the already tedious trash-filled corridor dungeons in FF14 to the point of frustration. If you bring that up, raiders and tryhards are going to tell you your experience is wrong, the bosses are easy, the dungeons are fine and casuals ruin everything. The worst part about GW2 dungeons is how they couldn't even be arsed to tweak the most obvious things. Stuff like having way, way too much trash (there's probably an hour of trash in every single dungeon if you bothered to clear everything between bosses), or bosses whose mechanics are okay and sometimes even fun, except they have about 2-3 times the HP they'd need, so the fights just get tedious quickly. The fact they don't leverage their event system enough (they are supposed to in raids), or that their stat system just emphasizes personal damage over everything else would have been a 2nd step. But they never even made it to the first part before going "welp, this is too hard, let's fire everyone!". Trash in general is something I really started to hate in MMOs. Like, in WoW raids and the better dungeons trash serves a purpose - trash gives you some respite between full-concentration bosses, mobs drop some recipes and some gear, they give you reputation and sometimes there's lore events with trash. But when trash is obviously there just to make your corridor to the next boss take longer, get hosed. A lot of WoW dungeons still ended up feeling like that, as well as 90% of FF14 dungeons and pretty much all of GW2's. TSW dungeons did it right (too bad the bosses were tuned by idiots who couldn't even beat their own encounters, with a reward structure that was insane and general combat mechanics/balance which is at best described as "wonky").
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Sep 7, 2015 16:50
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orcane posted:Trash in general is something I really started to hate in MMOs. Like, in WoW raids and the better dungeons trash serves a purpose - trash gives you some respite between full-concentration bosses, mobs drop some recipes and some gear, they give you reputation and sometimes there's lore events with trash. But when trash is obviously there just to make your corridor to the next boss take longer, get hosed. A lot of WoW dungeons still ended up feeling like that, as well as 90% of FF14 dungeons and pretty much all of GW2's. TSW dungeons did it right (too bad the bosses were tuned by idiots who couldn't even beat their own encounters, with a reward structure that was insane and general combat mechanics/balance which is at best described as "wonky"). Dungeons and raids where each encounter is meaningful and fun and nothing feels like a waste of the players' time would be a great thing. Is that how TSW tends to do it? I never really did any dungeons in that, though I did really enjoy the investigation missions.
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Sep 7, 2015 16:56
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Harrow posted:I agree that a game that exclusively caters to poopsocking masochists is a really lovely idea in the MMO market, but "including a single raid that is intended to be difficult while lowering the barrier of entry for the rest of the group PvE content" doesn't fall under that for me. It helps that GW2 still doesn't have a gear treadmill and won't have an attunement process, so that particular shittiness, at least, is averted. I'm not really commenting on GW2 in particular here, more about the "elite content for elite gamers" notion. Double Monocle posted:I think the people who say "content should be do-able by everyone" should be forced to play group content with the bottom 25% of any game. Pretty sure your opinions will change. Everyone is already forced to play with the bottom 25% anyway. I mean yes of course ~goons are good at video games~ and you can always find a flawless perfectly-geared raid group in your goon guild and gently caress the rest of the world but that doesn't mean the rest of the world isn't paying the bulk of the bill for your gimmicky, unfun content. 
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Sep 7, 2015 16:56
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Cao Ni Ma posted:The thing is that people dont run instances because its fun in GW2, the instance design is probably some of the worst in the industry. They do it because they want to farm for their dungeon sets to play pretty princess or to get money to trade for other pretty princess gear. Are there any MMOs anywhere in which people do stuff because it is fun and if loot phatness were removed from the equation they'd still do it? I can remember one but it died  actually I'd include Champions but it's not doing that well either
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Sep 7, 2015 17:00
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Seriously savage content is like 1% of the game and the rate which it updates is once every 6 months. In that time you used to get 6 more high level 4 mans, 1 more 24 man raid, 2 new beast tribes with daily quests, 2 new 8 man bosses, a slew of story quests that progressed it to where it eventually leads to an expansion. Not to mention the other things they added in between. This isn't a massive set piece that accounts for the majority of the content that a patch has like in other MMOs.
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Sep 7, 2015 17:08
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Ah yes daily quests, another stellar gating mechanism devised by MMO developers to keep their subscription money coming in.
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Sep 7, 2015 17:14
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I just realized we're (some of us at least) having a socialist vs. libertarian debate in the context of video games, no wonder it's so futile
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Sep 7, 2015 17:15
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Flesh Forge posted:I'm not really commenting on GW2 in particular here, more about the "elite content for elite gamers" notion. My stance on "elite content," and this is probably why I'm cautiously optimistic about GW2's implementation of it (and why I brought up GW2 in relation to this at all), is that it should be difficult only because it's difficult, not because it requires grinding tons of gear or doing a long attunement or just being really long and tedious. Drop the barrier of entry, basically--anyone can try, and chances are a month or so after each piece of difficult content releases, anyone will be able to do it, too, because they're not being held back by gear grinding. It also shouldn't at all be the majority of the content. That said, the idea that I might be some kind of MMO libertarian terrifies me.
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Sep 7, 2015 17:27
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Flesh Forge posted:I just realized we're (some of us at least) having a socialist vs. libertarian debate in the context of video games, no wonder it's so futile So which MMO is the most Randian? 
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Sep 7, 2015 17:41
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Harrow posted:My stance on "elite content," and this is probably why I'm cautiously optimistic about GW2's implementation of it (and why I brought up GW2 in relation to this at all), is that it should be difficult only because it's difficult, not because it requires grinding tons of gear or doing a long attunement or just being really long and tedious. Drop the barrier of entry, basically--anyone can try, and chances are a month or so after each piece of difficult content releases, anyone will be able to do it, too, because they're not being held back by gear grinding. It also shouldn't at all be the majority of the content. No, it will be difficult because it's way overtuned, everything has two or three times the HP it should have, is flat out broken and/or not worth the time doing right until someone finds out the spots you can stand in, grab a drinking bird toy, go afk for ten minutes and have it press the damage button for you over and over.
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Sep 7, 2015 17:41
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Lima posted:So which MMO is the most Randian? This is not opening a can of worms because there is zero debate necessary. The answer is EVE.
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Sep 7, 2015 17:45
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Flesh Forge posted:Are there any MMOs anywhere in which people do stuff because it is fun and if loot phatness were removed from the equation they'd still do it? I can remember one but it died I loved PvPing in EQ2 and I didn't get any gear or anything out of it. Although there were plenty of people who were only interested in enemy tokens and wouldn't even fight a person if they didn't get any.
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Sep 7, 2015 17:53
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Wildstar is bad. FFXIV is good.
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Sep 7, 2015 18:04
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Flesh Forge posted:Everyone is already forced to play with the bottom 25% anyway. I mean yes of course ~goons are good at video games~ and you can always find a flawless perfectly-geared raid group in your goon guild and gently caress the rest of the world but that doesn't mean the rest of the world isn't paying the bulk of the bill for your gimmicky, unfun content. The people i'm talking about are far from "the rest of the world" - they're a slightly larger minority compared to ~elite gamers~. They're players who mirror all of the negative traits of ELITE GAMERS while also being unpleasant to play with when they're not talking. Average players shouldn't have to put up with that, nor should those players be catered to. Niton fucked around with this message at 18:14 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 18:11
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Morglon posted:No, it will be difficult because it's way overtuned, everything has two or three times the HP it should have, is flat out broken and/or not worth the time doing right until someone finds out the spots you can stand in, grab a drinking bird toy, go afk for ten minutes and have it press the damage button for you over and over. I know you probably haven't played GW2 recently, given how much you hate it. That's probably why you aren't aware that all the new story content instances in Season 2 and all the bosses in the new zones have been unstackable, their HP has been reduced, and they almost all feature escalating movement gimmicks that require you to stay light on your feet and reposition constantly. Your criticism was certainly valid with respect to GW2's condition at launch but it's woefully out of date today. Even many of the original dungeon bosses are no longer fought in a stack, but rather in an open fight, because people have learnt to play.
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Sep 7, 2015 18:21
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Kessel posted:I know you probably haven't played GW2 recently, given how much you hate it. That's probably why you aren't aware that all the new story content instances in Season 2 and all the bosses in the new zones have been unstackable, their HP has been reduced, and they almost all feature escalating movement gimmicks that require you to stay light on your feet and reposition constantly. Bjarl the Rampager in CoE P1 is one of my favorite dungeon bosses because you can't really stack him and he actually has a mechanic. And if you're quick with interrupts you can actually make a difference with them. It's a well-designed fight all around. Some of the dungeons are still "stack and DPS" fests, but yeah, some of them are actually pretty fun now. They haven't shed their negative reputation, though.
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Sep 7, 2015 18:26
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Harrow posted:They haven't shed their negative reputation, though. That's because they're loving terrible. They were products of a company that had decided to shed the trinity but didn't actually know what to do without it. The dumb no-trinity game is now three years old and its developers have finally figured out the basics of what not to do when designing encounters.
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Sep 7, 2015 18:30
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Kessel posted:That's because they're loving terrible. They were products of a company that had decided to shed the trinity but didn't actually know what to do without it. I wonder if the season 2 Living World bosses will find their way into fractals like some of the season 1 bosses did. The crystal dudes in the Glint cave were pretty fun.
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Sep 7, 2015 18:36
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Niton posted:The people i'm talking about are far from "the rest of the world" - they're a slightly larger minority compared to ~elite gamers~. They're players who mirror all of the negative traits of ELITE GAMERS while also being unpleasant to play with when they're not talking. Average players shouldn't have to put up with that, nor should those players be catered to. If you exclude the great majority of players in most MMOs, the ones who will tinker with dumb poo poo and who largely ignore the uber gimmicky raid content, then yeah okay you can talk about the average of what remains I guess
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Sep 7, 2015 18:49
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Flesh Forge posted:If you exclude the great majority of players in most MMOs, the ones who will tinker with dumb poo poo and who largely ignore the uber gimmicky raid content, then yeah okay you can talk about the average of what remains I guess I wonder if you've ever been introduced to the concept of a bell curve?
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Sep 7, 2015 19:16
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:I wonder if you've ever been introduced to the concept of a bell curve? The only curves MMO players tend to know are the curves of their characters
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Sep 7, 2015 19:18
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Don't forget EXP curves. They are essential to determining the most efficient amount of poopsocking required to max level. 
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Sep 7, 2015 19:21
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The massive curve of my gut.
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Sep 7, 2015 19:26
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dumping trinity is good
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Sep 7, 2015 19:29
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RottenK posted:dumping trinity is good What's good about it?
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Sep 7, 2015 19:35
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Shy posted:What's good about it? Now Neo can finally learn to be his own man.
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Sep 7, 2015 20:03
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I tried FF14 this past week thanks to the strong praise it got in this thread, actually. I really didn't enjoy it at all after about ten hours or so. The whole game felt sterile and on rails. Dungeons were strange combinations of snooze-fests and BALLS TO THE WALL difficult. Since none of the trash mobs can drop anything - loot or whatever - they are literally just trash put in place to slow you down. Bosses have interesting, tough mechanics - but after the stupidity of the earlier dungeon, this felt like an unwelcome change. I play a healer, and several times we survived only by the barest skin of our teeth. I'm only level 40 so it might get better, but it just feels... kind of soulless. There's no point in exploration, because there are no hidden treasures. Mobs don't drop loot. If there's a tiny rope stretched between two poles, it functions as a brick wall: you can't jump off the bridge, invisible walls are everywhere, and there's one path to take. Maybe I'm just done with MMOs.
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Sep 7, 2015 20:17
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Pierson posted:World of Warcraft solved this problem with Looking for Raid: Try as I might, I cannot get back into WoW because of things like this. I'm a casual player and that LFR right there looks like hot garbage to me. I think the only game where I was able to raid as a casual was in RIFT as you got those tokens for gear and I saw the loot drops/Kewpuh yelling at retards as an added bonus. FFXIV does the old school EQ boss loot table poo poo that I do not like. I still get decked-out over long stretches, so gating gear/content for only those willing to dedicate to a schedule for a video game, gently caress that. GW2's raid system sounds like another shitstorm, so the Hardcore players should be happy.
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Sep 7, 2015 20:18
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Mayor McCheese posted:Try as I might, I cannot get back into WoW because of things like this. I'm a casual player and that LFR right there looks like hot garbage to me. I think the only game where I was able to raid as a casual was in RIFT as you got those tokens for gear and I saw the loot drops/Kewpuh yelling at retards as an added bonus. FFXIV does the old school EQ boss loot table poo poo that I do not like. I still get decked-out over long stretches, so gating gear/content for only those willing to dedicate to a schedule for a video game, gently caress that. WoW ditched LFR a bit ago, I think. Now they have "flex raiding," instead. I think there are only two tiers now--flex raid and mythic. Flex raiding scales to the amount of people you have. It can be really easy or "normal" depending on the size group you bring. It's intended to be the main raiding experience for most players. Mythic is always 20-person and is where they put all the really hard mechanics and stuff. I don't play WoW, but it seems like a good system, and easier to understand. Flex raiding is "normal" and mythic is hard, that's it. As for GW2's raid system, I'm not even sure there is a system. It just sounds like "here is a dungeon for 10 people and also we would like you to use some gear other than Berserker, please," and that's about it. They're using ridiculous marketing language in their blog posts about it, though. It will apparently be epic! And it will make you and your hardcore friends cry because it's hard! Or some poo poo.
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Sep 7, 2015 20:25
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Thursday Next posted:I tried FF14 this past week thanks to the strong praise it got in this thread, actually. I really didn't enjoy it at all after about ten hours or so. While the game increases in complexity a lot in the instances following Titan (Stone Vigil is the first story instance afterwards, as well as Qarn and Cutter's Cry before then), it's still a very on-rails experience the whole way through. Heavensward is a lot better about letting you get places, since flight means you have no respect for barriers, but you still have to do the bulk of each zone on the ground. If you didn't like the core of the world, you probably won't like what comes after all that much, but it does open up and become a more full-fledged game starting with The Stone Vigil. LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:I wonder if you've ever been introduced to the concept of a bell curve? This is absolutely someone who has never seen a bell curve before. I can't imagine what else he thinks i'm referencing. Niton fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 20:27
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Kessel posted:That's because they're loving terrible. They were products of a company that had decided to shed the trinity but didn't actually know what to do without it. It wasn't even that, really. The true fault was that they simply did not design a good action game. Dark Souls 1 and Dark Souls 2 are both a blast to play with other people online, and they're entirely without a trinity. You can just play whatever the hell you want and you can still have a nice time. Guild Wars 2 is just really, really bad at actually being an action game.
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Sep 7, 2015 20:36
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Harrow posted:WoW ditched LFR a bit ago, I think. Now they have "flex raiding," instead. I think there are only two tiers now--flex raid and mythic. Flex raiding scales to the amount of people you have. It can be really easy or "normal" depending on the size group you bring. It's intended to be the main raiding experience for most players. Mythic is always 20-person and is where they put all the really hard mechanics and stuff. I don't play WoW, but it seems like a good system, and easier to understand. Flex raiding is "normal" and mythic is hard, that's it. No LFR is still a thing. Its the lowest tier of content, followed by flex normal, flex heroic and then mythic. Also please dont listen to ANet when they try to hype you up for something. They'll deliver it half made, then they'll forget about it and move one to the next thing they need to hype you about. They are the equivalent of a kid with ADHD.
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Sep 7, 2015 20:42
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Cao Ni Ma posted:Also please dont listen to ANet when they try to hype you up for something. They'll deliver it half made, then they'll forget about it and move one to the next thing they need to hype you about. They are the equivalent of a kid with ADHD. You mean like Engineer?
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Sep 7, 2015 20:55
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Harrow posted:WoW ditched LFR a bit ago, I think. Now they have "flex raiding," instead. I think there are only two tiers now--flex raid and mythic. Flex raiding scales to the amount of people you have. It can be really easy or "normal" depending on the size group you bring. It's intended to be the main raiding experience for most players. Mythic is always 20-person and is where they put all the really hard mechanics and stuff. I don't play WoW, but it seems like a good system, and easier to understand. Flex raiding is "normal" and mythic is hard, that's it. Ideally there should be a system, but if past events are any indication, Anet is going to add raids (a raid) in some form, then forget about it if it's not immensely popular. If they were serious about it, three difficulties would be pretty useful - a "LFR" difficulty (as it was said, WoW still has that) for, say, the lowest 33% of the bell curve, a scaling variant (WoW's "flex") for the middle 33%, and a fixed size "hard" mode for the top 33%. A LFR variant should scale too, since the main idea is to get people to play it without having to organize things. The hard mode version without scaling ensures that you can tune the raid, but then again tuning is hard and I'm not sure Anet is up to tuning all their no-trinity classes for tryhard content (they already couldn't do that for fractals). Vermain posted:It wasn't even that, really. The true fault was that they simply did not design a good action game. Dark Souls 1 and Dark Souls 2 are both a blast to play with other people online, and they're entirely without a trinity. You can just play whatever the hell you want and you can still have a nice time. Guild Wars 2 is just really, really bad at actually being an action game. Not having tank-healer-DPS trinity doesn't make it an action game.
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Sep 7, 2015 20:58
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Hy_C posted:These are all the quests you have to do post 50 in order to access the expansion. Most of these quests have multiple parts and take you across different zones. Thanks for curing me of any desire to resub to FFXIV.
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