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Mr. Fortitude posted:...what plot hole? Metal Gear 2 itself answered how Big Boss survived the events of Outer Heaven, in that he was a barely alive potato that was fitted with prosthetics and bionic parts from Madnar. Kind of implausible, yes but not a plot hole, especially since the series has crazier stuff than Big Boss surviving Outer Heaven. kojima already said that a: he was planning on retcon'ing some poo poo and b: mg1 and mg2 are only ever taken in broad strokes canon wise like portable ops, not the finer details.
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Sep 7, 2015 21:53
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The only truly canon parts of MG1 and MG2 are the stock footage seen in Ocelot's explanation of everything in MGS4.
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Sep 7, 2015 21:54
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Full Battle Rattle posted:Really I wish there was some kind of way to reset the soldiers down to the base levels. Even doing the storage shed things there's still a zillion dudes in riot suits everywhere. And helmets, oh my god helmets. When every little outpost is packed with super difficult dudes it starts to impact how fun the game is, imo. Things eventually go back down once you don't engage in the activity that brings them out, but apparently if you wear the chicken hat, then it returns back to normal much faster.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:00
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Mr. Fortitude posted:Not... really? There's nothing in the Solid games that blatantly contradicts anything from the MSX games besides Madnar still being alive. I suppose I'm okay with retconning the MSX games because I don't have any great love for them but I'd want a remake of them to fit in the canon better, but that's not going to happen. I think that's why some people are annoyed, MGS V ends up raising more questions than it answers yet it's going to be the last game by Kojima and probably in the current canon. Where's the magical oil making GBS threads bacteria, Oilix, than was the entire point of MG2? 80% of the plot of those games is never referenced again or outright contradicted.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:07
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Did we ever figure out where Zanzibar Land actually was?
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Sep 7, 2015 22:08
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It's not in Zanzibar?
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Sep 7, 2015 22:10
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Oxxidation posted:You're an idiot. Hideo Kojima was given 50-70 Million Bucks to make Metal Gear Solid 4 and Three years of development after it was announced in 2005. MGS4 was also directed and written by Shuyo Murata with Hideo Kojima being tacked on later in the project when psychopathic fans sent Konami death threats even after Hideo said Snake Eater was gonna be the last one and if there was gonna be a fourth he was gonna have someone else write and direct it. Now we have Hideo here with a 80 Million + budget and solo directing and their very own "Best Engine in the World" in house Fox Engine with another Three years of development from announcement and the Release of Ground Zeroes as a sort of prologue. In return we get a game that is literally unfinished. - The story is a complete unholy mess and 70+% of it is in the audio cassettes. - It is clearly apparent to anyone that plays the game that it feels like they cut a third zone out. Not to mention that Africa is filled with massive pockets of negative possibility space. - They cut out the conclusion to the Eli arc. http://imgur.com/a/TcS6c - The FOB system is loving weird. - They padded the gently caress out of Missions and Side Ops with a large number of them taking place in the same part of the world with nearly identical objectives. Even with all the signs of desperation I see to pad out the game its still a really fun open world game. My issue is that it isn't a loving Metal Gear game. Metal gear games are all about being on a single mission to get something done. There is a leader bad guy and he has a team of loving weirdos with superpowers and insane rants and they are standing in your way. There is a bunch of people calling you on the radio to update you on the situation and progressing the story. There are a fuckton of cutscenes to the point it is almost a loving movie. The plot twists and turns like a roller coaster as something that should be straightforward is skewed heavily by complications. You could never tell what was gonna happen next. The boss fights were stacked against you and sneaking though areas without detection were far more intense. Instead what I got was a mission that I am constantly told is "Kill Skull Face" and then I do everything but that and he ends up being foiled by something I had nothing to do with. His three "weirdos" literally have zero dialogue and personality. Miller and Ocelot are on the radio simply narrating your actions. There is is only a handful of cutscenes that are super short. The entire story could be predicted easily hours beforehand. The major boss fights of the game could either be cheesed with a loving tank and walker at your disposal or you could one shot the boss and even had the choice to walk away from the fight entirely. I didn't even have to move from the starting position to clear the Quiet fight on extreme. Every loving mission where you could stealth is ruined with traq sniper rifles and folton spam, there is no intensity when you also have buddies that can kill everyone for you or just drop a loving bomb on their base and never set off an alarm. Its a loving cake walk. This is a Grand Theft Auto/Far Cry sandbox game with Metal Gear characters in it. They missed their own theme. They poorly planned their game out with the massive budget at their disposal. They padded the gently caress out of the content. They took us all to the beach and showed us the sand but forgot they were supposed to build a castle. Then this rear end in a top hat who sold me this has the loving balls to release a video about how awesome he is and that cancer kids were literally dying to play it. He didn't make a Metal Gear game is my problem. I paid sixty bucks for something else. It is fun, but it is not what I wanted. Metal Gear Solid 5 Budget http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/mgs-5-phantom-pain-cost-konami-over-80m-fuelling-speculation-hideo-kojima-split-1513796 Metal Gear Solid 4 Budget https://web.archive.org/web/20131106085806/http://blog.knowyourmoney.co.uk/index.php/2008/08/10-most-expensive-video-game-budgets-ever
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Sep 7, 2015 22:17
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Funky Britches posted:Where's the magical oil making GBS threads bacteria, Oilix, than was the entire point of MG2? 80% of the plot of those games is never referenced again or outright contradicted. Rising of all games, mentions what happened. The Patriots confiscated OILIX and tried to mass produce it but with unsuccessful results, while using the war economy in the meantime because there was an oil crisis. Doktor mentions it when you collect 20 hands. Of course if you don't consider Rising canon then it's straight up forgotten about.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:18
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Broseph Brostar posted:It's not in Zanzibar? Nope, Central Asia, apparently
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Sep 7, 2015 22:20
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Mr. Fortitude posted:...what plot hole? Metal Gear 2 itself answered how Big Boss survived the events of Outer Heaven, in that he was a barely alive potato that was fitted with prosthetics and bionic parts from Madnar. Kind of implausible, yes but not a plot hole, especially since the series has crazier stuff than Big Boss surviving Outer Heaven. The plot hole was how Big Boss could simultaneously be holed up as the commander of Outer Heaven while also being the head of / training the CIA's Foxhound unit. Kojima himself has said that MG1 / 2 would need significant rewriting now to fit into his larger vision of the series. No matter what, there were going to be some contradictory points / unanswered questions unless you expected TPP to contain Fox-Engine remakes of MG1 and MG2. Venom is the one killed at Outer Heaven because his usefulness has come to an end. He was meant to be a public face while the real Big Boss worked in the shadows to fulfill his dream of a nation of soldiers (Zanzibar Land). Instead Venom becomes disillusioned with BB (which is pretty obvious from the final cinematic, imo) and ends up hunkering down in Outer Heaven, going nuclear, and trying to take the world hostage. There are a few different ways you could interpret what happens with the interplay between the two Big Bosses, but ultimately none of that matters. It's the broad strokes that set up the later games, and expecting TPP to be able to perfectly answer every question raised by the crazy plotlines of half a dozen games over 28 years that were never meant to tie together is probably expecting too much. TPP answers one of the big questions about MG1 and makes MG2's plot slightly less ridiculous. It gives us an answer about how Ocelot / Miller ended up where they did by the time MGS1 rolls around, and why Liquid turned out the way he did. It does its best to answer the questions about Zero and Cipher. It may not have done all of those things perfectly, and it's okay to be critical of that. But TPP's story is actually pretty drat ambitious and it gives more than enough information to end up with satisfactory answers for the truly important questions about the MGS storyline. Yeah, some details are going to require some futzing or some minor mental gymnastics, and you'll have to just accept some things that don't 100% make sense at face value, but that is true of drat near every piece of fiction you will ever encounter in your entire life, and considering just how long and complex and self-contained the MGS world is, it's really pretty amazing that things are even as clean as they are.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:25
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I thought the game was pretty good
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Sep 7, 2015 22:25
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:The plot hole was how Big Boss could simultaneously be holed up as the commander of Outer Heaven while also being the head of / training the CIA's Foxhound unit. I wouldn't say that's a plothole exactly. I mean if that's a plothole then so is Zero leading XOF during the events of Operation Snake Eater in the background at the same time as he's giving Naked Snake advice. Plus all of your support team in Metal Gear 1 besides Big Boss weren't even from FOXHOUND, they were rebel soldiers fighting against Outer Heaven like Dianne and Kyle Schneider, whereas I'm supposed to believe Zero led XOF from the shadows while speaking to Para-Medic and Sigint at the same time while speaking to Naked Snake? I dunno man, both are kind of hard to believe but TPP kind of introduced it's own plotholes in an attempt to fix the one you perceived as one. vvv I kind of like it and dislike how Zero was handled. I like how he realized just what a monster he created and tried to make ammends but it was too late by that point, but I also hate how it shows Zero is a scheming rear end in a top hat even before he formed CIPHER/The Patriots and came into the possession of the Philosopher's Legacy. MGS 4 shows that the falling out from Big Boss, the death of The Boss and power corrupted him and he went crazy as a result but MGS V shows him scheming behind the shadows before The Boss even died in the first place. Plus in MGS 3 he keeps talking about how FOX is untested to the CIA and they'd need to prove themselves just as America would need to prove its innocence, yet I doubt the CIA would have approved of him handling XOF at the same time working in the background if they were barely willing to give FOX a chance to exist. Selenephos fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 22:29
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I really like the way they handled Zero, actually. He tries to stop the monster he and Big Boss made, but can't and is doomed to be trapped in his body until he's well over a hundred and Big Boss, who has no idea the lengths Zero went to help him, takes him off life support.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:30
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Drinkfist posted:words I think I agree with most of what you said but sadly there's too much anger at video games in this post
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Sep 7, 2015 22:34
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If Fultons and tranq rifles and air strikes make the game too easy then...don't use them? I mean you'll have to Fulton some dudes to make your base, but considering that enemy guards can spot them from about 50 meters away and immediately start investigating, it's not like it's some magical win-button. Especially later when they actively start shooting them down. I mean, no poo poo you're not going to have any trouble sneaking through an African shanty town if you call in a jet fighter to drop a 5,000 pound bomb on it. The point of a sandbox game like this is that you can do whatever you want. You can turn every single mission and side-op into a Subsistence run if you want. Throw on your naked camo and try sneaking through a mission with only your fist and a cardboard box. Complaining that the strong tools the game gives you trivialize everything makes no sense. That's like saying stealth camo makes the other games too easy. This game is as easy or as hard as you make it. You can do an insane number of things to make the game harder for yourself, if you so desire. Hell, you have to deliberately go out of your way to get a silenced tranq sniper rifle before the endgame in the first place. I feel like people have forgotten how to think for themselves and make their own fun in open world games. Everyone wants to do things in the most "optimal" way and then complains when there isn't a challenge.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:35
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I think the most hosed up thing about the ending is the name on the passport that Ocelot gives Big Boss is the name you pick.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:39
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randombattle posted:I think the most hosed up thing about the ending is the name on the passport that Ocelot gives Big Boss is the name you pick. Good thing I had the foresight to name my avatar Jack.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:41
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randombattle posted:I think the most hosed up thing about the ending is the name on the passport that Ocelot gives Big Boss is the name you pick. Set the name as Big Boss and, well. Ocelot is poo poo at his job.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:42
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Here's your new identity boss. From now you are "Not Big Boss Totally a Different Guy Smith" I worked hard to set this up Boss.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:43
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randombattle posted:I think the most hosed up thing about the ending is the name on the passport that Ocelot gives Big Boss is the name you pick. Big boss is an rear end in a top hat who stole our life to lay low and took credit for all we did when he returned
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Sep 7, 2015 22:43
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"The new name we've given you is Jack Bauer. You'll be working at a counter terrorism unit" 24 is what Big Boss did during his downtime.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:44
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Mr. Fortitude posted:I wouldn't say that's a plothole exactly. I mean if that's a plothole then so is Zero leading XOF during the events of Operation Snake Eater in the background at the same time as he's giving Naked Snake advice. Plus all of your support team in Metal Gear 1 besides Big Boss weren't even from FOXHOUND, they were rebel soldiers fighting against Outer Heaven like Dianne and Kyle Schneider, whereas I'm supposed to believe Zero led XOF from the shadows while speaking to Para-Medic and Sigint at the same time while speaking to Naked Snake? I dunno man, both are kind of hard to believe but TPP kind of introduced it's own plotholes in an attempt to fix the one you perceived as one. That's not really a plot hole at all though? He just forms XOF as a support unit to make sure Naked Snake succeeds. It's not like he's running some counter-operation against him. XOF is just a secret side-project to help make sure that FOX, the unit he is actually trying to justify to the CIA, proves its worth by completing the mission - it's basically a safety net in case Naked Snake can't cut it. He just didn't realize that the guy he hired to run XOF turned bitter and started harboring a grudge against him. It's kind of a bit different from Big Boss being in the US and training Foxhound while also being barricaded inside Outer Heaven in South Africa.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:46
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MGS5 should have ended with Venom Snake waking up in his bed and finding out that all the events leading up to that point were just a dream, and that Venom Snake was actually just a completely normal family man living in Delaware. Then he sighs in relief and falls asleep again and the screen slowly blurs back into the magical fantasy world of MGS.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:47
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Anime Schoolgirl posted:if you have a problem with people being critical with things they enjoy you'd probably break into hives if you read critical analysis of things generally accepted as classics I do, and generally, critical analysis comes from an informed position.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:47
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cargohills posted:MGSV's cutscenes are way better than previous games in the series because they're incredibly well directed, well acted and well paced. Even Snake Eater was painfully boring at points, like with the talk between LBJ and Kruschev. This is a joke right? MGS1 Example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CY8S2vYp9xg MGS2 Example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCUY6q8i3Yw MGS3 Example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-qKl-dpWbk MGS4 Example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLsDG_clBDY All thease are just one of many loving cool or crazy scenes from the game that had me extremely engaged. With MGS5 I got a pile of this one man on fire guy who literally just absorbs everything, says nothing and just walks at you. Did I miss something? Hell even Snake gets bored during the jeep ride and just looks off into the sunset as some guy who is zero threat rambles on about nothing you give a gently caress about and makes no sense. Minorkos posted:I think your points are fine but sadly there's too much anger at video games in this post Hey I just wanted my Metal Gear Solid Game and everyone is too busy sucking Hideo's crying dick to say anything angry about it. I always turn my anger up to 11 so this kind of thing happens easily. Im Sorry? Drinkfist fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Sep 7, 2015 |
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Sep 7, 2015 22:47
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Funky Valentine posted:The only truly canon parts of MG1 and MG2 are the stock footage seen in Ocelot's explanation of everything in MGS4. They can totally put footage of the final boss fight from Snake's Revenge into a future flashback montage someday just so that even if almost everything else about that game is non-canon, there's a chance now between MG1 and MG2 Solid Snake totally went on a mission in the Middle East where he fights an almost fully cybernetic Venom Snake.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:49
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Drinkfist posted:All thease are just one of many loving cool or crazy scenes from the game that had me extremely engaged. With MGS5 I got a pile of this one man on fire guy who literally just absorbs everything, says nothing and just walks at you. Did I miss something? Hell even Snake gets bored during the jeep ride and just looks off into the sunset as some guy who is zero threat rambles on about nothing you give a gently caress about and makes no sense. To be honest I recall a lot of cutscenes in the earlier games being painfully slow for no reason. Like two characters just staring at each other for like 10 seconds straight and then one of them climbs into an APC with a monkey and that whole process takes like a half a minute. I like that MGS5 cutscenes don't waste my time and have a lot more "show, don't tell" in them
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Sep 7, 2015 22:51
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Drinkfist posted:This is a joke right? Twin Snakes was not well directed, well acted or well paced.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:53
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:That's not really a plot hole at all though? He just forms XOF as a support unit to make sure Naked Snake succeeds. It's not like he's running some counter-operation against him. XOF is just a secret side-project to help make sure that FOX, the unit he is actually trying to justify to the CIA, proves its worth by completing the mission - it's basically a safety net in case Naked Snake can't cut it. He just didn't realize that the guy he hired to run XOF turned bitter and started harboring a grudge against him. FOXHOUND existed and operated just fine without Big Boss though. He formed it sometime before Peace Walker, left and then rejoined it later. Presumeably, Campbell was running FOXHOUND when Big Boss wasn't around while Miller trained Solid Snake and it's not completely implausible for him to manage affairs at Outer Heaven while also giving orders from FOXHOUND too, especially since FOXHOUND didn't really become public knowledge until after the events at Outer Heaven. Come to think of it, why would Miller even join FOXHOUND and train Snake if he grew to hate Big Boss so much? Was he just pretending to be nice to Big Boss the whole time? But then wouldn't Ocelot have told Big Boss that Miller was a dangerous wild card? But then why did Ocelot only act a few days before the Shadow Moses event? Point is, it's a complete clusterfuck of canon regardless if you take MGS V's twist into account or not. I'm honestly amazed Kojima just didn't straight up do a reboot after MGS 2. EDIT: Viewtiful Jew posted:They can totally put footage of the final boss fight from Snake's Revenge into a future flashback montage someday just so that even if almost everything else about that game is non-canon, there's a chance now between MG1 and MG2 Solid Snake totally went on a mission in the Middle East where he fights an almost fully cybernetic Venom Snake. Yeah, the funny thing about the twist is that Snake's Revenge could probably quite easily be canon, taking place inbetween MG 1 and 2. It wouldn't be too hard to do now.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:54
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 that was an answer to this right quote:if you have a problem with people being critical with things they enjoy because if so oh man you might have a major cognitive dissonance problem and that's not healthy
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Sep 7, 2015 22:54
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The single take cutscenes in TPP are really good and the game in general feels very cinematic. There are great cutscenes in other MGS games for sure, but very few of them have as much attention to the camerawork. MGS1 and 3 have probably the most consistently strong cutscenes, but all of TPPs are strong (the prologue itself is incredible) and anyone who thinks the cutscenes are bad is insane.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:58
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Funky Britches posted:Twin Snakes was not well directed, well acted or well paced. Twin Snakes was loving badass and hilarious. It is not a hideo kojima game because its a remake by the director ryuhei kitamura and should not be viewed as canon or anything. Its like a digital age chanbara flick.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:59
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the cutscenes are pretty much what i've expected from metal gear games and i fail to see how they're "worse" in execution & quality a lot of the problems i can see are mostly problems with starting a thousand plot threads and not having the foresight to stick with relatively few and trimming the others to keep development time and budget low.
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Sep 7, 2015 22:59
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Twin Snakes is the VR mission of Shadow Moses that Raiden goes through. At least that's what I tell myself.
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Sep 7, 2015 23:00
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Anime Schoolgirl posted:
No it was an answer to the suggestion that I don't read critical analysis of classic works. I phrased my response poorly I guess.
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Sep 7, 2015 23:00
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Funky Britches posted:Twin Snakes was not well directed, well acted or well paced. Neither was the original.
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Sep 7, 2015 23:01
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Mr. Fortitude posted:Twin Snakes is the VR mission of Shadow Moses that Raiden goes through. At least that's what I tell myself. I always liked the explanation that twin snakes was Otacon telling people the story of mgs1 in a bar several years later. The vr mission that trained raiden is literally supposed to be the video game mgs1 that we all played. Raiden is a player stand-in because he's always like "oh I know how this is supposed to go I played the last game/trained in the vr sim"
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Sep 7, 2015 23:01
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Twin Snakes is what Solid Snake tells himself is what happened on Shadow Moses. "Yeah, I totally did a frontflip while firing a chaingun mounted on a fast-moving jeep to dodge Liquid's bullets."
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Sep 7, 2015 23:02
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Funky Valentine posted:Twin Snakes is what Solid Snake tells himself is what happened on Shadow Moses. 
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Sep 7, 2015 23:03
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Anime Schoolgirl posted:Are you sure those aren't stories he's telling Sunny? "...and then there was this WOOOOSH jet sound and Grey Fox did like seven backflips in midair and then Uncle Hal pissed himself and..."
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Sep 7, 2015 23:04
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