|
AGirlWonder posted:Can ministers decline their ability (right?) to perform civil ceremonies?
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 19:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 03:33 |
|
|
AGirlWonder posted:Can ministers decline their ability (right?) to perform civil ceremonies? I have several friends who are ordained, and at least one of them has raised the possibility that he could be in legal trouble for refusing to conduct a same-sex ceremony. Their denomination will not allow SSM, and their personal interpretations of Scripture forbid it. If they are able, it'd probably be a good idea. In the US? The Federal Government would never bring a case against a pastor for refusing to marry a same-sex couples. Ecclesiastical courts are a different matter. Which denomination is your friend ordained in? I know PCUSA protects the right of the ordained to refuse to marry people for any reason. Not particularly sure about other denominations.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 20:08
|
|
|
The Phlegmatist posted:In the US? The Federal Government would never bring a case against a pastor for refusing to marry a same-sex couples. There's no constitutional right to be married in a church. Churches can and do refuse to perform the ceremony for many and varied reasons. A justice of the peace at the courthouse will handle the civil end of it if necessary.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 20:17
|
|
|
In the US, this the case. In Canada, as I mentioned before, any priest or pastor could be pursued in a human rights tribunal for refusing to marry a same-sex couple, so long as their tradition permitted it at all as it nullifies any religious defence so far as the tribunal is concerned.
|
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 22:42
|
|
|
Back when SSM wasn't legal nationwide, there were a few progressive pastors and churches that refused to do civil marriage paperwork in solidarity with same sex couples. The idea was that the nature of civil marriage at that time was discriminatory in their understanding of their faith, and filling out the paperwork would be a kind of consent to this discrimination. I think some denomination actually sued the government over this, but I don't remember the specifics.
Lutha Mahtin fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Sep 7, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 7, 2015 22:57
|
|
|
Lutha Mahtin posted:Back when SSM wasn't legal nationwide, there were a few progressive pastors and churches that refused to do civil marriage paperwork in solidarity with same sex couples. The idea was that the nature of civil marriage at that time was discriminatory in their understanding of their faith, and filling out the paperwork would be a kind of consent to this discrimination. I think some denomination actually sued the government over this, but I don't remember the specifics. Are you thinking of UCC vs North Carolina? NC's legislature hosed up really badly and passed a law threatening clergy with jail time if they solemnized marriage of same-sex couples. UCC brought a lawsuit against the state government and won under freedom of religion laws. And that's how North Carolina became the 28th state to legalize same-sex marriage!
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2015 00:02
|
|
|
The Phlegmatist posted:Are you thinking of UCC vs North Carolina? NC's legislature hosed up really badly and passed a law threatening clergy with jail time if they solemnized marriage of same-sex couples. UCC brought a lawsuit against the state government and won under freedom of religion laws. And that's how North Carolina became the 28th state to legalize same-sex marriage! talk about getting owned
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2015 03:34
|
|
|
The Phlegmatist posted:In the US? The Federal Government would never bring a case against a pastor for refusing to marry a same-sex couples. They are all ordained by the Assemblies of God, and all of them would lose their jobs if they performed a same-sex wedding. That being said, your posts have been comforting, and I will pass the info along!
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2015 04:05
|
|
|
HEY GAL posted:Yeah, all the time. Catholics won't let people who've been divorced get married again in the Catholic Church, for instance, while the Orthodox cap you at four divorces and are very leery about letting Orthodox marry non-Orthodox. This would be similar. Religions can do whatever they please with their members' marriages, unless it's something that's illegal in the US like underage or bigamy. In my experience, non-Orthodox are more leery of marrying Orthodox. I've seen couples break up after he or she see the divine liturgy hosed up when an Episcopalian calls an Orthodox an idolator
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2015 05:42
|
|
|
Smoking Crow posted:In my experience, non-Orthodox are more leery of marrying Orthodox. I've seen couples break up after he or she see the divine liturgy
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2015 10:02
|
|
|
HEY GAL posted:my ex discovered his mom was a bigot when i converted--out of nowhere she said "well at least she isn't Catholic any more" and things got awkward drat, didn't know Germans where THAT uptight on religion. I imagine everything west of Poland the Great Atheist Plain. On other matters, apparently unbaptised adults need to go to an RCC class for nine months which happens to take part at extremely inconvenient/impossible time for my schedule. Sigh.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2015 10:23
|
|
|
JcDent posted:drat, didn't know Germans where THAT uptight on religion. I imagine everything west of Poland the Great Atheist Plain.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2015 10:25
|
|
|
HEY GAL posted:My ex and his mom are american episcopalians, I'm not German I just live here sometimes My bad, I thought you stayed long enough to accrue an ex.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2015 10:36
|
|
|
So, how about that Papal decree on the annulment process? Thoughts?
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2015 13:09
|
|
|
As far as I can tell, the only substantial change will be the removal of cost for the petitioner. Which is good, though many dioceses already have a system in place to cover the cost for those people to whom it would be a burden to pay. Otherwise, the process takes forever because both sides have to be given plenty of time to speak their peace - 30 days to respond that you received a request for information, etc.
|
|
#
?
Sep 8, 2015 13:27
|
|
|
Well apparently evangelicals can break their oaths and literally get out of jail so no worries!
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 01:04
|
|
|
Yeah, I appreciate that some people's fear is genuine, but in America it's completely unwarranted. As A. E. Housman once said, "Three minutes' thought would suffice to find this out, but thought is irksome and three minutes is a long time."
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 04:29
|
|
|
Bel_Canto posted:Yeah, I appreciate that some people's fear is genuine, but in America it's completely unwarranted. As A. E. Housman once said, "Three minutes' thought would suffice to find this out, but thought is irksome and three minutes is a long time." Stealing this quote and using it unashamedly.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 17:04
|
|
|
Are general theological questions alright in this thread? I've been reading about the ancient Goths a lot lately for reasons and Arianism naturally pops up a lot in those discussions. The histories I've been reading focus on the doings of the Goths themselves and not the religious history of them, so while I understand that Arianism died out (because Arians died or converted out of political necessity), I don't know what the theological reasons for Arianism's death are, or why Nontrinitarianism is so objectionable to begin with. Basically I finally read about Arianism and nobody bothered to explain why it was theologically wrong, other than that the Romans had already established a position on the matter and Arius' wasn't it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 21:55
|
|
|
Ofaloaf posted:Basically I finally read about Arianism and nobody bothered to explain why it was theologically wrong, other than that the Romans had already established a position on the matter and Arius' wasn't it. Oversimplifying and paraphrasing St. Augustine a bit, if Jesus was not God, then there was no Redemption, and we are still in our sins.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 22:04
|
|
|
Worthleast posted:Oversimplifying and paraphrasing St. Augustine a bit, if Jesus was not God, then there was no Redemption, and we are still in our sins. I was raised Lutheran, but shortly after I was confirmed in the church my parents got involved in some church council politics and ended up leaving. That was well over a decade ago and our family never regularly went to any other church afterwards, so I only vaguely recall scraps of Sunday school as filtered through the brain of a child who probably wasn't paying attention half the time, and have otherwise been wholly without guide when it comes to theology.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 22:32
|
|
|
Ofaloaf posted:Does Jesus need to be of the same substance as God for the Redemption to be a thing? Yes, because humans cannot save themselves. They can only be saved through God's grace. quote:Why isn't being Son enough for Jesus to be Savior? A lower being would not have the power to save. Jesus has to be God for salvation to work correctly because no other being could do what he did. quote:Jesus is both God and human, but God Himself isn't human (right?), so Jesus must have qualities different from God, wouldn't He? Yes, the Three are distinct and unique. However, all Three are single in Will and Substance. Therefore, while they have qualities distinct from each other, they do, believe and move as One. This does not mean that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are less than the Father or vice-versa. All are equally God. To steal a quote from Thomas Hopko, "Thus it is said that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are each divine with the same divinity, yet each in his own divine way."
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 23:15
|
|
|
Ofaloaf posted:Does Jesus need to be of the same substance as God for the Redemption to be a thing? Why isn't being Son enough for Jesus to be Savior? Jesus is both God and human, but God Himself isn't human (right?), so Jesus must have qualities different from God, wouldn't He? You could develop a system of doctrine in which Jesus does not need to be divine, but I don't think it would be compatible with what people traditionally call Christianity. On the other hand, some Unitarians, Mormons, and Oneness Pentecostals claim they are legitimate, traditional Christians (or are restoring "correct" Christianity), even though more traditional varieties of Christianity might not agree with that.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 23:30
|
|
|
Ofaloaf posted:Are general theological questions alright in this thread? The problem, at lest as far as I am aware has less to do with the theology of redemption as such than it does with the unity of the New Testament; the anti-Arian literature that I am aware of talks less about salvation than it comes down to interpretation of certain passages in Scripture. You could build a more or less consistent subordinationist view out of Mark, Matthew and Luke, but John throws a wrench into the whole thing. The Arians are able to massage the declaration that "The Father and I are one" by saying that Jesus is referring to a oneness of intention, but the opening chapter is a harder bit to tackle - one more or less finds there the equation that God is the Logos, which is Christ. And if Christ is life eternal, he can't be created, because created would mean not eternal. It comes down to a hermeneutic conflict more than anything - which passages one favors and what interpretative strategies to adopt. Arianism is a powerful position, because philosophically, it makes a hell of a lot more sense than trinitarianism; the mystery gives way to logical organization. But if, as John as it, "through him (the Word) all things were made," then the Word can't be created, unless it somehow creates itself.
|
|
#
?
Sep 9, 2015 23:57
|
|
|
God is actually Rose Tyler.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2015 02:43
|
|
|
AGirlWonder posted:God is actually Rose Tyler. That's heresy that leads to getting punched by spontaneously animated mannequins.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2015 05:01
|
|
|
quote:That's heresy that leads to getting punched by spontaneously animated mannequins Didn't Arianism lead to Arius getting punched by Santa Claus / Saint Nick? I used to be a Catholic, now am mostly a Buddhist, would like to be a Catholic again because I like the liturgy / infrastructure. My interpretation of Christianity is basically reskinned Pure Land Buddhism and I think the pope is not ok with that. Also I want women priests. What should I do, thread? I know Orthodoxy / Old Catholics are much closer to what I believe, but they don't have many churches anywhere near where I live, or, in the case of Old Catholics, anywhere at all.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2015 06:59
|
|
|
Ofaloaf posted:I've been reading about the ancient Goths a lot lately for reasons Loving your reasons, by the way. Too bad Arianism didn't survive there. 
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2015 07:50
|
|
|
pidan posted:I used to be a Catholic, now am mostly a Buddhist, would like to be a Catholic again because I like the liturgy / infrastructure. My interpretation of Christianity is basically reskinned Pure Land Buddhism and I think the pope is not ok with that. Also I want women priests. What should I do, thread? and if you like the liturgy, you're going to be looking at, uh, a more niche kind of catholic anyway, and that can be hard to find as well, I took the subway for an hour to get to a Mass in the meeting room of a club for retired naval personnel back when I was a trad catholic. edit: Old Catholics are kind of a central european thing.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2015 10:51
|
|
|
pidan posted:What should I do, thread? Do what everyone does, and start your own branch of church. Name it cybercatcholics or Rocket Children of Christ. We're all traitors,
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2015 11:00
|
|
|
JcDent posted:
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2015 11:02
|
|
|
JcDent posted:We're all... heretics in this thread anyways. I always used to tell my Catholic friends, we're all heretics, the fun is figuring out which kind you are. I have to thank Numerical Anxiety for pointing me to my second major heresy (both by mistake).
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2015 12:37
|
|
|
HEY GAL posted:high church anglicans Either they or Episcopalians might have the kind of environment you're looking for. Yay, women priests 
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2015 14:04
|
|
|
pidan posted:I used to be a Catholic, now am mostly a Buddhist, would like to be a Catholic again because I like the liturgy / infrastructure. My interpretation of Christianity is basically reskinned Pure Land Buddhism and I think the pope is not ok with that. Also I want women priests. What should I do, thread? become a mainline Protestant  or a unitarian 
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2015 14:09
|
|
|
pidan posted:Didn't Arianism lead to Arius getting punched by Santa Claus / Saint Nick? Are you sure it's worth it to convert back (assuming you've officially abandoned the Church)? You can visit pretty much any church whenever you want without converting, you know. Even participate in parish's life, if you so desire. Unrelated 
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2015 14:35
|
|
|
Is that Freud at the bottom? 
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2015 16:08
|
|
|
Who else would be carrying a cigar with a scrotum in his right hand?
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2015 16:53
|
|
|
Numerical Anxiety posted:Who else would be carrying a cigar with a scrotum in his right hand? It's a retort and he represents a generic scientist, but I like "cigar with a scrotum" better.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2015 16:59
|
|
|
pidan posted:Didn't Arianism lead to Arius getting punched by Santa Claus / Saint Nick? Would you mind telling us your location, as much as you're comfortable sharing? That might help the thread recommend denominations or even congregations to check out. It sounds like you are looking for a more progressive church with traditional liturgy and ritual, and as others have suggested I think your best bet would be mainstream Protestant churches. Anglicans/Episcopalians are usually the most "high church" of the bunch and I think you'd find services very similar to Catholic ones. You may also be able to find more traditional Lutheran or Methodist services that scratch your itch, but those are going to be harder to find. Apparently high church Lutheranism is a big thing in Europe, though? All the mainstream Protestant denominations are very similar in terms of theology, I'd suggest checking a couple out even if it wasn't an option you'd considered. Edit: one of Marty L's big beefs with the Catholic Church was having scripture and services in the vernacular, hence the story of him hiding out in Wartburg Castle while he translated the Bible into German. Which is to say it's really unlikely you'll find much Protestant liturgy in Latin or Greek etc if you enjoy that aspect. Some Latin in the most high church services, and maybe some hymns in German at Lutheran churches. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Sep 10, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2015 17:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 9, 2024 03:33 |
|
|
pidan posted:Didn't Arianism lead to Arius getting punched by Santa Claus / Saint Nick? Since nobody answered this, my former chaplain was under the impression that the Saint Nicolas that open-hand slapped Arius (actually a significant difference, as an open-hand slap was a sign of reproach rather than assault and battery, at least that's the word on the street at my alma mater) and the Saint Nicolas that was super good with kids are two different folks.
|
|
#
?
Sep 10, 2015 19:32
|
|