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Sep 8, 2015 08:50
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Argas posted:I feel that for all the hate FFXIV gets for content gating, at least forcing people to do dungeons preps them a bit better compared to WoW where you can never touch any group content and jump into LFR. Also the fact that it's 8-man content so it's far easier to see if you're contributing or not. It actively obfuscates exactly how well everyone is doing so nobody's feelings get hurt. It is really hard to work out if you are actually contributing or not.
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Sep 8, 2015 08:58
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Byolante posted:It actively obfuscates exactly how well everyone is doing so nobody's feelings get hurt. It is really hard to work out if you are actually contributing or not. Thank god this conversation hasn't died yet.
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Sep 8, 2015 09:06
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Byolante posted:It actively obfuscates exactly how well everyone is doing so nobody's feelings get hurt. It is really hard to work out if you are actually contributing or not. Yea they can probably do a better job of that, but everyone just uses meters anyway.
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Sep 8, 2015 09:11
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It's obviously not a hard or accurate gauge of how much you're contributing but the little aggro meter in the party HUD is an easy comparison tool.
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Sep 8, 2015 09:13
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You can also just run ACT and not talk about it. Or if you're in a static someone else will have it and tell you what it says over voice comms. That's 99% of the issues people have with no metrics officially in game taken care of, so the only thing left is because you want to be able to bitch someone else out for not pulling their weight.
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Sep 8, 2015 09:19
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:You're actually verifiably wrong about that. Or you could do whatever weird forum pvp you're trying to do instead of showing me whatever data you have like a normal person would I guess, that's ok too Niton posted:I don't have WoW's statistics available, but let me back you up on that for FFXIV: "at any given time" seems to be a difficult concept but okay I guess  Bracing for more debate team jargon over here Flesh Forge fucked around with this message at 09:29 on Sep 8, 2015 |
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Sep 8, 2015 09:24
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So you're talking about the percentage of the playerbase that is actually raiding at the same exact time? Wow, that is an interesting (i.e. utterly pointless) statistic.
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Sep 8, 2015 09:33
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Flesh Forge posted:Or you could do whatever weird forum pvp you're trying to do instead of showing me whatever data you have like a normal person would I guess, that's ok too If you actually gave a poo poo you'd be able to google that answer in about 4 seconds, and I don't actually give a poo poo if someone thinks I won a debate on the internet. I do this for the entertainment, man. I do like the ad hominem instead of no true scotsman, though.
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Sep 8, 2015 09:44
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Martman posted:So you're talking about the percentage of the playerbase that is actually raiding at the same exact time? Wow, that is an interesting (i.e. utterly pointless) statistic. I think he is getting at '% of the playerbase that clears the content in a given week' not a guy once got carried through because he paid a static for a weapon.
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Sep 8, 2015 10:52
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Maybe this is a weird viewpoint, but I like really hard content that I might never clear before nerfs. Why else would you run dungeons and try to get better stuff? If you can just breeze through everything, then there is no reason to keep playing, unless the content is really that much fun. However I've never played an MMO where that is true. As long as there is plenty of stuff for 'average' players to do, I don't have an issue with super hard stuff, as it gives me an end goal. Without that kind of punishing raid content, what is the point of making the numbers go up at all? If everything is super easy, why even log on to push the buttons?
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Sep 8, 2015 10:59
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Byolante posted:I think he is getting at '% of the playerbase that clears the content in a given week' not a guy once got carried through because he paid a static for a weapon. Peole pay for LFR and Alex normal runs!?
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Sep 8, 2015 11:07
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Argas posted:I feel that for all the hate FFXIV gets for content gating, at least forcing people to do dungeons preps them a bit better compared to WoW where you can never touch any group content and jump into LFR. Also the fact that it's 8-man content so it's far easier to see if you're contributing or not. The other problem with WOW is that any PvE content before (max-10) level has been extremely trivialized. So even if you have participated to quite a lot of dungeons before high level content, you still don't know what you are supposed to do in a group
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Sep 8, 2015 11:47
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Cao Ni Ma posted:Peole pay for LFR and Alex normal runs!? The day Alex Normal launched I saw a guy shouting in Hinterlands that he was paying something like 1m per floor if a group cleared it for him. He hadn't even tried it, from the questions someone asked him, he just..wanted to get carried through very easy content.
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Sep 8, 2015 12:02
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:You can also just run ACT and not talk about it. Nah..... I want metrics and boss mods so SE can design more interesting fights then "PASS THIS DEBUFF 30 TIMES TO OTHER PEOPLE OR YOU DIE". Look at A3s and A4s, the reason they are hard is because they poo poo out a ton of damage and require a tight dps check alongside having to pass a stupid debuff. I guess for HW our new "dive bomb" will be pass the debuff. If I wanted all my fights to have proffesor putricides curse mechanic I'd go kill that boss over and over. If we had the abilty to setup timers and such in the game then the devs could build more interesting fights. You know your raid content is broken when a guild out right ignores some of the mechanics. Look at A4s from Lucrecia, they basically sacrifice people over and over on the add part because they need the dps for the boss. Can't say I have seen any recent WoW end bosses where guilds just ignore a mechanic to get it done. And what is wrong with being able to tell that bard doing 300 dps on normal A1 that he is doing 300 dps and causing us to wipe? Being ignorant of your performance doesn't make a game better. Show me on the doll where the mean pubbie made fun of your dps in WoW.
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Sep 8, 2015 14:15
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kirbysuperstar posted:The day Alex Normal launched I saw a guy shouting in Hinterlands that he was paying something like 1m per floor if a group cleared it for him. He hadn't even tried it, from the questions someone asked him, he just..wanted to get carried through very easy content. tbh if you're a ffxiv auction baron and you already finished your crafting professions then you might as well buy all the clears because what else are you going to spend your riches on
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Sep 8, 2015 14:27
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Mantees posted:The other problem with WOW is that any PvE content before (max-10) level has been extremely trivialized. So even if you have participated to quite a lot of dungeons before high level content, you still don't know what you are supposed to do in a group I'd always wonder if people who were doing really badly were just not paying attention - watching a TV show or something - or really hadn't got a clue what they were doing. In eq2 we went into a dungeon with a person playing the highest damage class against large groups, a dungeon that was almost entirely large groups. You could see them casting but the amount of damage they did was absolutely tiny. That said EQ2 made you actually BUY your skills post level 50 so perhaps they'd just let it get to their level 50 spot and then never upgraded it. The game was pretty poo poo at telling you how it all worked. Plus some people would get really annoyed if you told them they'd missed a skill out or whatever. I guess if they cared they'd have looked it up already.
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Sep 8, 2015 14:28
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I heard wildstar had a ten day trial should I download it? Will it help me yell about a different anime game in this thread?
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Sep 8, 2015 14:32
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Getting pretty tempted to create a "Tired Old MMO Arguments: Eternal Battleground Quarantine" thread.Byolante posted:Diablo 3 says hi! I do like Diablo III, or at least I like the baseline gameplay of it. I just want to cut out all semblance of repetitive, lovely grinding from it. A "PvE MOBA" probably isn't the solution but it's fun to think about. A game like Diablo III only you pick a character every time you enter a dungeon with a handful of other players, and you all start at level 1 every time and level up, get items, and build your skills as you go through a single 30-45 minute dungeon run. It's progression super-condensed and without a need for long-term grinding and awfulness. Or, like, it could be like Dragon Age: Inquisition multiplayer, but again without the long-term unlock structure going on. SerCypher posted:As long as there is plenty of stuff for 'average' players to do, I don't have an issue with super hard stuff, as it gives me an end goal. Ultimately I agree, but I've also come to understand that it's a pretty minority opinion, and that there's value gained from having a "normal mode" to go with the "hard mode." Normal players are more accepting of the "elite" content being there, I think, if they can go experience some version of it that is also fun and rewarding in its own way. The trap to avoid falling into is making the "normal/casual/easy mode" be a prerequisite for the "hard mode." Just let players jump right into whichever mode they prefer right off the bat. ArenaNet aren't doing this, but it would be really cool if they used their dynamic event scaling system to implement flex raiding in GW2. Have a flex mode of the raid that offers plenty of rewards (maybe not the legendary armor, just to keep the elites happy), and then a "hard mode" that is locked at 10 players and is intended to be the mode for people who really want a big challenge. Having a "flex" mode also lets people practice on a potentially less-frustrating version of the raid before graduating up to the big leagues if they want to. And the lack of gear progression means that you won't feel obligated to do "flex" mode to gear up before doing "hard" mode. (The reason they aren't doing this is because they probably believe that their raid will already be pretty accessible, because it won't require an attunement or any sort of gear treadmill progression--you can just waltz right in with your friends and see how hard it is yourself. But it definitely will be too hard for a lot of players, at least right when it releases. It might get nerfed or it might just be like dungeons, which were considered super hard early on but eventually knowledge of how to do them spread through the community enough that they're routinely PUGed these days.)
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Sep 8, 2015 14:33
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Harrow posted:I do like Diablo III, or at least I like the baseline gameplay of it. I just want to cut out all semblance of repetitive, lovely grinding from it. A "PvE MOBA" probably isn't the solution but it's fun to think about. A game like Diablo III only you pick a character every time you enter a dungeon with a handful of other players, and you all start at level 1 every time and level up, get items, and build your skills as you go through a single 30-45 minute dungeon run. It's progression super-condensed and without a need for long-term grinding and awfulness. I would definitely play this.
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Sep 8, 2015 14:40
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Harrow posted:Getting pretty tempted to create a "Tired Old MMO Arguments: Eternal Battleground Quarantine" thread. If that's what you want you could check out The Red Solstice on Steam. It's pretty much this but it's also in space and futuristic so YMMV.
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Sep 8, 2015 14:48
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Morglon posted:If that's what you want you could check out The Red Solstice on Steam. It's pretty much this but it's also in space and futuristic so YMMV. I would definitely play this. Wait, hang on, I already own this. I have played it for at least 7 minutes. Goddamnit what the gently caress
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Sep 8, 2015 14:54
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SerCypher posted:Maybe this is a weird viewpoint, but I like really hard content that I might never clear before nerfs. Gonna quote because this post is cool and has right opinions.
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Sep 8, 2015 14:59
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Morglon posted:If that's what you want you could check out The Red Solstice on Steam. It's pretty much this but it's also in space and futuristic so YMMV. I suspected something like that might already exist. I'll definitely check that out!
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Sep 8, 2015 15:04
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SerCypher posted:Maybe this is a weird viewpoint, but I like really hard content that I might never clear before nerfs. For me, MMOs are a distraction. I explore, play dress-up, make things fall down, and giggle at drama. I've been playing them off and on since they ghettoized UO's PK population, and have realized that I don't want to put an effort into it. Hard bosses and raid content require precisely the kind of repetition that makes me step back and ask what the hell I'm doing.
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Sep 8, 2015 15:37
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Byolante posted:I think he is getting at '% of the playerbase that clears the content in a given week' not a guy once got carried through because he paid a static for a weapon. I actually did mean the former (if a thing is fun rather than necessary then yes it is reasonable that a bunch of random people will be doing the fun thing all the goddamn time, every day) but okay There have been other MMOs in which for reals, a lot of people people did do the raid content all the time, although it was restricted to subscribers (COH) because they had a dumb F2P model. Now they're dead so welp  Niton posted:This is as of the 21st, so 2 weeks and some change ago. Even being very liberal with active sub numbers, there's no way that's lower than 20%. Do note that this number is cleared rather than entered, as the picture says. Because I got annoyed at dumb junior debate team guy (sorry about the ~ad homimem~ buddy!!) I neglected to harp on this. Some 20% bothered to do this awesome important very-fun raid poo poo even one time in this sample set. Literally zero people have ever done it in hard mode more than three times. : put another way, if I was a game designer and my name was on any drat thing that zero people were doing I'd see it as a personal failure Flesh Forge fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Sep 8, 2015 |
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Sep 8, 2015 15:53
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Flesh Forge posted:Because I got annoyed at dumb junior debate team guy (sorry about the ~ad homimem~ buddy!!) I neglected to harp on this. Some 20% bothered to do this awesome important very-fun raid poo poo even one time in this sample set. Literally zero people have ever done it in hard mode more than three times. That "zero" number has changed now that a few groups have cleared Alexander 4 Savage. That number wasn't "nobody is doing this," it's "nobody has completed this yet." Now they have. That picture is basically a "how are players progressing through Alexander right now?" check, not an "are players doing Alexander?" check. And yeah, the Savage difficulty is intended for only the most "serious" of the raiding community. It's not surprising that a minority of players are even attempting it--normal mode is enough for them. It's also worth noting that FFXIV tends to have two major paths of raid progression. There are 8-player raids that are generally harder (Binding Coil of Bahamut in the base game, Alexander in the expansion), and a 24-player raid that can generally be done by a pick-up group (Crystal Tower before the expansion, and now Void Ark in the upcoming patch). You basically have stuff to do at endgame for players who want to raid regardless of their skill level, and both are regularly updated. If you don't want to have to deal with really tough mechanics and a hard raid? Do the 24-man, which you can queue for solo or in a group. It's basically LFR. If you're up for a challenge but not a super-hard, race-for-world-first challenge, do the 8-man raid in normal mode. If you're one of the poopsocking race-for-world-first people, you've got the savage modes to do. And if you don't want to raid at all, FFXIV actually regularly adds new normal dungeons and hard modes of previous dungeons. (It's also worth mentioning that FFXIV might not be the best example here, because it's an MMO that has positioned itself as being about PvE and really only PvE. A larger-than-average proportion of the playerbase are going to get into the various raids just because the people who would never be interested in that probably aren't playing the game in the first place.)
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Sep 8, 2015 16:01
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Flesh Forge posted:I actually did mean the former (if a thing is fun rather than necessary then yes it is reasonable that a bunch of random people will be doing the fun thing all the goddamn time, every day) but okay How many people actually fight the last boss version of bowser and rescue princess peach? Clearly they should make that far easier because it's blocking people from being able to do it. You'll never win the argument with these types of goons. They are trying to force the single player game experience into a MMO which doesn't work. Holyshoot fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Sep 8, 2015 |
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Sep 8, 2015 16:02
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Flesh Forge posted:Because I got annoyed at dumb junior debate team guy (sorry about the ~ad homimem~ buddy!!) I neglected to harp on this. Just hate-gently caress already.
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Sep 8, 2015 16:09
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SerCypher posted:Why else would you run dungeons and try to get better stuff? If you can just breeze through everything, then there is no reason to keep playing, unless the content is really that much fun. However I've never played an MMO where that is true. It is sad that yes, people have surrendered the idea that "the content should be fun" and have settled for "at least it will make my numbers go up"
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Sep 8, 2015 16:14
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Holyshoot posted:How many people actually fight the last boss version of bowser and rescue princess peach? Clearly they should make that far easier because it's blocking people from being able to do it. Probably more than zero people have done it in history
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Sep 8, 2015 16:14
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Flesh Forge posted:Probably more than zero people have done it in history Holy poo poo, I finally understand. You're the guy who was posting that Ulduar and Icecrown Citadel were massive failures of raids when no one had full cleared them 3 weeks after the final boss unlocked. Jesus christ.
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Sep 8, 2015 16:18
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Flesh Forge posted:Probably more than zero people have done it in history Because princess peach was saved day 1 of Mario being released(or insert end boss of any single player game here).  Flesh Forge posted:It is sad that yes, people have surrendered the idea that "the content should be fun" and have settled for "at least it will make my numbers go up" There are people who have fun making their numbers go up regardless of how they get to those numbers. What's wrong with that?
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Sep 8, 2015 16:19
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Niton posted:Holy poo poo, I finally understand. So he's just a lovely troll then. Got it. Back to wildstar. Games awful and F2P won't save it.
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Sep 8, 2015 16:21
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Flesh Forge posted:Probably more than zero people have done it in history People have done Alexander Savage 4 now. That picture was showing how many people had successfully completed it at that time, not how many people had ever attempted it and ever will attempt it. People have done it now and that number will only go up--but also, it's a hard mode of something that has a normal mode that normal players can also do.
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Sep 8, 2015 16:22
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A goon was even part of the world first!
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Sep 8, 2015 16:23
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Harrow posted:That "zero" number has changed now that a few groups have cleared Alexander 4 Savage. That number wasn't "nobody is doing this," it's "nobody has completed this yet." Now they have. That picture is basically a "how are players progressing through Alexander right now?" check, not an "are players doing Alexander?" check. Thanks for providing context that nobody else thought was necessary because everyone's got their heads so far up into FFwhatever's rear end in a top hat, I appreciate it. Back to square one (I'm still pretty sure less than 2-3% of the playerbase in any given MMO is doing the uber hard raid content at any given time because it's terribly unfun). Y'all can get mad at me for observing the emperor has no clothes though, that's to be expected I guess. Harrow posted:People have done Alexander Savage 4 now. That picture was showing how many people had successfully completed it at that time, not how many people had ever attempted it and ever will attempt it. People have done it now and that number will only go up--but also, it's a hard mode of something that has a normal mode that normal players can also do. Yeah thanks for explaining that, it was kind of a non sequitur (SEE WHAT I DID THERE WITH MY DEBATE JARGON WHOA GUYS) with respect to how the conversation had been going. I appreciate at least one person talking like an ordinary human being. Flesh Forge fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Sep 8, 2015 |
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Sep 8, 2015 16:24
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You never did answer me if you though your train of thought should apply to all games. I mean do you even go to steam and see the achievements and go "Hey that cheevo has only been unlocked by .8% of the people thats terrible and unjust" Cao Ni Ma fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Sep 8, 2015 |
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Sep 8, 2015 16:26
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Flesh Forge posted:Thanks for providing context that nobody else thought was necessary because everyone's got their heads so far up into FFwhatever's rear end in a top hat, I appreciate it. Back to square one (I'm still pretty sure less than 2-3% of the playerbase in any given MMO is doing the uber hard raid content at any given time because it's terribly unfun). Y'all can get mad at me for observing the emperor has no clothes though, that's to be expected I guess. sir, this is a mcdonald's drive-thru
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Sep 8, 2015 16:29
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Flesh Forge posted:Thanks for providing context that nobody else thought was necessary because everyone's got their heads so far up into FFwhatever's rear end in a top hat, I appreciate it. Back to square one (I'm still pretty sure less than 2-3% of the playerbase in any given MMO is doing the uber hard raid content at any given time because it's terribly unfun). Y'all can get mad at me for observing the emperor has no clothes though, that's to be expected I guess. I guess the thing is that some people do find it fun. And when it's a hard mode of an existing raid, it doesn't require the same amount of development time as a new dungeon/raid would (it doesn't require new assets, for example), so including it really is just a net win. There's no real reason to resent the inclusion of savage modes (if one is an FFXIV player), because either you're the kind of person who's all about doing those (so you're happy they're there), or you can just do the normal modes of the same dungeon, which are tuned much closer to something that would be fun for the average player, and the savage mode never has to affect you at all. Maybe my point is: FFXIV, for all its faults (and for the record, I don't play it because I don't find the base game itself fun to play), is a good example of how "there is ample content for all skill levels" doesn't have to mean "all content is tuned to be doable by all skill levels." My main concern with MMOs isn't that all content should be accessible by all skill levels, but rather than grinding is lovely and nobody likes it and more MMOs need to find ways to limit it. That's a much harder question to answer, though. (My personal solution would be to sharply limit how many times you have to complete a given dungeon to get all its rewards, then offer Halo-style skulls or Bastion-style idols to let you tweak the difficulty and introduce variations while also unlocking new rewards. You still reuse the same assets, but you make sure it's at least a little bit fresh each time, so it doesn't feel like grinding anymore.)
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Sep 8, 2015 16:30
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