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The Bible posted:Had it been written for TOS, it would be among the best 5 episodes and highly praised. Agreed but only if it had an extra schap that contained a brief fistfight in the California desert.
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Sep 8, 2015 02:16
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The Bible posted:That's how bad TOS is. Unwatchable garbage. To be fair, TOS could probably be rated more a garbage scow.
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Sep 8, 2015 02:26
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JediTalentAgent posted:To be fair, TOS could probably be rated more a garbage scow. I meant to say, it should be hauled away AS aaaaauuuiiiggggggghhhh
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Sep 8, 2015 02:29
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 kira is having none of this allamaraine poo poo
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Sep 8, 2015 02:37
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Seriously, with the rhymes and the triangular doors and poo poo, how is that anything but an homage to TOS?
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Sep 8, 2015 03:01
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Where does everybody stand on the Tuvix question? Would you kill Transporter Obama?
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Sep 8, 2015 04:23
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As a crewman I'd be so sick of Neelix and so tired of Tuvok's rule minding that I'd beg to keep Tuvix. As a captain I'd lament the loss of the chance to jettison Neelix into a star and would change them back. As a viewer I'd want whatever makes Kes unhappy and pushes her to leave the ship.
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Sep 8, 2015 04:36
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FrensaGeran posted:Where does everybody stand on the Tuvix question? Would you kill Transporter Obama? Didn't Tuvix have all of Tuvok and Neelix's memories and skills? If so, there's no real practical reason to split him up again, especially since all the important stuff is in the Tuvok half and Neelix is useless, or would become useless the moment they travelled far enough away from his space. Tuvix could've continued Tuvok's job just fine probably. Neelix could've choked on a dinner roll and died the day before the accident and it would've made no difference. Also, the morale hit of killing Tuvix seemed way higher than not getting Tuvok and Neelix back would've been. If it was just a matter of Janeway wanting her buddy back, I'd get it, but I don't remember the episode really dealing with that. It probably would've been a much better moral quandary episode if Tuvix had been a blank slate they had to raise and retrain from scratch, rather than a direct combination of those two dudes with all their poo poo intact. Then the issue would've been "hey, do we kill this guy who's basically an innocent man-child so we can get our way more useful officers back, or do we let him live and pray that Harry Kim can handle Tuvok's job?"
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Sep 8, 2015 07:10
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Tuvix was a freak of nature and not how God intended life to live. This is also why gays are banned on voyager (you never see any do you?) and so are abortions. Janeway was actually really religious, in one of the cut scenes she mentions how one of her heroes was arrested in the 21st century for standing up to a law forcing her to let gay people marry.
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Sep 8, 2015 08:12
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Also that one bad guy alien race got the Phage because they were sinful and let gays marry.
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Sep 8, 2015 08:13
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Kitchner posted:Janeway was actually really religious The only MORAL violation of the Prime Directive is MY violation of the Prime Directive
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Sep 8, 2015 08:19
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Janeway insisted on Gelpacks instead of isolinear chips because the chips were a little too gay for her liking, like having a Men's Choir on board running her systems. She wouldn't tolerate it. Also, why do you think she was in such a hurry to get out of 1990's Los Angeles that one time.
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Sep 8, 2015 08:21
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Delsaber posted:Didn't Tuvix have all of Tuvok and Neelix's memories and skills? If so, there's no real practical reason to split him up again, especially since all the important stuff is in the Tuvok half and Neelix is useless, or would become useless the moment they travelled far enough away from his space. Tuvix could've continued Tuvok's job just fine probably. Neelix could've choked on a dinner roll and died the day before the accident and it would've made no difference. The quandary wasn't really about their usefulness... more about their right to exist.
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Sep 8, 2015 08:26
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I figured they were still in there somewhere, but I might be mistaking it for the Curzon-Odo thing.
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Sep 8, 2015 08:30
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The basic moral question asked was an even less difficult version of the old train track dilemma, wherein you see a train coming that will kill 10 people, but you're near the rail switch that will veer the train toward 5 people. But in this case the train (transporter accident) already killed the 10 (Tuvok and Neelix) and by some magic you're asked if you'd force the 5 living people (Tuvix) to kill themselves so the 10 dead people can live again. To do so is morally repugnant and Janeway is evil.
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Sep 8, 2015 09:02
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Tuvix was better at Tuvok's job than Tuvok though. He was probably also better at whatever it is Kneelix does than Kneelix too.
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Sep 8, 2015 15:28
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The Bible posted:Had it been written for TOS, it would be among the best 5 episodes and highly praised. please don't troll
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Sep 8, 2015 15:57
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tuvix was unambiguously murdered and the entire bridge crew are collectively responsible
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Sep 8, 2015 17:12
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:please don't troll He is right though. If Move Along Home had been shot in the 60s it would have been seen as a groundbreaking piece of TV and one of the best parts of the series. Instead now we consider it garbage.
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Sep 8, 2015 17:50
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remember when tuvix went around to his friends one by one and made an impassioned plea for even one of them to, just, say, "captain this is hosed up and not ok", thats all he was asking for. from the people he'd come to rely on and trust and care for in the weeks/months since being created, and the people who cared about him. tuvix very explicitly saying "this is murder, please dont murder me, i love and care and feel and have a right to exist" and not a single person would budge from "sorry dude we gotta murder ya, for reasons" and especially when their unanimous act of murder flew in the face of every single precedent-setting star trek episode irt the rights of "sentient but of-ambiguous-provenance beings". like, remember those worker robot-drone things in TNG that data discovered to be sentient? how picard immediately forbade their use for dangerous labour once that was discovered + went way out of his way to protect them when they were in danger? one will note that picard inexplicably did not go "yeah theyre sentient but whatever dude we need those minerals" its actually kind of incredible that theres any moral ambiguity in this episodes interpretation at all Ambrose Burnside fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Sep 8, 2015 |
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Sep 8, 2015 18:00
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weird how voyager was actually the darkest of all the series
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Sep 8, 2015 18:05
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thats why when some fuckin technology makes a life you fuckin kncok it out, you drug it immediately and you DO NOT TALK TO IT so when it comes time to murder it to fix the terrible godlike mistake made by your people mover magic device youre killing a thing that doesnt remember poo poo and cant feel poo poo
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Sep 8, 2015 18:05
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So I just saw "Doctor Bashir, I Presume?" and I can certainly see that it's a pretty weak episode. It raises a lot of interesting implications--I thought it made no sense for the Federation to be against genetic enhancements until they mentioned the Eugenics War; then I thought it made no sense for Bashir not to be disintigrated on the spot and two years in cushy Federation prison on Earth sounds like a slap on the wrist for doing what amounts to rolling a dice on whether you're going to make Super Hitler or not. Still, if this is all they do with it and kind of let the fact that he's a genetic super human (which, again, feels like it would be par the course in Trek's universe) slide, it won't really ruin much else. The big problem was, this adds an unneeded wrinkle to Bashir's character right at the point where it feels like he's found his own feet and his own voice. It implies a sort of psychological instability that could be interesting, but unless they intend to make Bashir go villainous in the last season, it all seems forced and needless. The B-plot about Rom stealing the huge titty Dabo girl from Voyager's Doctor was a little better. Also, what kind of tone did they want this episode to have? It's played quite straight and serious, but features the most cartoonish possible circumstances in which Bashir's parents stupidly reveal their super serious crime.
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Sep 8, 2015 18:12
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Kitchner posted:He is right though. If Move Along Home had been shot in the 60s it would have been seen as a groundbreaking piece of TV and one of the best parts of the series. Well yeah, but that's because a black dude is the lead actor, all women in it are wearing pants and the midget is seen outside of circus.
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Sep 8, 2015 18:12
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Disco Infiva posted:Well yeah, but that's because a black dude is the lead actor, all women in it are wearing pants and the midget is seen outside of circus. Even without those things it still applies. Slap Kirk, McCoy, and Scotty in am a parent life or death game being played by Mr Spock. The game progresses as Spock makes the ultimate logical super intelligent moves. His last move is to seemingly risk killing the whole party by going the really risky route because he calculates that it actually poses the leas risk. You think the main crew all dies because of Spock's God drat logic and then poof it was just a game. There's some sort of moral lesson everyone reflects on in the end and some banter between Spock and McCoy and end of episode.
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Sep 8, 2015 19:51
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I don't know why people endlessly lose their poo poo about Tuvix. Through your inaction two sentient beings are unable to exist again, why does that mean absolutely nothing, while this dude in front of you does? What if Tuvok and Neelix were there begging for their lives instead, would it be different? Wasn't there an episode were moody klingon got split into two parts, and eventually got put back together again, was that cold blooded murder too?
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Sep 8, 2015 20:28
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Premeditated murder of an innocent person is wrong? And asking "what if Neelix and Tuvok were alive and begging for help" is asking "if the situation were different, would the situation be different?" Well yeah okay sure. And you can't make a pragmatic argument either because Tuvix was fully capable doing Tuvok's job. Nothing was gained from murdering him other than the status quo.
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Sep 8, 2015 20:47
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I know I'm referring to my own post here but: drat it Spock, I'm a Doctor, not a chess pawn! You are correct doctor. For you were not, in fact, in a chess game. Kirk laughs and McCoy looks mad, Spock raises and eye brow, cut to credits.
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Sep 8, 2015 20:50
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I think the fact that people will argue until they're blue in the face about whether killing Tuvix was right or wrong proves that it was in fact a good episode.
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Sep 8, 2015 21:01
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tuvix was an amalgam of the most annoying character on the show and a close runner-up, how could you possibly want that thing around
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Sep 8, 2015 21:05
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counterfeitsaint posted:I don't know why people endlessly lose their poo poo about Tuvix. Through your inaction two sentient beings are unable to exist again, why does that mean absolutely nothing, while this dude in front of you does?
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Sep 8, 2015 21:12
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The point is beings that existed will no longer exist, no matter what decision is made, why is the one I front of you more important than the two that are unable to plead for their life, even though they most certainly would if they could
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Sep 8, 2015 21:12
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i guess this really depends on your opinion of abortion
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Sep 8, 2015 21:16
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counterfeitsaint posted:The point is beings that existed will no longer exist, no matter what decision is made, why is the one I front of you more important than the two that are unable to plead for their life, even though they most certainly would if they could 2 > 1
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Sep 8, 2015 21:20
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counterfeitsaint posted:The point is beings that existed will no longer exist, no matter what decision is made, why is the one I front of you more important than the two that are unable to plead for their life, even though they most certainly would if they could Because the one in front of you is the one in front of you. You service the patient, not the possibilities. The Doctor literally couldn't do it because it switched on his "This is evil" trigger.
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Sep 8, 2015 21:34
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"The needs of the Tuvok and Neelix outweigh the needs of the Tuvix" - Spock
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Sep 8, 2015 21:48
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fun fact spice girls had a song about the tuvix episode
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Sep 8, 2015 21:49
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FrensaGeran posted:Because the one in front of you is the one in front of you. You service the patient, not the possibilities. The Doctor literally couldn't do it because it switched on his "This is evil" trigger. He was the doctor's patient, and he makes sense he would refuse because his responsibility is to his current patient. Janeway's responsibility is to the ship not Tuvix.
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Sep 8, 2015 22:11
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Was it just a possibility? I thought it was a sure thing, and it basically boiled down to push A for Tuvix, push B for the other two.
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Sep 8, 2015 22:16
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Cry Havoc posted:fun fact spice girls had a song about the tuvix episode TLC's "Waterfalls" warns us against chasing after the waterfall that is Tuvix, and encourages appreciation of the rivers/Tuvoks and lakes/Neelixes that we already have.
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Sep 8, 2015 22:16
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