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Cao Ni Ma posted:You never did answer me if you though your train of thought should apply to all games. Who's saying it's unjust and who says it should apply to all games of all sorts? I'm saying that it is typical in MMOs that the hard core type (remember the thread? hello thread topic I still love you) will say "The real game begins at the level cap" and belligerently demand that they be catered to, but a statistically tiny number of people actually play like that. I'm sorry you like a thing that almost nobody else does I guess?
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Sep 8, 2015 16:32
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Harrow posted:My main concern with MMOs isn't that all content should be accessible by all skill levels, but rather than grinding is lovely and nobody likes it and more MMOs need to find ways to limit it. That's a much harder question to answer, though. (My personal solution would be to sharply limit how many times you have to complete a given dungeon to get all its rewards, then offer Halo-style skulls or Bastion-style idols to let you tweak the difficulty and introduce variations while also unlocking new rewards. You still reuse the same assets, but you make sure it's at least a little bit fresh each time, so it doesn't feel like grinding anymore.) Whoa dude you can't have people setting their own difficulty levels then the casuals will take over 
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Sep 8, 2015 16:35
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Flesh Forge posted:Who's saying it's unjust and who says it should apply to all games of all sorts? I'm saying that it is typical in MMOs that the hard core type (remember the thread? hello thread topic I still love you) will say "The real game begins at the level cap" and belligerently demand that they be catered to, but a statistically tiny number of people actually play like that. I'm sorry you like a thing that almost nobody else does I guess? Nobody is saying this in the thread. We are saying that there is nothing wrong with having normal mode and savage mode or LFR/Normal/Heroic/Mythic. Something for everyone. And even though only 20% of the user base has done the normal alex in FFXIV it's not because it's super difficult or actively trying to exclude people. Not everyone in an MMO wants to raid. Shocking I know! There are also people still leveling up or people just doing crafting and only crafting because in FFXIV crafting is a very involved thing. So saying normal mode and savage mode are not being done because they are unfun is highly unlikely. The only ones who would find normal mode unfun are probably your elitist raiders because there is no challenge and at the start of gated content it's the only way to get gear before the hard stuff is released. It's like you're arguing "I hate reading the story and watching cut scenes in my single player fantasy RPG. I just want to go out in the world and kill mans" . So you want them to design a singe player fantasy RPG without a story and just killing dudes because you don't find the story fun. That is never going to happen. You should instead go find a different game suited to that. Like an ARPG such as Diablo or Path of exile where the story doesn't really matter. In the end I think you just don't find mmo's fun but your reasons for not having fun really aren't as common as you think and you should probably find a different genre of video games that caters to what you find fun. Holyshoot fucked around with this message at 16:47 on Sep 8, 2015 |
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Sep 8, 2015 16:42
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People keep trying to make this exclusively about FFwhatever and not about anything else. What's up with that. Okay dudes I get that you like this game I'm sure it's the best game in history even though yes it is shocking that 80% of the playerbase ignores the content that you really like doing but whatever thanks for contributing.
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Sep 8, 2015 16:47
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Flesh Forge posted:Whoa dude you can't have people setting their own difficulty levels then the casuals will take over If you truly believe that "setting your own difficulty level" won't make it impossible to find people to do it at anything other than the minimum, I dunno what to tell you. Your mythical Anyplayer (which is way closer to the bottom of the bell curve than the middle for some reason) is not merely intimidated by challenge, but actively refuses to participate in things which could be challenging. Let's go back to WoW's LFR - it's more or less impossible to be too bad to clear LFR with even a couple of skilled players in your group, because the mechanics and DPS checks are negligible, if they exist at all. Despite that, there is a contingent of players who will refuse to even attempt to kill certain bosses without wiping to them repeatedly for the bonus stats they need to not feel "challenged" by the encounter. You can't design around that sort of behavior - it completely fails to be satisfying for anyone but the worst players.
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Sep 8, 2015 16:48
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Flesh Forge posted:People keep trying to make this exclusively about FFwhatever and not about anything else. What's up with that. Okay dudes I get that you like this game I'm sure it's the best game in history even though yes it is shocking that 80% of the playerbase ignores the content that you really like doing but whatever thanks for contributing. You can replace it with WoW and it's still the same thing. You should try Eve Online I think you might like it. You can do all the content from day 1. Load up in a rifter and go help kill the biggest ship in the game. That would be the closest thing to its "end game".
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Sep 8, 2015 16:49
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I mean people have mentioned WoW too, what other MMO has raid content can we mention here? LOTRO stopped making them a long time ago and the game is basically subsisting on pipeweed farmers and roleplayers, GW2 is small group content and so is TERA, TESO, TSW and B&S. Black Desert and EVE are mostly about PVP even if you have poo poo pve in them. Wildstar is the only other game that had some sort of high end raid content and that was torpedoed by a steady stream of mismanagement and horrible ideas from grognard developers.
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Sep 8, 2015 16:51
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Niton posted:Let's go back to WoW's LFR - it's more or less impossible to be too bad to clear LFR with even a couple of skilled players in your group, because the mechanics and DPS checks are negligible, if they exist at all. Despite that, there is a contingent of players who will refuse to even attempt to kill certain bosses without wiping to them repeatedly for the bonus stats they need to not feel "challenged" by the encounter. You can't design around that sort of behavior - it completely fails to be satisfying for anyone but the worst players. This is even active in FFXIV actually. Old raid content, typically a patch or two behind, has something called an Echo buff. If you wipe after a certain amount of time in to a fight you get a 5% flat bonus to your stats and skill. This can stack up to 25% bonus at 3 minutes an attempt. Some people refuse to do that raid content without that buff being 15% or more despite the fact in most cases if you can get halfway through a fight generally you can clear it. There are a few exceptions. This is also in mind that people are over geared compared to the first time clear content ON TOP of the bonus.
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Sep 8, 2015 16:52
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Holyshoot posted:You can replace it with WoW and it's still the same thing. You should try Eve Online I think you might like it. You can do all the content from day 1. Load up in a rifter and go help kill the biggest ship in the game. That would be the closest thing to its "end game". I played EVE for several years and am quite familiar with how it works, and I'm pretty sure nobody in the history of that game has ever accused the content of being FUN. In that sense yes it's an awesome example of how the end game notion is rubbish, thanks for bringing it up. Throttling character development to real time and guaranteeing that it is flat out impossible to do various stages of content is another great feature that is rubbish. e: the brilliant thing about EVE's design is that players are given a sense of "hmm maybe it will get better once I have X skill at Y level and have Z ship" but it never does 
Flesh Forge fucked around with this message at 16:56 on Sep 8, 2015 |
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Sep 8, 2015 16:54
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Cao Ni Ma posted:I mean people have mentioned WoW too, what other MMO has raid content can we mention here? LOTRO stopped making them a long time ago and the game is basically subsisting on pipeweed farmers and roleplayers, GW2 is small group content and so is TERA, TESO, TSW and B&S. Black Desert and EVE are mostly about PVP even if you have poo poo pve in them. I guess you can also talk about SWTOR. It has three raid modes, story, hard and nightmare. The story mode is actually not trivial and requires mechanics so the raid finder equivalent would lead to failed groups often for current content.
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Sep 8, 2015 16:56
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Cao Ni Ma posted:I mean people have mentioned WoW too, what other MMO has raid content can we mention here? LOTRO stopped making them a long time ago and the game is basically subsisting on pipeweed farmers and roleplayers, GW2 is small group content and so is TERA, TESO, TSW and B&S. Black Desert and EVE are mostly about PVP even if you have poo poo pve in them. Does Rift count? Or did, I guess - Trion is even worse than NCSoft at managing its assets, despite the goodwill it had during Rift's glory days.
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Sep 8, 2015 17:02
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Niton posted:Does Rift count? Or did, I guess - Trion is even worse than NCSoft at managing its assets, despite the goodwill it had during Rift's glory days. I dont think Rift counts anymore but yes I forgot about SWTOR. Although I will not thank you for reminding me about SWTOR hobbe. Actually age of wushu had raids. Horrible horrible raids that tested your understanding of how a person could genuinely design these encounters and left you in constant doubt of whether or not you were doing it right 
Cao Ni Ma fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Sep 8, 2015 |
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Sep 8, 2015 17:04
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lol Flesh Forge is terrible and the only correct thing he's said in pages is that EVE is bad.
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Sep 8, 2015 17:04
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This thread isn't fun anymore can we go back to making fun of
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Sep 8, 2015 17:07
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YoshiOfYellow posted:This thread isn't fun anymore can we go back to making fun of ah, you want the 14 thread
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Sep 8, 2015 17:08
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Harrow posted:This, please. I think I'd really enjoy that. Multiplayer dungeon runs where you pick a character at the start and level up and "build" your character over the course of the dungeon would be really fun. You get to enjoy gathering equipment and trying out character builds but don't really have to care about long-term progression or anything. X Hero Siege in warcraft 3 custom maps or any of the hero siege maps were pretty much exactly this. I miss the wc3 custom scene before it got engulfed by dota.
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Sep 8, 2015 17:18
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Flesh Forge posted:I played EVE for several years and am quite familiar with how it works, and I'm pretty sure nobody in the history of that game has ever accused the content of being FUN. In that sense yes it's an awesome example of how the end game notion is rubbish, thanks for bringing it up. Throttling character development to real time and guaranteeing that it is flat out impossible to do various stages of content is another great feature that is rubbish. When you stay in hi-sec and mine all day then yes it's not fun. But I say it's pretty fun helping destroy a ship worth over a thousand real life dollars that that person won't have anymore. Also here is this one secret moms don't want you to know about to get ahead in eve and do all the content day 1. scam someone out of their money and then use that money to buy a character with all the skills you want hth Do you use cheat codes on all your single player games? You seem like the type who would, seeing as how you don't like having to progress through anything or go through a challenge. Maybe farmville is more your deal. Or some other cell phone game.
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Sep 8, 2015 17:27
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Legitimately shocked Heart of Thorns isn't adding a race of anime cat people to GW2. The character slots practically sell themselves.
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Sep 8, 2015 17:38
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Holyshoot posted:
I didn't read the rest of these dumb posts arguing about anime mmos and space spreadsheets but this quote seems to be 100% non ironic and it owns.
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Sep 8, 2015 17:48
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also this is from a while ago but i just want to mention it:Cao Ni Ma posted:Something like 70% of the active cap level population in WoW completed at least one wing in a raid thanks to LFR, this rate has remained consistent through the new raids and expansions. There is no barrier of entry, if they aren't clearing it its because they just dont want to. WoW has a way higher % of raiders than any other game will ever realistically have because there is nothing else left in WoW. WoW has been devoid of any sort of interesting non-raid content for the better part of a decade at this point - since Zul'aman's release in 2007, there have been only a handful of non-box content patches that offered anything other than MAX SIZE RAIDING, and they're almost all among the game's weakest. The game stagnates horribly between boxed expansions, often going a year or more without anything being added for people who don't like the idea of raiding. There are people who log on and don't raid, but they make up less than a third of the playerbase and, to be honest, I have absolutely no idea what they do. Niton fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Sep 8, 2015 |
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Sep 8, 2015 17:48
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Flesh Forge posted:It is sad that yes, people have surrendered the idea that "the content should be fun" and have settled for "at least it will make my numbers go up" Is it really 'settled' if that's the way MMOs have been from day one? It's the RPG part in MMO RPG.
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Sep 8, 2015 17:54
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Niton posted:also this is from a while ago but i just want to mention it: Have you ever been to Goldshire Inn?
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Sep 8, 2015 17:56
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i doubt it because then they'd have said "i want nothing to do with what they do"
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Sep 8, 2015 18:04
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SerCypher posted:Is it really 'settled' if that's the way MMOs have been from day one? There have actually been some MMOs that were designed to be not much about loot uberness and the ~hard core~ experience and more about fun activities, yeah. I'm sorry the notion of "hey guys maybe games could be fun" provokes so much anger from the thread I'll let you folks go back to amazing each other with incredible tales of the doodad you found in FFwhatever or the day you completed Mega Supermode Raid Bajillion in under 20 minutes
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Sep 8, 2015 18:05
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Rorus Raz posted:Legitimately shocked Heart of Thorns isn't adding a race of anime cat people to GW2. The character slots practically sell themselves. There is already a race of cat people and the story patches have added some that are very anime
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Sep 8, 2015 18:06
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Smart Car posted:i doubt it because then they'd have said "i want nothing to do with what they do" Oh, i'm well aware of what goes on - I just don't really get how they justify subscribing to a game that hates them rather than moving to any of the f2p dressup MMOs out there. Or Balmung. Flesh Forge posted:There have actually been some MMOs that were designed to be not much about loot uberness and the ~hard core~ experience and more about fun activities, yeah. I'm sorry the notion of "hey guys maybe games could be fun" provokes so much anger from the thread I'll let you folks go back to amazing each other with incredible tales of the doodad you found in FFwhatever or the day you completed Mega Supermode Raid Bajillion in under 20 minutes It sounds like what you actually want to play is Habbo Hotel. Niton fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Sep 8, 2015 |
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Sep 8, 2015 18:09
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Flesh Forge posted:There have actually been some MMOs that were designed to be not much about loot uberness and the ~hard core~ experience and more about fun activities, yeah. I'm sorry the notion of "hey guys maybe games could be fun" provokes so much anger from the thread I'll let you folks go back to amazing each other with incredible tales of the doodad you found in FFwhatever or the day you completed Mega Supermode Raid Bajillion in under 20 minutes What I think happened is that people are older now and have less time for videogames, and MMOs. So they want the Genre to change as their lifestyle has changed. There are those of us no-lifers though who still like the more traditional ones. I don't think that gap will ever be bridged. I like logging on and dying in a raid for hours. It's fun.
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Sep 8, 2015 18:10
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SerCypher posted:What I think happened is that people are older now and have less time for videogames, and MMOs. So they want the Genre to change as their lifestyle has changed. Video games have become a lot more casual than they used to be - you can do everything short of being a HARDCORE RAIDER in both WoW and FFXIV in about 5 hours a week, less if you have time to play when it's not the weekend. MMOs are a subset of video game where it should be your major hobby, though, rather than a minor one, because they really don't play well in tiny bursts like other genres. A lot of the people in my Free Company are like that - they enjoy the atmosphere, but only really have time during the weekend and maybe 1 weekday. So they log in, talk with friends, do their stuff, and are happy with the time they're spending because it's not just playing a video game. That's the real end goal of playing a MMO. I think a bigger part of the problem is that a lot of people still think that playing a MMO together is somehow different than fishing, or playing cards, or going to see a movie, or any number of other group social activities. If it's what you enjoy doing, there's nothing wrong with budgeting your free time to do it - gently caress the haters. Niton fucked around with this message at 18:19 on Sep 8, 2015 |
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Sep 8, 2015 18:13
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Keep going guys. This thread is surpassing the grognard games thread in all ways.  11/10 would read three times.
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Sep 8, 2015 18:15
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Cao Ni Ma posted:There is already a race of cat people and the story patches have added some that are very anime but the females don't have bg tits so no it not the same.
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Sep 8, 2015 18:17
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Flesh Forge posted:There have actually been some MMOs that were designed to be not much about loot uberness and the ~hard core~ experience and more about fun activities, yeah. I'm sorry the notion of "hey guys maybe games could be fun" provokes so much anger from the thread I'll let you folks go back to amazing each other with incredible tales of the doodad you found in FFwhatever or the day you completed Mega Supermode Raid Bajillion in under 20 minutes lmao
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Sep 8, 2015 18:33
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Cyron posted:but the females don't have bg tits so no it not the same.  The dev's certainly didn't make them small. Though yes, compared to games like Blade and Soul, characters in FF look like starving refugees.
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Sep 8, 2015 18:45
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he's talking about guild wars 2
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Sep 8, 2015 18:55
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RottenK posted:he's talking about guild wars 2 Oh, are those really cat people though? They're kind of just cats with oppose-able thumbs.
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Sep 8, 2015 19:02
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SerCypher posted:Oh, are those really cat people though? They are about 70% cat, 20% people, 10% Cow and about 50% anime by virtue of being in GW2
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Sep 8, 2015 19:04
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Cao Ni Ma posted:They are about 70% cat, 20% people, 10% Cow and about 50% anime by virtue of being in GW2 Only 50%? 
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Sep 8, 2015 19:09
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Pesterchum posted:Only 50%? They look like they've been taxidermized.
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Sep 8, 2015 19:15
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Post anime wildstar pictures please
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Sep 8, 2015 19:16
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Pesterchum posted:Only 50%? The one on the right is an NPC named Rox who had her anime percentage tripled after ANET decided to make those eyes. Most of the Charr (GW2 cat race) does not look like that since the eyes are not an option during character creation. There is a Goku hair option for them though which is quite popular.
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Sep 8, 2015 19:18
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Xavier434 posted:The one on the right is an NPC named Rox who had her anime percentage tripled after ANET decided to make those eyes. Most of the Charr (GW2 cat race) does not look like that since the eyes are not an option during character creation. There is a Goku hair option for them though which is quite popular. It's too bad, as the Char are the only race of "cat people" that aren't literally chicks with ears and a tale.
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Sep 8, 2015 19:26
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