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King Hotpants posted:Okay, I guess I'm weird. Yep, I live in one of the largest cities in the US, the Leaf's range works just fine for all my in town needs. Friends and rentals exist if I'm going somewhere out of town, which I did before I got the Leaf anyways. Godholio posted:Now pretend you're trying to entice the demographic that includes men in their 40s with 3-5 kids and hates everything about their lives. "Yes, I'd like to sit in a booth for half an hour twice a day with these screaming nitwits and my 300 lb wife who spends my paycheck on perfume that smells like roadkill's rear end and McDonalds instead of the peace and quiet of standing at the gas pump fighting the urge to just spark a lighter and call it good." A road trip where you stop twice for a half hour? That's nothing at all like stopping for lunch and dinner! The grocery store has charging stations, as does the parking garage across the street and some of the movie theaters. Places that you'd normally spend some time at anyways are are going to end up being the places you "refuel" your EV for in town stuff. EV charging on road trips will end up being like TA and other truck stops that have a bunch of stuff going on, I'd wager. Either way, we're many years away. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I'm just saying it's not a compelling competition with a gas vehicle when there's an amount of inconvenience and cap on capability. This is America - people want to be Free To Do What They Want, Like Drive To Florida Non-Stop even if they are never going to do it. It's an actual hurdle for EVs and EV fans don't really like to acknowledge it. People always ask me about road trips. I tell them that's not what the Leaf is for, and neither my bicycle nor my scooter are for long distance trips. Some people have trouble with the idea that a car doesn't have to be an all in one transportation device.
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Sep 9, 2015 22:54
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It's a possible way to repurpose something that is hopefully becoming obsolete, really. I'd personally rather just charge at home or a destination  The reason I underscored that they'd be nice places is there'd be competition with like, literally anywhere else with chargers in the parking lot, so they'd need to become compelling in their own right in order to make money, just like how gas is really just a way to lure people into a mini-mart.
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Sep 9, 2015 22:56
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Boten Anna posted:I think this person has bigger problems than how long it takes to refuel their car, and certainly is not who we should be basing infrastructure decisions on. You're probably right. But the non-hyperbolic version of that person IS. And that's lower-middle to middle class families that need at least one row of real backseats, not a Corvette-priced supercar or something that only fits up to about a 10 year old in the back. And there's not much out there right now. You've got a Focus, the Fit and Accord are dead, there's a Golf, and a couple of others...but I think the Focus is the only one that starts below $40,000 (and that's like 39,9). For $40k those families can get a whole lot more car than these options, and they'll continue to do so until there's actually something worth cross-shopping.
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Sep 9, 2015 23:29
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Right now you can get a RAV4 ev, and the leaf is as roomy as a Matrix or other similar hatchback. Mine certainly excels at trips to Costco. The only real problem with EV minivans or SUVs even is that the bigger batteries required to give them range go straight to the sticker price. That's why EVs started small and have been creeping up to larger ones, as battery prices go down and density goes up to justify it. For now, the stereotypical American family, you have the regular ICE minivan for the person at home and the EV for the one that commutes to work. That said, I live in a rather conservative area that has Leafs goddamned all over town at all the running errands places; they already work fine for smaller families. EV minivans will be a thing soon, it's just a function of how much batteries cost per kwh, and after sedans and hatchbacks kick the door in so there's already a charger at home and more around town/on the way to places to where demand surfaces for them.
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Sep 10, 2015 00:03
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I agree completely (except the Rav4 EV is discontinued, though they're probably still on the lots because they weren't popular). But until you win that demographic, electric cars will be seen as niche products. Most families with more than one small child aren't buying those little hatches, either, so the Matrix isn't a good comparison. They're buying Accords (without the added cost of an electric model), they're buying Camrys, they're buying Subarus. And there's nothing that cross shops with those at a comparable price point...or say, less than a $10,000 premium. The "smaller family" demo isn't the tipping point, the larger or established family is (more kids, bigger kids). Those people are waiting for a well-priced bigger car or SUV or minivan. The smaller family is important too, because that's where you grab those people and win them over so when they move up in the financial world they're willing to start their car shopping with an EV. But the options for the small family are limited...they don't usually have a lot of money so most EVs are just too drat expensive. I sure as hell couldn't pay $40,000 when I had a kid, I drove a $15k Focus. The Leaf is perfect for those folks, but it's basically the only option.
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Sep 10, 2015 00:20
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It's mostly sticker shock though, like it's hard to see a huge number upfront and not fixate on that and not realize that when you combine your lease/payment and fuel costs, it's often (much) less overall. Leafs seem to eternally have $200/mo lease deals where it looks like a Camry is like $180ish. Add in $100/mo+ of gas versus maybe MAYBE $20 of electricity, and any ICE car is going to need more/more expensive maintenance and be less reliable and have a bunch of other hidden costs. Of course the non sale purchase (not lease) cost is apparently closer to $300 for the Leaf, which makes this all much more marginal, but the batteries aren't exactly getting MORE expensive, and that's before tax rebates. Hell I got a check for more than double what it cost to install a charging station for just leasing one, and it was 1/3 the size of the tax credits you get if you buy one.
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Sep 10, 2015 04:41
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Godholio posted:Now pretend you're trying to entice the demographic that includes men in their 40s with 3-5 kids and hates everything about their lives. "Yes, I'd like to sit in a booth for half an hour twice a day with these screaming nitwits and my 300 lb wife who spends my paycheck on perfume that smells like roadkill's rear end and McDonalds instead of the peace and quiet of standing at the gas pump fighting the urge to just spark a lighter and call it good." All this talk about lounges and eateries and stuff on the highway where you can pull in and use the toilet, get a coffee, they're relatively clean and decent.... These things already exist? At least in Ontario, along the 401. And here's the thing about the guy you're describing. Oh sure, he's probably out there, maybe only existing in your mind if you were in that position. Thing is, you go in these places for a piss and a snack or a coffee, they're teeming with happy dads and their ill behaved children. The pod people? They loove being pod people, and they travel in pods, and they all get out of their people movers and get their Timmie's and their A&W, Starbucks if they're feeling fancy, and have a good old family meal on their family road trip. If anything, there wouldn't be anywhere near enough charging capacity at highway rest stops if even a quarter of them drove EVs.
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Sep 10, 2015 07:43
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:I'm just saying it's not a compelling competition with a gas vehicle when there's an amount of inconvenience and cap on capability. This is America - people want to be Free To Do What They Want, Like Drive To Florida Non-Stop even if they are never going to do it. It's an actual hurdle for EVs and EV fans don't really like to acknowledge it. The difficulty with the Leaf is say I find out tomorrow I have to do 140 miles of driving. I have all the sudden assigned myself a whole lot of work. I have to find a rental car, rent it, get it, put my stuff in it, drive to wherever, return to the rental lot, put my stuff back in my car, and drive home. I just gave myself 2 hours of work. If I was married it would be "here you drive the Leaf tomorrow, I'll take xx" edit Does anyone know if there is a way to put a roof rack on current gen Chevy Volt? All I see is a Rhino Rack which I have never heard of. Some guy on these GM Volt forums has a Thule setup, but then on their website it says it does not exist. drat a dealer has 2016 Volts listed for 30k. Obviously they don't have them yet (it is either stock pics or a Van), but if that is actually what they sell them for you're under 23k with the refund (even more if you can still use Volt Loyalty and other discounts). http://www.cars.com/for-sale/search...ice&sf2Dir=DESC Ribsauce fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Sep 10, 2015 |
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Sep 10, 2015 20:56
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Boten Anna posted:It's mostly sticker shock though, like it's hard to see a huge number upfront and not fixate on that and not realize that when you combine your lease/payment and fuel costs, it's often (much) less overall. The sticker/(negotiated price)is all that matters though, comparing the cost based on monthly payments is quite frankly stupid unless you want a $40k altima. blugu64 fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Sep 10, 2015 |
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Sep 10, 2015 22:57
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blugu64 posted:The sticker/(negotiated price)is all that matters though, comparing the cost based on monthly payments is quite frankly stupid unless you want a $40k altima. It isn't when you consider that the operating costs of a Leaf can be low enough that the lease payment and electrical costs could be less than your gas bill alone on a paid-for vehicle. The new longer range Leaf intrigues me, though with gas prices so cheap right now I don't think I could make that same argument today.
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Sep 10, 2015 23:13
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IOwnCalculus posted:It isn't when you consider that the operating costs of a Leaf can be low enough that the lease payment and electrical costs could be less than your gas bill alone on a paid-for vehicle. Sure it is. How long is it financed for? Put any money down? If I pay for a Camry in cash my monthly payment is $0 + gas and maintenance. Going by the monthly payment is a shell game.
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Sep 11, 2015 00:05
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Anyone know what was in the Model S software update that just went out? It still identifies as 6.2 and I don't see anything new in the release notes.
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Sep 11, 2015 00:20
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blugu64 posted:Sure it is. How long is it financed for? Put any money down? If I pay for a Camry in cash my monthly payment is $0 + gas and maintenance. Lease with $0 down, I think the best quote I got was in the range of $250/mo for 36 months and 15k miles/year. At the time I was putting about $200/mo into my Ranger, mostly into the gas tank. Off-peak charging in AZ is only $0.07 per kWh, and if I could've made it work, I would've done half my charging at work anyway. I deleted the spreadsheet but after factoring in a few other things (including the charger installation, one set of tires during the lease, and the much cheaper registration) I was looking at maybe a $50/mo net increase in total monthly spend to go from a 15-year-old beater truck to a new hatchback with HOV-lane access. And before you throw out a "but you don't own the Leaf at the end of the lease", it's not like I own a tank of gas after I burn it anyway. If (when gas prices go up) there's an EV with at least 150 miles EPA range that can be leased in that same price bracket, I might do it after all. The 107-mile Leaf might even be enough, but I'm still gunshy because of the problems they've had with battery degradation in Arizona. Yes, they're upping the warranty, but they still don't consider it a problem until you've lost 25% of the range, which still puts me right at the edge of getting home on a single charge in the summer.
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Sep 11, 2015 00:26
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The 2016 Leaf SV/SL now has a 30 kWh battery to provide 107 miles for about the same price as before. It comes in red now so I might have to trade up even though that would make my custom plate even more weird.
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Sep 11, 2015 01:15
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duz posted:The 2016 Leaf SV/SL now has a 30 kWh battery to provide 107 miles for about the same price as before. Oh my god, my dealership sent out an email begging me to trade up my lease so they could have more used 2015 Leaf inventory and this poo poo is tempting.
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Sep 11, 2015 01:24
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Pretty sure that's just a 'buy a new car from us!' Email, nothing to do with their actual inventory needs. I really want to know if the new battery can be retrofitted to my Leaf when the time comes. For me right now 30kw would be the sweet spot. 24 is working quite well but I have to charge 100% every day in the winter to make sure I get home if we have a sudden freak blizzard at -10*. I'd love to leave it at 80% most of the year. Of course, I'm not yet noticing any degradation at 31k miles so hopefully battery replacement is a looong way off! Oh, another market where used Leafs are taking over: right now they are THE hot ticket to buy your teenager. They get a car with good crash test ratings for cheap and you know they'll be home at night to charge! Several kids at our local high school have them now; a couple were picked up under $10,000 because they had been in fender benders.
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Sep 11, 2015 04:05
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Oh I'm sure but restarting the lease for one with carwings/bluetooth audio/30kwh battery is really tempting
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Sep 11, 2015 04:38
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Speaking of batteries, it looks like MIT has developed a new battery which could utterly erase at least two of the issues with EVs: https://news.mit.edu/2015/solid-state-rechargeable-batteries-safer-longer-lasting-0817 Their battery (based on swapping out the liquid electrolyte of today's batteries with a solid) offers a fairly modest improvement in energy density, but it offers other advantages: -Effectively no risk of bursting into flame -Improved cold weather performance -Lifespan approaching that promised by supercapacitors (hundreds of thousands of cycles) The article didn't mention graphene or nano-something-or-others, so hopefully it'll be easier to mass produce than all those other future batteries we've been teased with. I wonder how hard it'd be for Tesla to retool their battery factory to crank out something like this. Not accounting for future advancements in battery technology in an investment of that magnitude would be a pretty nasty fuckup.
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Sep 11, 2015 23:16
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I doubt Elon "Let's Nuke Mars" Musk is allowing the Gigafactory to be designed in a way that absolutely binds them to one process or type of battery. While this looks like it's a bit different to manufacture, I'm sure if MIT lets them use the tech they'll figure out how to manufacture it, or at least try to. These sound pretty neat too, like I wonder if they don't heat up as much under heavy use and charging, too, which would be nice for cell phone batteries. While 20-30% increase in density isn't an earthshattering improvement, it's certainly a sizable one.
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Sep 12, 2015 21:37
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Boten Anna posted:These sound pretty neat too, like I wonder if they don't heat up as much under heavy use and charging, too, which would be nice for cell phone batteries. While 20-30% increase in density isn't an earthshattering improvement, it's certainly a sizable one. If it lets cars avoid the need for complex heating and cooling systems, that in itself would probably offer about 20-30% more energy in a given size pack.
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Sep 13, 2015 00:32
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Cockmaster posted:If it lets cars avoid the need for complex heating and cooling systems, that in itself would probably offer about 20-30% more energy in a given size pack. Do you mean that a fifth of a vehicle's power goes to cooling the battery?
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Sep 13, 2015 01:28
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I have a Leaf so I think like, 0% goes into cooling the battery
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Sep 13, 2015 01:31
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Subjunctive posted:Do you mean that a fifth of a vehicle's power goes to cooling the battery? No, I meant that the space used for cooling hardware could instead be used to hold more batteries.
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Sep 13, 2015 02:19
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Boten Anna posted:These sound pretty neat too, like I wonder if they don't heat up as much under heavy use and charging, too, which would be nice for cell phone batteries. While 20-30% increase in density isn't an earthshattering improvement, it's certainly a sizable one.
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Sep 13, 2015 04:29
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roomforthetuna posted:The thing that keeps me from biting the bullet on an EV is the feeling that I'll need to replace the batteries in 5-10 years at a cost that's effectively $50-$100 per month over that timespan, eliminating the bulk of gas savings. You won't have to. While it will degrade over time, it will last the lifetime of the car - 10-15 years. A Leaf has a 8 year / 100k mile warranty on the battery, Tesla has 8 years unlimited mileage. It compares well with a gas drivetrain which can also be pretty tired after 100,000 miles.
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Sep 13, 2015 15:00
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Ola posted:You won't have to. While it will degrade over time, it will last the lifetime of the car - 10-15 years. A Leaf has a 8 year / 100k mile warranty on the battery, Tesla has 8 years unlimited mileage. It compares well with a gas drivetrain which can also be pretty tired after 100,000 miles. What dictates the lifetime of the car here? Because it seems it's the battery in your example. I have 2 13 year old ICE cars and neither is approaching the end of its, even though one has 195k miles on it. Friends and workmate drive 3ish year old ex lease cars, most are delivered with 100k miles on then and the steering and suspension, drivetrain etc feel like new. If given the minimum of care a leaf will look and feel pretty drat good in 10 years, it won't have rusted away and if the suspension feels mushy that's because bushes are a wear item, replace them and the car feels new again. But it'll have a 30 mile range.
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Sep 13, 2015 16:07
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I kind of figure that 10 years from now batteries will be so much cheaper and less expensive that there will be kits to upgrade old Leafs to 200+ mile range for a couple thou
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Sep 13, 2015 16:38
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While many people on a car forum will be used to high mileage cars, the average is pretty low:quote:Consumer Reports says the average life expectancy of a new vehicle these days is around 8 years or 150,000 miles http://www.nbcnews.com/id/12040753/ns/business-consumer_news/t/whats-life-expectancy-my-car/ I do agree that the battery might be most important factor in limiting the lifetime / economic repair of the car and that a replacement ($5500 according to google) is pretty pricey, but you don't have to replace it within 5-10 years. Reports say Leafs are at 75-80% cap at 100k miles, if you do very high mileage than you should probably factor in the replacement cost after 150-200k miles. Otherwise, no need to worry.
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Sep 13, 2015 16:39
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A Leaf would be enough range most of the time for me, but there are others where it would just fall down and I'm not even talking about trips out of town. I look at last night. I came back from vacation with my parents and drove from their house back to my house (30 miles), I then immediately turned around and drove out to a friends house for a get together (also about 30 miles). Obviously, the return trip back to my house would be 30 miles. So, in one evening I did about 90 miles of driving that I would consider just being the local area without much thought. So, I would have a difficult time living with a vehicle with only an 80 mile range. 150-200 is more doable for me to have that margin. Actually my car has about a 240 mile range before I need to fill it's tank under most normal driving conditions and aside from long multi-hour planned car trips, I can't recall a time where I started out the day with a full tank and had the need to fuel again in the same day. That's what I would consider minimum range for me, the maximum number of miles I would dive in a given day where a long planned trip wasn't involved. For me, that number is less than 240, but more than 120 (which is a round trip to my sister's house.)
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Sep 13, 2015 17:57
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Which is why I think 200 mile range EVs are going to be kind of a big deal as they get affordable. While I manage with my Leaf, roughly double the range would make it never a problem. With quick charging I could even do road trips.
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Sep 13, 2015 18:31
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Ola posted:You won't have to. While it will degrade over time, it will last the lifetime of the car - 10-15 years. A Leaf has a 8 year / 100k mile warranty on the battery, Tesla has 8 years unlimited mileage. It compares well with a gas drivetrain which can also be pretty tired after 100,000 miles. Though I suppose planning for still regularly making that trip in 5+ years might be a bit silly anyway. And I guess that's a good point too, that I was just comparing the battery replacement cost against gas cost, and not against gas cost plus all the *other* regular maintenance on an ICE.
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Sep 14, 2015 07:49
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DriveNow just arrived with a bunch of BMW i3s in Copenhagen. It actually seems like a really awesome concept. Speaking of which, the i3 has 155/70 19" tires. 
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Sep 14, 2015 09:59
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Yeah, those skinny-rear end tires look totally weird. Probably great for mileage, though.
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Sep 14, 2015 10:01
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Whoa. Audi just unveiled their e-tron quattro concept. 3 motors, 430 hp, 95 kWh battery with 500+ km, 310+ mi nominal range. http://www.slashgear.com/audis-496hp-e-tron-quattro-concept-previews-2018s-all-electric-suv-14404468/
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Sep 14, 2015 20:52
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Ola posted:While many people on a car forum will be used to high mileage cars, the average is pretty low: Yet the average age of a vehicle on the road today is about 11.5 years... Actually, that 8 year number is scary when you consider the very rapid and recent rise in 96 month new car loans, or 72 month loans on used cars. Randomly curious, how many people here ranting about EV range only have one vehicle in their household? If I for some reason needed to take a short notice long trip I'd just take our beater pickup. I'm American, dammit, and we have four registered vehicles in a two person household!
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Sep 15, 2015 03:48
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Advent Horizon posted:Randomly curious, how many people here ranting about EV range only have one vehicle in their household? If I for some reason needed to take a short notice long trip I'd just take our beater pickup. I'm American, dammit, and we have four registered vehicles in a two person household! We only have one car and it's a Leaf. We rent for longer trips, but we always have, even when we owned two ICE cars. If the car has an expensive problem in the middle of nowhere, I like knowing that it's not my problem.
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Sep 15, 2015 04:03
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Ola posted:While many people on a car forum will be used to high mileage cars, the average is pretty low: That's also a 9 year old article, right? My friend's 2006 2.7L Sebring had the engine seize at 110k miles, but that's because it's an enormous piece of poo poo and he never changed the oil, not because cars die at under 150k. Cars have gotten a LOT better since that article is written.
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Sep 15, 2015 04:13
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Advent Horizon posted:Yet the average age of a vehicle on the road today is about 11.5 years... An EV would be my fourth car, but my daily driving plus battery degradation means I couldn't even trust it for commute miles only. Close, so drat close, and I'd have one already if I could charge at work.
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Sep 15, 2015 04:28
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Advent Horizon posted:Randomly curious, how many people here ranting about EV range only have one vehicle in their household? If I for some reason needed to take a short notice long trip I'd just take our beater pickup. I'm American, dammit, and we have four registered vehicles in a two person household! I've got two, and the most fuel efficient gets 19-21 mpg consistently.
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Sep 15, 2015 06:03
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Twerk from Home posted:That's also a 9 year old article, right? My friend's 2006 2.7L Sebring had the engine seize at 110k miles, but that's because it's an enormous piece of poo poo and he never changed the oil, not because cars die at under 150k. Cars have gotten a LOT better since that article is written. Oops hehe. I just googled and clicked the first thing. I think a car's life expectancy also depends on the economy. The more money people have, the sooner they scrap their cars.
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Sep 15, 2015 07:25
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