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If he did give Venom the same mission as The Boss, it's also interesting because it thematically reflects on the question of whether Naked Snake could've done what The Boss did. And it gives an answer: No. Venom was made Big Boss's double, made to think and act like him and essentially be him in every respect. And when Big Boss tells Venom to die, Venom blows the lid off everything to Solid. He's too petty, or too aware of Big Boss's (and his own) sins, and decides the ideology isn't worth dying for. Which is what Big Boss struggled with when The Boss agreed to die, since she too was dying for an ideology she didn't personally believe in. He could never understand how doing this made sense to her or how it would lead to the world she wanted, but it seems like Venom did right before MG1 and rejected it in favor of turning the legend around on Big Boss to out him as a villain. Venom realized he was supposed to die as just "Some Chump, Leader of Outer Heaven" but knew that he was in fact "Big Boss" and could die as "Big Boss, Terrorist Traitor" and in so doing wreck the legend and complicate things for the real Big Boss. And he could only do this because Big Boss decided to be complicit in the lie and take Venom into his confidences. The Boss and Big Boss both end up having their legends ruined, but The Boss willingly chose to embrace a lie she hoped would save the world while Big Boss constructed a lie to beef up his reputation and Venom decided to play the lie out all the way to the end and in so doing ruined all of Big Boss's plans. He was never thematically a parallel to The Boss, and every aspect of his legend that related back to hers was twisted or false. The Man Who Sold the World was actually Venom, turning "the legendary heroic mercenary Big Boss" into "the militant nuclear dictator Big Boss" in the eyes of everyone and forcing even Big Boss to accept that role.
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Sep 11, 2015 18:31
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Machinegunboyo posted:What bothers me about this is that the Boss ultimately sacrificed herself for her country, whilst Venom is essentially sacrificing himself for one man - Big Boss. Whilst it's a small detail I do feel it makes a big difference in that Venom's plight just seems a lot more trivIal in comparison. To me, at least, that makes Big Boss even worse by comparison--he's essentially molded, sculpted, and ultimately destroyed a man's life just in service of his "legend." It wasn't to save a nation, it was to save an ultimately twisted ideology. Really, the only part of this that is truly incongruous in my reading is the version of Big Boss we get at the end of MGS4, where he was basically "right all along." MGSV really followed through on showing us that Big Boss is a demon. He's not the murderous, violent demon we expected to see him become, but rather manipulative, deceitful, and remarkably self-absorbed. I don't think the execution was at all perfect, but I think the idea of it is pretty excellent.
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Sep 11, 2015 18:32
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Nakar posted:If he did give Venom the same mission as The Boss, it's also interesting because it thematically reflects on the question of whether Naked Snake could've done what The Boss did. And it gives an answer: No. Venom was made Big Boss's double, made to think and act like him and essentially be him in every respect. And when Big Boss tells Venom to die, Venom blows the lid off everything to Solid. He's too petty, or too aware of Big Boss's (and his own) sins, and decides the ideology isn't worth dying for. Which is what Big Boss struggled with when The Boss agreed to die, since she too was dying for an ideology she didn't personally believe in.
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Sep 11, 2015 18:35
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The implication is actually really good, because Mission 46 is all about setting up Venom as the guy who got played but in the end, he's sort of the one who ended up playing Big Boss. Big Boss wanted all the glory of being Big Boss but none of the blood and violence inherent in establishing his dream of a nation of soldiers (which turned out to be really, really hosed up), so he had Venom do all of that. Venom blowing BB's cover to Solid is basically him saying "Oh you want me to die so you can claim the legacy of Big Boss all to yourself? Well guess what motherfucker, that means all these nukes and child soldiers and poo poo are your problem now, have fun."
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Sep 11, 2015 18:37
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Nakar posted:If he did give Venom the same mission as The Boss, it's also interesting because it thematically reflects on the question of whether Naked Snake could've done what The Boss did. And it gives an answer: No. Venom was made Big Boss's double, made to think and act like him and essentially be him in every respect. And when Big Boss tells Venom to die, Venom blows the lid off everything to Solid. He's too petty, or too aware of Big Boss's (and his own) sins, and decides the ideology isn't worth dying for. Which is what Big Boss struggled with when The Boss agreed to die, since she too was dying for an ideology she didn't personally believe in. I think this is a nice way of looking at this but do we know for sure this is how it played out? I'm not entirely convinced that Venom turned against Big Boss but it does work much better that way. Harrow posted:To me, at least, that makes Big Boss even worse by comparison--he's essentially molded, sculpted, and ultimately destroyed a man's life just in service of his "legend." It wasn't to save a nation, it was to save an ultimately twisted ideology. Really, the only part of this that is truly incongruous in my reading is the version of Big Boss we get at the end of MGS4, where he was basically "right all along." I think you're right in that perhaps the execution was the real problem. The idea itself isn't bad but it just seemed so tacked on the way it was played out.
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Sep 11, 2015 18:40
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Machinegunboyo posted:I think this is a nice way of looking at this but do we know for sure this is how it played out? I'm not entirely convinced that Venom turned against Big Boss but it does work much better that way.
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Sep 11, 2015 18:42
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Machinegunboyo posted:I think you're right in that perhaps the execution was the real problem. The idea itself isn't bad but it just seemed so tacked on the way it was played out. What's interesting is just how effective that final scene is. The extra scenes in Mission 46 and the true ending are extremely well done. It's just that a lot of the game is less successful, and it just barely doesn't give us enough of the implications of what Big Boss allowed to happen to Venom. I like that we're asked to fill in the blanks ourselves but what it leaves us with at the end--"actually the final boss of Metal Gear 1 was Venom, not Big Boss"--requires us to do just a bit too much work to really make into a satisfying revelation. I wish the rest of the game was as effective, on a narrative level, as Mission 46 and the Mother Base infection scenes.
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Sep 11, 2015 18:49
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I'd love to see an alternate MGS4 ending where BB died and Venom lived. Hey don't shoot yourself man, i need you to pretend to be me in Metal Gear Solid VI: Attack of the clones
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Sep 11, 2015 18:49
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Intel&Sebastian posted:I'd love to see an alternate MGS4 ending where BB died and Venom lived. And then ten minutes after Snake leaves he wakes up because FOXDIE doesn't work on him since he's just some random guy.
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Sep 11, 2015 18:52
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It is cool to think about how the medics life was ruined or taken away in a more realistic world, but in the MGS world he was in MSF and probably had the extreme boycrush on BB anyway. I think it was a safe assumption (but still an immoral one) to say he would agree to the Doppelganger plan.
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Sep 11, 2015 18:57
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Totally agree on the comments about the twist. I love the twist. But the execution was off, there needed to be a few extra missions where Venom came to terms with the twist rather than have the twist itself be the ending. It does make Big Boss out to be arguably worse than Zero though and I love that. I just wish the rest of the game didn't have stuff cut out or weren't reliant on parasites as the explanation for everything.
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Sep 11, 2015 19:07
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This post really puts the ending in perspective http://www.giantbomb.com/metal-gear-solid-v-the-phantom-pain/3030-40796/forums/the-ultimate-ending-discussion-spoilers-1781915/
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Sep 11, 2015 19:17
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I really want to know the track name for the song that plays over the final scenes of the true ending, where Venom punches the mirror. It's good stuff.
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Sep 11, 2015 19:25
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Harrow posted:I really want to know the track name for the song that plays over the final scenes of the true ending, where Venom punches the mirror. It's good stuff. Return https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvO1ibcbO28
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Sep 11, 2015 19:26
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Hell yes, thank you.
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Sep 11, 2015 19:26
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Harrow posted:Hell yes, thank you. Don't get too excited, it's not the version used in the Quiet trailer and the ending scene. Those aren't on the soundtrack for whatever reason :\
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Sep 11, 2015 19:29
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I think the actual track that plays during the ending, including the mirror punch, is this one: https://youtu.be/83jWwQfK-f8?t=1h51m47s The mirror punch theme begins around 01:55:00. According to the video, it is called "Fortress" but that may not be right because other songs are listed out of order in the description. In It For The Tank fucked around with this message at 19:47 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 19:43
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Alexander DeLarge posted:This post really puts the ending in perspective This is a really good write up. It kind of sucks that Solid Snake is the best hero in the game because BB is ultimately the more interesting character. But on the other side of things SS was the only person to act entirely altruistically, so it makes sense that he would be the moral center of the series. Guess I am cracking out my ps3 to replay some of the older games
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Sep 11, 2015 19:57
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Isn't that Ingsoc.org logo something that has been used in Silent Hill? I don't know if it's some commonly used icon but that's the first thing that came to my mind, given the context.
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Sep 11, 2015 20:05
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MGS V the best MGS game is only 80% finished.....incredible.....
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Sep 11, 2015 20:05
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Solid Snake was always the only real hero, even if Big Boss was more interesting. I think that got muddled with MGS3 and Peace Walker because it'd been so long since MG1/2 that it was easy to forget. The Phantom Pain actually addressing that by pointing out Big Boss is a dick is nice, the sort of dick who speaks of a nation of soldiers and world peace and then fucks over Venom and Solid in pursuit of nuclear control. Venom was definitely on board for the plan at first, the question is how he feels in 1995 during MG1. The prologue sets the time for Outer Heaven as "another day in a war without end" which seems pretty damning to me. All the pills and blood and Demon Snake, I think it finally gets to him and the MSX tape orders are the last straw. He was Big Boss's best man, good enough to become him, but in the end he's disposable... Except he's got the one thing Big Boss didn't entrust even to Ocelot or Gray Fox. So I read it as Venom going off script at the end, because if he was still a Big Boss true believer he wouldn't reveal himself to Solid Snake as Big Boss.
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Sep 11, 2015 20:07
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ThePhenomenalBaby posted:MGS V the best MGS game is only 80% finished.....incredible..... Sometimes an unfinished work can be more interesting than if it were finished.
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Sep 11, 2015 20:08
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Like a moron I went to the Metal Gear wiki to look up something about Ground Zeroes save transferring to TPP. I clicked over to the entry for Mother Base not expecting to find any real spoilers. I didn't stop clicking. Well, the cat's out of the bag. I hate the internet so much sometimes.
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Sep 11, 2015 20:10
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Machinegunboyo posted:What bothers me about this is that the Boss ultimately sacrificed herself for her country, whilst Venom is essentially sacrificing himself for one man - Big Boss. Whilst it's a small detail I do feel it makes a big difference in that Venom's plight just seems a lot more trivIal in comparison. Venom would be sacrificing himself for the ideal of Big Boss' soldier country, so that the concept could live on. Gortarius posted:Isn't that Ingsoc.org logo something that has been used in Silent Hill? It's a triquetra, and it is pretty common, yeah. Can't wait to see what the hoaxster says this evening.
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Sep 11, 2015 20:10
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Also it's telling from the Truth tapes that Big Boss feels nothing for Eli whatsoever but Venom gives him tough love and life lessons (at least in the cut mission). Venom is a better father to Eli than his actual dad. Granted he still sucks at it but it isn't his kid so I think he can be excused.
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Sep 11, 2015 20:13
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Gortarius posted:Isn't that Ingsoc.org logo something that has been used in Silent Hill? yeah its the silent hill cult logo. it was used as a save point in silent hill 3. not exact but super close. would'nt be surprised if it turns out kojima managed to walk away with the fox engine and this is P.T rebranded with no dumb name.
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Sep 11, 2015 20:16
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KaiserSchnitzel posted:Like a moron I went to the Metal Gear wiki to look up something about Ground Zeroes save transferring to TPP. I clicked over to the entry for Mother Base not expecting to find any real spoilers. The "twist" is hinted at over and over from the very first seconds of the game onward. Character creation, the AI in Huey's lab, Huey, Skullface calling you "Boss", lots of other lines of dialogue ("the troops won't know what big boss looks like so you have to prove it to them), etc. You're supposed to at least greatly suspect it before it's "revealed". I guess it sucks that you didn't get to figure it out on your own but it's not like a huge pivotal spoiler or anything. Trash Trick fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 20:16
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Vikar Jerome posted:yeah its the silent hill cult logo. it was used as a save point in silent hill 3. not exact but super close. would'nt be surprised if it turns out kojima managed to walk away with the fox engine and this is P.T rebranded with no dumb name. You wouldn't be surprised if a fired developer walked away with a brand-new engine that Konami spent tens of millions of dollars on and will almost assuredly be using in their soccer games and / or licensing off to other devs? That sort of thing doesn't happen. Konami owns the Fox Engine and everything related to it, there is literally zero chance that they fired Kojima and let him walk off with it as a "parting gift." edit: Keep in mind this is the same company that diligently scrubbed the guy's name off of MGSV and sends developers they don't like to mop the floors in their fitness clubs. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 20:26 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 20:22
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:You wouldn't be surprised if a fired developer walked away with a brand-new engine that Konami spent tens of millions of dollars on and will almost assuredly be using in their soccer games and / or licensing off to other devs? That sort of thing doesn't happen. Konami owns the Fox Engine and everything related to it, there is literally zero chance that they fired Kojima and let him walk off with it as a "parting gift." Although I seriously hope the fox engine gets put to good use, the biggest thing that would make a SH spinoff work would be the effort put into it. We have seen time and time again with the recent games that good graphics and smooth controls are actually somewhat detrimental to the series. So even if they break out a cut rate engine there is still a chance of a good game under a different title. Personally I look forward to Quiet Mounds
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Sep 11, 2015 20:26
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:You wouldn't be surprised if a fired developer walked away with a brand-new engine that Konami spent tens of millions of dollars on and will almost assuredly be using in their soccer games and / or licensing off to other devs? That sort of thing doesn't happen. Konami owns the Fox Engine and everything related to it, there is literally zero chance that they fired Kojima and let him walk off with it as a "parting gift." They wouldn't have let him walk off with it, but he's pretty wealthy. If they really want out of the games biz, could've sold it. I don't think that happened, but a year ago I would have said there is literally zero chance Konami would turn on Kojima like this at all.
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Sep 11, 2015 20:28
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On an aside, what do people think of all the Moby Dick references? Ishmael, Ahab, the fire whale, and apparently the boat was named Pequod
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Sep 11, 2015 20:32
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Electromax posted:They wouldn't have let him walk off with it, but he's pretty wealthy. If they really want out of the games biz, could've sold it. The cost to develop the Fox Engine was probably double Kojima's net worth. He isn't *that* wealthy. They are going to hold onto it because they are using in their Pro Evolution Soccer games (including the one that comes out next week). Also what the hell is Kojima going to do with a Fox Engine that he hypothetically bought out of his own pocket? He's just one guy - he isn't the one coding his own games. His entire team is disbanded and they've all gone separate ways. If Kojima wants to keep making games, the only thing that makes sense is to find another studio that is willing to fund his project. There was a rumor about some other big company being in talks to buy out the engine and the IP, which is probably BS, but that makes a lot more sense than Kojima himself somehow buying it. He can't even afford the engine out of his own pocket, let along the cost to assemble a team and develop an entire game afterward. But hell, maybe he's done for a while. Maybe he wants to make a movie or write a book or something, who knows. I just hope he gets to do something he is really passionate about, regardless of the medium. I'll be sad if that means a world with no more crazy Kojima games, but too many people feel like he "owes" them games. Konami is going to use the Fox Engine to churn out lovely carbon-copy soccer games until those aren't profitable anymore, and by then there will be some new engine that is even more impressive. DreamShipWrecked posted:On an aside, what do people think of all the Moby Dick references? Ishmael, Ahab, the fire whale, and apparently the boat was named Pequod There's also Queequeg, the support chopper. The references all tie in thematically with the game's message about the cycle of revenge, and the cost of chasing it at the expense of everything else. There are also references to Lord of the Flies (Eli's conch / pig head, a boy named Ralph being crushed in "an accident," and the cut third area was going to be called the Kingdom of Flies.) Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 20:46
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DreamShipWrecked posted:On an aside, what do people think of all the Moby Dick references? Ishmael, Ahab, the fire whale, and apparently the boat was named Pequod Moby Dick is like the iconic "the folly of revenge" story. It's pretty blunt how it ties to PP. Eli is also LORD OF THE FLIES: THE CHARACTER.
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Sep 11, 2015 20:49
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Clearly Kojima needs to make a new team in the same way Big Boss did Fulton
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Sep 11, 2015 20:50
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DreamShipWrecked posted:On an aside, what do people think of all the Moby Dick references? Ishmael, Ahab, the fire whale, and apparently the boat was named Pequod Pretty good, however, I saw the Medic twist coming way too early and I was quite upset for most of the game that Big Boss wasn't Ahab, as Ahab was the one who led the rest of the crew to their death for his single minded goal. However, as we saw at the end, Big Boss didn't convince Venom Snake of that, so he can't be Ahab. All he was at the end of this game was the guy who survived, Ishmael.
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Sep 11, 2015 20:56
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Unrelated idle question: does Huey know/suspect that Venom Snake isn't really BB? On first contact Huey seems to be confused about Snake at first (though obviously that could also just be shock that "BB" is alive), and after the whole thing in the trial cassette about D-Dog really being a wolf, he has a line to the effect of "The Boss is the same, isn't he?" and in context he could mean that Venom Snake isn't BB or that BB clings to false ideas to keep himself going.
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Sep 11, 2015 20:57
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Valentin posted:Unrelated idle question: does Huey know/suspect that Venom Snake isn't really BB? On first contact Huey seems to be confused about Snake at first (though obviously that could also just be shock that "BB" is alive), and after the whole thing in the trial cassette about D-Dog really being a wolf, he has a line to the effect of "The Boss is the same, isn't he?" and in context he could mean that Venom Snake isn't BB or that BB clings to false ideas to keep himself going. I think Huey has a feeling that something is different or wrong with Big Boss, yeah. Not sure how, though.
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Sep 11, 2015 20:58
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DreamShipWrecked posted:Clearly Kojima needs to make a new team in the same way Big Boss did But what will he do about the former KojiPro employees that are wandering around E3 in a rabid fugue state!!??
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Sep 11, 2015 20:58
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ImpAtom posted:Moby Dick is like the iconic "the folly of revenge" story. It's pretty blunt how it ties to PP. It wasn't even revenge as much as it was "stop another villain threatening world balance who preemptively attacked you purely to reduce resistance to his plan". In fact, it wasn't even a folly since his retarded vocal parasites would kill like a billion people before it would be contained/resolved. Also who knows how much ghost brain damage phantom Skullface would have shown up if Chapter 2 was actually finished instead of filled with hard mode missions.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:04
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lovely Wizard posted:It wasn't even revenge as much as it was "stop another villain threatening world balance who preemptively attacked you purely to reduce resistance to his plan". In fact, it wasn't even a folly since his retarded vocal parasites would kill like a billion people before it would be contained/resolved. They would have killed Skull Face even if his plans was entirely benign. The fact they were stopping a threatening villain was coincidental. You can tell because after they beat him they start manufacturing nuclear weapons themselves. Miller literally begins referencing 1984.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:06
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