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ImpAtom posted:They would have killed Skull Face even if his plans was entirely benign. The fact they were stopping a threatening villain was coincidental. You can tell because after they beat him they start manufacturing nuclear weapons themselves. Yeah, he begins referencing 1984 with the Big Brother style Big Boss posters and codewalker has his whole "eyes on kazuhira", but then nothing happens with it because it feels like they took out a shitload of content where Venom Snake, Miller, and Outer Heaven/Diamond Dogs were supposed to do actual questionable things. Instead they're good guys the entire time and their revenge aligns with being good guys.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:09
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iGestalt posted:I think Huey has a feeling that something is different or wrong with Big Boss, yeah. Not sure how, though. You mean the guy who would hang out and talk about Santa Claus with Huey suddenly being all silent creeper in the corner isn't suspicious somehow? Miller talks about it too that the boss was a bit different. Though Huey is a butt DD is not a wolf.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:10
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lovely Wizard posted:Yeah, he begins referencing 1984 with the Big Brother style Big Boss posters and codewalker has his whole "eyes on kazuhira", but then nothing happens with it because it feels like they took out a shitload of content where Venom Snake, Miller, and Outer Heaven/Diamond Dogs were supposed to do actual questionable things. Instead they're good guys the entire time and their revenge aligns with being good guys. They're uh, self sufficient mercenaries for hire doing wetwork without any care for ideology or morality. They're not good guys.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:12
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Sharkopath posted:They're uh, self sufficient mercenaries for hire doing wetwork without any care for ideology or morality. They're not good guys. Are you telling me the organization based on kidnapping random people and brainwashing them into a cult of personality might not be paragons of virtue?
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Sep 11, 2015 21:13
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Somebody should tell Kojima that Diamond Dogs is actually inspired by different book, even though it was supposed to be for the stage production of 1984.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:15
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Sharkopath posted:They're uh, self sufficient mercenaries for hire doing wetwork without any care for ideology or morality. They're not good guys. Are any of the "paid" missions in the game morally questionable? Most of them seems like the usual "spec ops" stuff, destroying supply lines, taking out key military targets, grabbing intel, stuff like that. The one exception being the mission where you're supposed to assassinate some men, and discover that they're kids, but Miller immediately changes the mission objective when you discover that. Edit: Then there's the whole kidnapping stuff, of course.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:16
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randombattle posted:Though Huey is a butt DD is not a wolf. I love it, but in the entire history of Metal Gear, an encyclopedia of silly things people say, Huey sperging out about DD being a wolf even though they call him a dog is possibly my favourite. Who gives a gently caress? DD is amazing. gently caress you Huey.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:16
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Sharkopath posted:They're uh, self sufficient mercenaries for hire doing wetwork without any care for ideology or morality. They're not good guys. The ones in the main storyline don't do anything evil while the ones doing the paid mercenary stuff and morally grey poo poo are almost entirely (besides the XOF/Cipher contracted missions that we find out are secretly evil and go against, or stuff like when we DIDN'T kill child soldiers as contracted) in the Outer Ops feature, and even then I didn't see anything overtly evil enough from them to remember.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:17
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Why the hell is Huey slandering a superior officer anyway?
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Sep 11, 2015 21:17
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Broseph Brostar posted:Why the hell is Huey slandering a superior officer anyway? randombattle posted:Huey is a butt
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Sep 11, 2015 21:20
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Broseph Brostar posted:Why the hell is Huey slandering a superior officer anyway?
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Sep 11, 2015 21:21
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lovely Wizard posted:Yeah, he begins referencing 1984 with the Big Brother style Big Boss posters and codewalker has his whole "eyes on kazuhira", but then nothing happens with it because it feels like they took out a shitload of content where Venom Snake, Miller, and Outer Heaven/Diamond Dogs were supposed to do actual questionable things. Instead they're good guys the entire time and their revenge aligns with being good guys. There is no point in the game where they are remotely the good guys. The closest is them killing skull face and stopping a war and Miller says that would ruin their business. Like they stop a horrible person but largely out of revenge and profit.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:25
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They should have probably let you kill child soldiers, but at a significant heroism cost or something. Drive the lovely people theme home. That said, the only time I did it at all was when I accidentally left the Sinful Butterfly on Quiet and told her to fire without reading. The kiddo never stood a chance.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:30
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Aurain posted:I love it, but in the entire history of Metal Gear, an encyclopedia of silly things people say, Huey sperging out about DD being a wolf even though they call him a dog is possibly my favourite. Mother Base is a military installation and D.D. loving outranks him so he'd better stand up on his jank-rear end robot legs and give one sweet and sloppy salute.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:31
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I wanted Ocelot to deflect a round off one of the strut supports right into that poo poo wipe's food supply.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:33
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People are trying to justify Diamond Dogs' actions in the context of a war when the game is explicitly saying that war is inherently immoral in the first place. Flying into Afghanistan and mowing down a bunch of Russian peasant conscripts with a chaingun is not an ok thing to do just because "it's a war." Diamond Dogs aren't at war. They aren't there for any ideological reason, or in an attempt to secure their nation's interests / security. They are literally killing people for cash. The very existence of a mercenary army is immoral. There's literally a tape where Kaz is talking about how how these poor villages blowing the poo poo out of each other is good for business. Aside from XOF, the people you spend the entire game exploding into giblets are mostly impoverished soldiers barely out of their teens who had no say in the matter. They didn't choose to be there. In Africa it's even worse, because the implication is that most of them are war orphans / former child soldiers on top of it. Aurain posted:They should have probably let you kill child soldiers, but at a significant heroism cost or something. Drive the lovely people theme home. This would have caused the game to be banned in quite a few countries, and Konami is not about to hobble their sales in like half of Europe so that the game can make a point. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 21:34
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Gentleman Baller posted:Pretty good, however, I saw the Medic twist coming way too early and I was quite upset for most of the game that Big Boss wasn't Ahab, as Ahab was the one who led the rest of the crew to their death for his single minded goal. However, as we saw at the end, Big Boss didn't convince Venom Snake of that, so he can't be Ahab. All he was at the end of this game was the guy who survived, Ishmael. The only part that doesn't quite work is that Quiet's relationship with Venom is more like Ishmael-Queequeeg I guess. So yeah Quiet is Sexy Queequeeg, figure that out.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:36
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ImpAtom posted:There is no point in the game where they are remotely the good guys. The closest is them killing skull face and stopping a war and Miller says that would ruin their business. Like they stop a horrible person but largely out of revenge and profit. The gently caress, they're good guys constantly, even though the story tries to paint them as evil. They take up jobs like rescuing animals and removing mines while not killing soldiers and actually offering them a chance to join Outer Heaven/Diamond Dogs, and considering the fact that no soldiers just disappear from the brig into a burial at sea I think they actually want to join the supposed best mercenary/soldier in the world with whatever he does. Miller doesn't count for poo poo considering he's veto'd by Ocelot or Venom Snake constantly. He's like Worf from Star Trek where nobody listens to him at all even though he's in a rank where people should actually listen to him constantly. I don't think they did a single thing bad outside of the torturing, and even then one torturing was about a potential mass death plague (even though Quiet wouldn't talk) and the other was about Huey the piece of poo poo. They even take in children to educate them on how to do basic jobs to keep them from being child soldiers and keep them safe (remember that Eli was the one that killed the one kid and tried to chlorine gas the other, not some shoddy motherbase construction). There is virtually nothing evil unless you choose to play evil with flamethrowers and murder sprees, and the game itself heavily guides you not to do so via research requirements and needed soldiers for outer ops.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:37
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:People are trying to justify Diamond Dogs' actions in the context of a war when the game is explicitly saying that war is inherently immoral in the first place. Flying into Afghanistan and mowing down a bunch of Russian peasant conscripts with a chaingun is not an ok thing to do just because "it's a war." Diamond Dogs aren't at war. They aren't there for any ideological reason, or in an attempt to secure their nation's interests / security. They are literally killing people for cash. The very existence of a mercenary army is immoral. There's literally a tape where Kaz is talking about how how these poor villages blowing the poo poo out of each other is good for business. Aren't most of the guys in Africa white South Africans?
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Sep 11, 2015 21:40
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Yeah, the whole "everyone is evil" thing rings pretty hollow outside the whole cult of personality aspect. My (and most people) Venom tranquilized everyone he could find and only actually killed when they were very actively trying to kill him first. Hell, you even get heroism deductions for killing soldiers in the FOB missions. Add that on top of the humanitarian missions and they aren't that bad. Now you could be a mass murdering psychopath and actually kill everyone you came across, but it seems that few people have taken that choice.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:42
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It seems a mistake of the game to have "Chapter 1" and "Chapter 2". "Chapter 1" is 32 missions long and contains the entire arc against Skull Face. "Chapter 2" is 9 missions long, and along with 10 redux missions, is an extended epilogue to the game. You're setting yourself up for claims of cut-content if you pace the chapter-length that way, unless Hideo Kojima is a fan of At Swim-Two Birds which had chapter 1 and no chapter 2.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:43
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ToxicAcne posted:Aren't most of the guys in Africa white South Africans?
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Sep 11, 2015 21:43
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lovely Wizard posted:I don't think they did a single thing bad outside of the torturing, and even then one torturing was about a potential mass death plague (even though Quiet wouldn't talk) and the other was about Huey the piece of poo poo. They take on hired assassination missions for money. DreamShipWrecked posted:Add that on top of the humanitarian missions and they aren't that bad. Yes they loving are. Jesus christ.  You know who else did humanitarian missions? Blackwater. It is good PR to do them. Miller says this aloud.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:43
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I Fulton'd until my base was full and then murdered the christalmighty poo poo out of people because it was easier/more entertaining, y'all are sissies.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:43
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Oxxidation posted:I Fulton'd until my base was full and then murdered the christalmighty poo poo out of people because it was easier/more entertaining, y'all are sissies. You enjoy all the killing, don't you
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Sep 11, 2015 21:45
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ImpAtom posted:They take on hired assassination missions for money. My Venom Snake (and most others) rescued potential assassination targets and even told the people commissioning them that the target died, saving them from a second less forgiving assassin.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:47
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This has been probably brought up a bunch, but listening to the lyrics of "The Man Who Sold the World" and how it was a giant hint about the twist put a smile on my face.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:48
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lovely Wizard posted:My Venom Snake (and most others) rescued potential assassination targets and even told the people commissioning them that the target died, saving them from a second less forgiving assassin. Oh, so you took on hired assassination missions for money and then recruited people, many of whom are in fact rather terrible people, into your private mercenary army where you sent them on missions for you.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:48
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ImpAtom posted:Oh, so you took on hired assassination missions for money and then recruited people, many of whom are in fact rather terrible people, into your private mercenary army where you sent them on missions for you. Oh so you're claiming it's bad for Venom Snake to have taken the assassination attempts on before, but now it's bad to rescue them from assassinations. You're less consistent than the game's story. The game does literally everything possible to reward you for not playing like a villain. If they made the demon stat displayable and made the mercenaries that join you have negative traits (like the PTSD one) but much higher stats than heroism recruits, or added outer ops that were more villainous with better rewards (but also increased your demon stat), maybe it'd make sense, but the game does nothing to encourage you to be evil.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:50
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lovely Wizard posted:Oh so you're claiming it's bad for Venom Snake to have taken the assassination attempts on before, but now it's bad to rescue them from assassinations. You're less consistent than the game's story. It is almost like both things are bad. Taking on an assassination and 'merely' kidnapping someone and inducting them into your illegal nuclear-equipped private army is not actually a choice between good and bad. lovely Wizard posted:The game does literally everything possible to reward you for not playing like a villain. If they made the demon stat displayable and made the mercenaries that join you have negative traits (like the PTSD one) but much higher stats than heroism recruits, or added outer ops that were more villainous with better rewards (but also increased your demon stat), maybe it'd make sense, but the game does nothing to encourage you to be evil. You are playing as an illegal private military contractor who wants to form his own nuclear-equipped private military nation so he can take on wetwork jobs for profit. You are not choosing between 'good and evil' at any point in the game. That is in fact a point of the game. You are not a good person. You are teamed up with Master "Kinda Psycho" Miller and Revolver "Literally Loves Torture" Ocelot, the latter of whom is probably the most moral person in your army. The least-evil things you can do involve kidnapping soldiers and holding them hostage until they agree to join your private army and betray their homelands, family and friends. The fact that the guy you're fighting has an insane ethnic cleansing operation doesn't suddenly make you the good guy. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 21:51
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Venom tries to keep himself grounded, but can't really pull it off. Even the plan to give the kids a proper education and job skills is said with an unsure air.
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Sep 11, 2015 21:55
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Funky Valentine posted:Venom tries to keep himself grounded, but can't really pull it off. Even the plan to give the kids a proper education and job skills is said with an unsure air. Even that plan is actually more Miller. Venom's lines are more like "he's a natural soldier!"
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Sep 11, 2015 21:55
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Aurain posted:I love it, but in the entire history of Metal Gear, an encyclopedia of silly things people say, Huey sperging out about DD being a wolf even though they call him a dog is possibly my favourite. [dogfacts] They put enough attention to detail in DD that there's plenty of obvious characteristics that make it clear he's a dog and not a wolf. His proportions are too off for a wolf, his ears are too thin, his head too small, and whatnot but the clearest sign is that he has the bobbing gait of dog and not the stable gait of a wolf. When a dog runs they will move their heads and body up and down as they run but wolves will maintain a fairly level posture as they run. DD has the tell tale bobbing motion that points out clearly that Huey is a butt. [/dogfacts]
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Sep 11, 2015 21:58
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redreader posted:"moenie my vir 'n poephol vat nie!". Subtitle: "you're not fooling anyone"
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Sep 11, 2015 21:59
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randombattle posted:[dogfacts] They put enough attention to detail in DD that there's plenty of obvious characteristics that make it clear he's a dog and not a wolf. His proportions are too off for a wolf, his ears are too thin, his head too small, and whatnot but the clearest sign is that he has the bobbing gait of dog and not the stable gait of a wolf. When a dog runs they will move their heads and body up and down as they run but wolves will maintain a fairly level posture as they run. DD has the tell tale bobbing motion that points out clearly that Huey is a butt. [/dogfacts] That is legitimately interesting to know!
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Sep 11, 2015 22:02
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If you want a story where the main protagonist becomes the main antagonist, watch Breaking Bad. The show was planned with that mission in mind from the start and they do it extremely well. The biggest question about Breaking Bad to me, and where its real worth lies, is after its all done asking "when do you think Walter really became a bad guy?"
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Sep 11, 2015 22:02
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ImpAtom posted:You are not a good person. You are teamed up with Master "Kinda Psycho" Miller and Revolver "Literally Loves Torture" Ocelot, the latter of whom is probably the most moral person in your army. Miller - "I invented the War Economy and don't see why this is a bad thing. Also I'm really loving paranoid about the mute living in our basement." Ocelot - "Look, I get an erection from torture, but at least I do it quick and get results, right? ...Right?" Code Talker - "I was planning to use the parasites in the exact same way Skull Face did, but for a mildly nobler cause." Huey - "I'M A WALKING PIECE OF poo poo" Eli - see also: MGS1 ImpAtom posted:Even that plan is actually more Miller. Venom's lines are more like "he's a natural soldier!" "Look, I was raised by a traumatized career soldier and I turned out fine!" *everyone else goes quiet as the final piece of the puzzle that is Big Boss falls right into place*
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Sep 11, 2015 22:03
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ImpAtom posted:It is almost like both things are bad. Taking on an assassination and 'merely' kidnapping someone and inducting them into your illegal nuclear-equipped private army is not actually a choice between good and bad. By passing on the contract they die, and by taking on the assassination you do something that would have occurred anyway. One of the actions is less evil than the other, with them dying being the default. Also keep in mind they need a Nuke because there's a secret global shadow council with like a trillion dollars hiring mercenaries to research evil bond villainesque schemes around the clock (keep in mind that the language parasite was just one of many passed on schemes) that you need to have a deterrent against. ImpAtom posted:You are playing as an illegal private military contractor who wants to form his own nuclear-equipped private military nation so he can take on wetwork jobs for profit. You are not choosing between 'good and evil' at any point in the game. That is in fact a point of the game. ImpAtom posted:You are not a good person. You are teamed up with Master "Kinda Psycho" Miller and Revolver "Literally Loves Torture" Ocelot, the latter of whom is probably the most moral person in your army. The least-evil things you can do involve kidnapping soldiers and holding them hostage until they agree to join your private army and betray their homelands, family and friends. The fact that the guy you're fighting has an insane ethnic cleansing operation doesn't suddenly make you the good guy.
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Sep 11, 2015 22:04
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The fact that Big Boss is explicitly trying to create a world of literal never-ending, globe-spanning war is really all you need to know. The fact that people are buying into the exact same "legend of Big Boss" that puts the world into a death-spiral later in the series is hilarious. Yes, you can play your Big Boss non-lethally and it kind of doesn't mesh perfectly with the story Kojima is telling. Welcome to one of the big arguments that comes up in the "are video games art" debate. It's almost impossible to tell an internally consistent, linear story when you are affording players the kind of freedom this game does. But it does literally everything possible to point out that no matter how you play, Diamond Dogs and Big Boss are doing hosed up things. They could have taken away all the non-lethal gameplay elements and really hammered it in, sure. But this a *game* above all else, and they went the route of giving you way more varied gameplay options at the cost of a slightly dissonant narrative, while still doing their best to point out in the most explicit terms possible that you are not a good guy. The MGS games could not be any more blunt about it. With the amount of times they say, almost word for word, "hey all this eternal warfare and suffering stuff is maybe not a good thing, and all these people getting wrapped up in Big Boss' vision are kind of blind to the truth, and hey there are no heroes in war, and hey wanting to create a borderless world united under a single army is completely crazy and doesn't even make sense," it is really amazing how many people just flat-out do not get it. It's like the most surface reading of the series you could possibly do. It's like all the people that watched Breaking Bad and thought Walt did nothing wrong. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Sep 11, 2015 |
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Sep 11, 2015 22:04
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Intel&Sebastian posted:The biggest question about Breaking Bad to me, and where its real worth lies, is after its all done asking "when do you think Walter really became a bad guy?" The biggest shock to me upon watching that show is that there is a surprising segment of people whose answer to that is "never." That said, the sort of Breaking Bad "a guy becomes worse and worse in understandable ways." is really what I suspect Kojima wanted, if not what he pulled off.
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