|
I also constantly hear the Afrikaans "fok" gently caress used often without being translated.
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:04
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 00:17 |
|
|
I don't know man I think killing a lot of people is bad even if those people are Russians
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:05
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Even that plan is actually more Miller. Venom's lines are more like "he's a natural soldier!" It's funny that revenge-obsessed crazy man Kazuhira Miller has to be the one to tell Venom "Hey, let's not literally turn these kids into guns for hire for our nuclear equipped mercenary business". It paints a pretty poor picture of the dude.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:05
|
|
|
Nakar posted:It actually sort of makes sense in that Ishmael, while the "main character" of the novel, is pretty much just a sideline observer and commentator to Ahab's vengeance quest. Ahab is by far the most important character in the actual story, but there's nothing that complex about his actual actions, all of which are focused on hunting down the whale at any cost. I think some people have argued before that there's more to Ishmael's role in Moby-Dick than his narration lets on too. Also "Ishmael" is a fabricated name, which makes his character even more of a cipher because he only tells the reader what he wants them to know about himself. Ahab is also the captain of a ship full of people from every nation who speak every language, just like Venom's Mother Base. So it actually kinda makes sense that the Big Boss is Ishmael; he's the one pretending he's on the outside looking in when he's as caught up in it as the rest of them. I feel like invoking a novel like Moby Dick and then assigning names based on such shallow things or rare interpretations would be a bit of a mistake. Not saying that it isn't what Kojima did of course.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:06
|
|
|
lovely Wizard posted:By passing on the contract they die, and by taking on the assassination you do something that would have occurred anyway. That doesn't make it moral. "Well, someone else would have killed them" doesn't make it not lovely. lovely Wizard posted:They're in the middle of the god drat sea, are we talking american illegal or world illegal or something. It is a literal plot point that what they are doing would cause countries around the world to turn on them. (Even companies that made use of their services.) lovely Wizard posted:You're constantly good considering the bullshit over the top villains you go up against. Big Boss is literally not meaningfully different from those over-the-top villains. In fact he and Venom both literally become one of those villains. He has his own supervillain lair in the middle of the ocean with scientists making super-weapons for him to use. The fact that Skull Face is also evil is underlined by the fact that Skull Face *also* thinks he is doing the justified thing. He is also trying to kill Cypher (and in fact is the one who largely succeeds in doing so.) He is also trying to create a new world and thinks he is living up to the Boss' ideals. The fact that Big Boss uses tranq guns doesn't change this because it just means he's going about it a different way. lovely Wizard posted:The soldiers are literally helping out with a world domination scheme (knowingly or unknowingly) so converting them to the religion of Big Boss is a plus over whatever they're doing now to the entire world. You, uh, do know Big Boss goes on to enact a world domination scheme, right? ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Sep 11, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:06
|
|
|
Big Boss doesn't figure out that "oh hey I'm loving crazy" until he's literally dying on The Boss's grave.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:08
|
|
|
I almost wish they had taken away all the non-lethal guns so it would be like MGS1, except even then people wouldn't get it. Like that game literally tells you point blank that there's no such thing as a hero on a battlefield, and that Snake only feels fulfilled on the battlefield, and that the legend doesn't match up to reality. The absolute minimum number of people you can murder in MGS1 is like 32 people, and even then people play it and just go "oh that Snake, he's just being modest."
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:09
|
|
|
Minorkos posted:I don't know man I think killing a lot of people is bad even if those people are Russians big boss ain't no murderer, he puts those poor russian kids to sleep and sends them to his clubhouse. now those kikongo speakers, on the other hand, we go fuckin loud on
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:10
|
|
|
Grizzled Patriarch posted:The fact that Big Boss is explicitly trying to create a world of literal never-ending, globe-spanning war is really all you need to know. The fact that people are buying into the exact same "legend of Big Boss" that puts the world into a death-spiral later in the series is hilarious. The thing is though fighting nonlethally doesn't magically make fighting, kidnapping, and conscripting people any more noble than murdering people. You're still forcing people into the eternal war of Big Boss and everyone went along with it because that's what you do in games. Big Boss is fighting to keep his war going and destroying anything that challenges his vision of the world.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:10
|
|
|
randombattle posted:The thing is though fighting nonlethally doesn't magically make fighting, kidnapping, and conscripting people any more noble than murdering people. You're still forcing people into the eternal war of Big Boss and everyone went along with it because that's what you do in games. Big Boss is fighting to keep his war going and destroying anything that challenges his vision of the world. I agree 100%, I'm just talking about the people saying "well my Big Boss never killed anyone  " The game is so incredibly up-front about Big Boss not being a good guy and people just refuse to see it.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:12
|
|
|
I think a large part of the confusion is that Kojima's vision does not support the idea of a "necessary evil". The idea that killing is bad, but if it saves other lives then it is more okay isn't part of the equation. If you murder then you are bad, flat out. Granted what BB does in the future is cruel and insane, but what happens in game is a bunch of dudes being paid to perform tasks in a war zone in the most ethical way they can, but with the tools that they have there is only so much they can do. It strikes a bit hypocritical for the game giving Snake poo poo for things like killing Skull Face when the enemies were basically Bond Villians, including all the members of XOF. I can see the argument for not hurting the random outpost foot soldiers, but there were a hell of a lot of people in this game that weren't going to try and stop blowing up the world out of civic mindedness and diplomacy.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:13
|
|
|
It's really easy for developers to go "oh, well, you were non-lethal, so that is more moral." It happens in games and it can be really weird. Dishonored offers nonlethal options which include: Getting someone branded and their life ruined, selling them into slavery, and in one horrifying case kidnapping a woman and selling her to a man who has a fixation on her and promises 'nobody will ever see her again.' These are nonlethal. That doesn't make them not-lovely even if the game says it is. And unlike Dishonored, MGS slams it into your face that what you're doing isn't Good Guy Stuff even if it is against bad guys. Even Rising sticks to this point and Rising is a game about cutting robots in half while totally sweet buttrock plays and the final boss is Dick Cheney.DreamShipWrecked posted:I think a large part of the confusion is that Kojima's vision does not support the idea of a "necessary evil". Nah. It does. It just emphasizes the idea that performing a 'necessary evil' doesn't suddenly make you not doing something evil. All the villains in the franchise thing they are part of a necessary evil. Cyper, Revolver Ocelot, Solidus, even frigging Skull Face think they are doing evil acts that are necessary and even justified. The point Kojima tries to make is that necessary evil doesn't absolve you. Solid Snake did what he had to do because it was necessary. It doesn't change the fact he killed people and probably enjoyed killing people. Metal Gear Rising isn't Kojima but it hits the same note. Raiden is a hosed-up child soldier who takes delight in killing and even if he turns that hosed-up kill urges towards a theoretically good purpose that doesn't make him, personally, not hosed up. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Sep 11, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:14
|
|
|
You are all misunderstanding one simple thing. War, Kidnapping, Murder, Big Tits, Hitler, and other things like that, are all really good.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:14
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:That doesn't make it moral. "Well, someone else would have killed them" doesn't make it not lovely. At worst their action is neutral if the target is a less than stellar person, and at best their action is good if they were hired to kill someone who wasn't a total shitbag. Look away and pretend it isn't happening isn't a constructive solution. ImpAtom posted:It is a literal plot point that what they are doing would cause countries around the world to turn on them. (Even companies that made use of their services.) It's also a plot point that these nations would like some Skullface nukes to make their nation feel just as big as America and Russia, so nuts to them. ImpAtom posted:Big Boss is literally not meaningfully different from those over-the-top villains. In fact he and Venom both literally become one of those villains. He has his own supervillain lair in the middle of the ocean with scientists making super-weapons for him to use. The fact that Skull Face is also evil is underlined by the fact that Skull Face *also* thinks he is doing the justified thing. He is also trying to kill Cypher (and in fact is the one who largely succeeds in doing so.) He is also trying to create a new world and thinks he is living up to the Boss' ideals. If only we saw the actions that made it go from "building a place for soldiers to 'exist' as mercenaries and not get killed for bullshit politics reasons like the Boss" to global war machine, because those weren't in MGSV . If anything, this actually makes MG2 Big Boss look better since he took over some shithole russian controlled area named Zanzibar after rescuing the refugees/MG1 survivors/child soldiers that NATO was killing to make his MG2 outer heaven in Zanzibar, and considering how lovely the world's leaders are in the metal gear universe (even the ones not controlled by AI's), Big Boss even looks cleaner if we're just looking at him for a moment and not Venom.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:16
|
|
|
You don't need to see it unfold and get spelled out because it's completely self-evident that it's a dumb idea. How does united the world under a single army make any kind of sense? If the world is united, it doesn't need an army. It's as ludicrous as Cipher trying to unite the world by controlling everyone's thoughts, and as hopeless as the Boss' dream of a world where everyone puts down their guns and respects the will of their fellow man. All of their dreams are impossible and they all go to poo poo. You do see what happens when Big Boss tries to make "a place for soldiers to exist" - it ends up becoming a nuclear-equipped totalitarian mercenary haven hiding from the world in the middle of the ocean, killing anyone and everyone for a buck. His dream, flat out, is to create a war that will never end. The very first shot you see when starting this game says this with zero ambiguity. There is not, under any circumstances, a situation where "creating a never-ending war" is not a lovely, hosed up, evil thing to want. He tries to create his ideal world three times and each time it ends the same exact way, because, guess what, his dream is loving insane. They are not some pure warriors tragically being held back from their life's calling by the world's governments. They are cutthroats that can't even fathom any life that doesn't revolve around spilling blood. It's like some weird "noble savage" thing where everyone sees them as this idealized, romanticized vision of the ur-soldiers, untouched by civilization and pure of heart. That's the legend that the game is trying to dispel. That's the thought process that leads directly to the dystoptian hell on earth that you see in MGS4. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Sep 11, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:23
|
|
|
I really want to see the games from the perspective of The Boss's ghost now. She misspeaks to the most literal person on the planet, and now her geriatric son and grandson are having a shirtless fistfight on top of a giant horseshoe crab.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:25
|
|
|
I think you guys have the cart before the horse on the ethics of the fulton->volunteer process. It's clearly gameplay and not narrative driven. And on top of everything else there appears to be a policy allowing adults to leave if they want as evidenced by the offer to Eli. If there was really supposed to be a question as to whether or not the fultoning process is part of demoning then you shouldn't get heroism for it, and there should be at least one person on motherbase saying "dang...i sure miss my kids". But they don't. They all love it on MB.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:26
|
|
|
Intel&Sebastian posted:I think you guys have the cart before the horse on the ethics of the fulton->volunteer process. It's clearly gameplay and not narrative driven. And on top of everything else there appears to be a policy allowing adults to leave if they want as evidenced by the offer to Eli. A good percentage of the people you fulton and put into the brig where Miller says he'll 'convince them' to join you and they remain there until they do.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:28
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:A good percentage of the people you fulton and put into the brig where Miller says he'll 'convince them' to join you and they remain there until they do. But afterwards the fact remains: they're happy and can leave. The only person who stays indefinitely is Quiet. And even she's in love with the boss. AT best he's poaching PF employees. At worst big boss is deporting people for getting in his way and offering them asylum for their troubles. Still sucks but not even the actual gameplay or narrative support the idea that fultoning is actually an extremely evil act in the world of MGS. My point: Big Boss's supernatural charisma and "legend" aura are established ideas in MG that explain why people abandon their poo poo and join, not some kind of evil brainwashing. Everything else is still a pretty deft commentary on what BB/Venom became and did, while justifying it to himself, but fultoning isn't part of it. Not intentionally anyway. Intel&Sebastian fucked around with this message at 22:35 on Sep 11, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:32
|
|
|
On a completely unrelated note, only 3 hours to go before we get to watch the delicious tears of all the Blackhound conspiracists. I really want to see the reaction of the guy that has been meticulously organizing all of the "clues" and updating that reddit page for like a month, with such indisputable evidence as "some guy at Konami responded to my crazy theory on twitter with a question mark."Intel&Sebastian posted:But afterwards the fact remains: they're happy and can leave. Considering all the 1984 references, they are probably "happy" in the same sense that someone whose will is broken until they genuinely believe they love Big Brother is happy. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 22:36 on Sep 11, 2015 |
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:34
|
|
|
3 hours until Big Boss is released as Smash Bros. DLC.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:34
|
|
|
Intel&Sebastian posted:But afterwards the fact remains: they're happy and can leave. And remember that they actually do leave Motherbase if your poo poo goes in the red so it's not like they have some amazing mind-control/torture system, so as long as they got a paycheck they'd rather fight with the legendary Big Boss.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:34
|
|
|
Well in MY game venom snake killed everyone and killed the children and was really evil so there.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:36
|
|
|
I don't know man I got a family back home and I'm a certified doctor but on the other hand this "Bad Boss" guy has a really cool cyborg arm and an eyepatch?? I think I'll stick with him for the remainder of my life
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:37
|
|
|
I'm institution a new policy on Mother Base. Everyone who wants to leave is free to do so but also I shoot them in the back of the head. I run Mother Base in the game so this is canon.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:38
|
|
|
Minorkos posted:I don't know man I got a family back home and I'm a certified doctor but on the other hand this "Bad Boss" guy has a really cool cyborg arm and an eyepatch?? I think I'll stick with him for the remainder of my life "Man my homeland of the Russia pays me 5 groopols and a pile of wheatloaf a week, but Big Boss's army pays me like $60,000 a year and has a 1 doctor for every 5 people." You're now also aware that Big Boss has 1 doctor/medic for every 5 soldiers.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:39
|
|
|
Even if literally every person in Mother Base would have happily joined that still doesn't make it good. They are joining up with a private wetwork company to fight a never-ending war, probably for profit since some will ditch you if they can't get paid.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:39
|
|
|
lovely Wizard posted:And remember that they actually do leave Motherbase if your poo poo goes in the red so it's not like they have some amazing mind-control/torture system, so as long as they got a paycheck they'd rather fight with the legendary Big Boss. Forgot about that. I run a tight, profitable ship.  Speaking of which i only just now discovered i can sell materials. I hit a GMP hard cieling at like 50 mil or something? I just remember a lot pf 0's after 5 and a spending spree.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:39
|
|
|
"When I played him Venom Snake extracted everyone and never killed anyone and petted all the dogs so he's actually really a good guy."
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:40
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:Even if literally every person in Mother Base would have happily joined that still doesn't make it good. They are joining up with a private wetwork company to fight a never-ending war, probably for profit since some will ditch you if they can't get paid. Yeah, i don't mean to say theyre good or Venom is good. Just that you arent playing some kind of secret hidden narrative of the willfully blind kidnapper and his brainwashing cult like the discussion here started sounding like.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:43
|
|
|
Funky Britches posted:"When I played him Venom Snake extracted everyone and never killed anyone and petted all the dogs so he's actually really a good guy." The game does literally everything it can to get you to play like a good guy short of a game over for being a bad guy via motherbase staff benefits/upgrades. Otherwise you'll be waiting for your level 1 helicopter to pick you up for several minutes while you use some gun a afghan guy slapped together in a cave with other old expired gun parts in default camo. All the while shooting people in the head after you shoot them in the legs for the sake of evil.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:45
|
|
|
Motherbase in general is just really messed up. It was an idea born from Miller's dream, and his dream has pretty much always been the creation of a PMC. You know the things that MGS4 and Rising presented as hella hosed up and needed to be brought down? It's just, by design really, an incredibly bad idea and has never at any point been presented in a morally good light.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:46
|
|
|
Intel&Sebastian posted:Forgot about that. I run a tight, profitable ship. as far as the base is concerned peace walker went fairly in-depth on soldier's lives there and it's a shame we can't see it replicated in this game
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:46
|
|
|
lovely Wizard posted:The game does literally everything it can to get you to play like a good guy short of a game over for being a bad guy via motherbase staff benefits/upgrades. Otherwise you'll be waiting for your level 1 helicopter to pick you up for several minutes while you use some gun a afghan guy slapped together in a cave with other old expired gun parts in default camo. All the while shooting people in the head after you shoot them in the legs for the sake of evil. The game still shits volunteers on you, the lack of heroism just gives them slightly worse stats.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:48
|
|
|
Broseph Brostar posted:The game still shits volunteers on you, the lack of heroism just gives them slightly worse stats. Bioshock 1 tried to paint harvesting/not harvesting little sisters as an actual choice but not harvesting gave like 10% less ADAM total as well as exclusive abilities which were way worth the like 20 ADAM. MGSV does something similar, where you can go demon or stay good, but being good gives you so many benefits (way more than the Bioshock 1 example) its simply not worth it to go Rambo unless you're backed into a corner. Even then you can sort of retain the action gameplay by using stun/tranq weapons like riot SMG or stun shotgun.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 22:59
|
|
|
Killing/not killing is not the same as evil/good.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 23:00
|
|
|
lovely Wizard posted:Bioshock 1 tried to paint harvesting/not harvesting little sisters as an actual choice but not harvesting gave like 10% less ADAM total as well as exclusive abilities which were way worth the like 20 ADAM. It's also ridiculously hard to go full demon without a nuke. There's no penalty or anything for the demon rating though so it's not really comparable.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 23:01
|
|
|
Canonically, Venom builds nukes.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 23:02
|
|
|
randombattle posted:It's also ridiculously hard to go full demon without a nuke. There's no penalty or anything for the demon rating though so it's not really comparable. I went full demon from pretty much killing all the e-rank soldiers people flooded their FOB's with, because FOB mode heavily encourages killing everything unlike the main game. ImpAtom posted:Killing/not killing is not the same as evil/good. Do you change tracks of a runaway train and kill one person to save five?
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 23:03
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 31, 2024 00:17 |
|
|
Intel&Sebastian posted:Speaking of which i only just now discovered i can sell materials. I hit a GMP hard cieling at like 50 mil or something? I just remember a lot pf 0's after 5 and a spending spree. 5 million is the maximum amount of GMP you can have. By end game, you can pretty much coast around that figure by selling your useless resources (Biological Material, Common Metal), which maxes out at 200,000.
|
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2015 23:11
|
|
