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ImpAtom posted:No. Not even remotely close. I've spent an awful lot of time watching DD destroy men for me so I wouldn't say it's not close.
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Sep 12, 2015 08:32
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Yeah, although I'd clarify and elaborate on each one, Discendo Vox's list all ring true for this game.
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Sep 12, 2015 08:34
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i played 68 hours and enjoyed at least 60 of them so it's got that going for it at least
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Sep 12, 2015 08:50
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I mean at the end of the day TPP is a much, much better *game* than Watch Dogs, which is what matters most to me. The vast majority of AAA games are just soulless, bland copies of each other at this point, so I'd rather take something really fun and unique and not quite finished than another "complete" open world Ubisoft game or something. This game has given me more entertainment value than anything else I can think of in recent memory, and I'm not even tired of it yet.
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Sep 12, 2015 08:57
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In It For The Tank posted:Yeah, although I'd clarify and elaborate on each one, Discendo Vox's list all ring true for this game. Snark aside, the game is by no means Watch_Dogs bad, of course. Both share really fundamental problems caused by a) Narrative threads that don't cohere (Kojima had a bunch of Things To Say with this game that don't really have much to do with the larger themes of the series, so he did half of each-Watchdogs I don't even know- a season DVD of the Wire or something) b) Mid-development alterations- (major cuts in the case of MGSV and some sort of script merger or major rewrite in Watch_Dogs) c) Game mechanic obligations that drew resources and design focus from core gameplay (open world and invasions in common, but again this is partly a casualty of budgeting in MGSV and incompetence in W_D, which had a full chess engine for some reason) d) Moral framing dissonance- both games have a major narrative conceit that Your Character is a Bad Person(or at least morally dubious)- but at the same time they don't commit to the player Being a Bad Person or actually having the player Do Bad Things- if they did, there would be a risk of a The Line outcome, where playing the game is unpleasant, or a GTA problem, where people like doing terrible things and the plot can't easily be meaningful. So they try to do both- make the player do things that are fully justified in their gameplay actions (killing doomed infected soldiers, doing mercenary work exclusively against Soviets, South African PMCs and HYDRA, hacking public systems to stop a giant corporate conspiracy), but then still using narrative(especially voiceover and cutscene work) to say that the player is bad for doing these things. Given that your ingame actions are easily justifiable, the narrative shaming feels hollow and incoherent. How dare you...save the world? Stop the Chicago mafia? Metal Gear always suffers from this problem to some extent because it has both the serious and ridiculous in tension. I think, though, that the open world format makes that tension harder to bear- it's hard to give a sense of consequences when you don't have linear narrative branches that can clearly dictate outcomes of your ethical decisions, and the player's order of actions is hard to predict. Enter secondary "morality systems" to provide reversible in-game consequences for your moral actions. It's quite possible we would've seen a much better exploration of the descent and moral conflict involved with Venom Snake had the entire game been written out- maybe we would've gotten there. There are elements that suggest an awareness of how something like that could work in the semi-complete features that we got- but on the other hand, Quiet and MGSIV don't exactly fill me with confidence. I guess I find this comparison interesting because I'm wondering if we're going to see more games with these problems- if they're the result of common trends or practices that will keep influencing what we get to play, be it by Ubisoft, or by Activision, which has expressed an interest in purchasing IP rights to the Metal Gear franchise (not really). vvvvv I am in full agreement-(I'm much more on the story side, which is a factor with Snoop_Snoopys and MGSV in particular). I hope other developers (and directors) take note and we see some reversal in this open world AAA mess trend sometime soon. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 09:29 on Sep 12, 2015 |
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Sep 12, 2015 09:05
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Some of the those problems are just inherent to games that give you a lot of choice (how can you really tell a consistent, linear story in an open world game where you can go anywhere and do anything at any time? Especially if the player character's morality is at a part of the story) and some of them are just things you pretty much have to expect out of gigantic projects with hundreds and hundreds of people working on them and tens of millions being pumped into development / marketing. At the end of the day a lot of people forget that funding a video game isn't some kind of "patron of the arts" situation. Executives absolutely *will* do whatever the hell they think stands to make them the most money, whether that means tightening the screws on budget / time or just pushing something half-finished out to make sure they break even if they start getting worried. I don't see those problems diminishing as games continue to get bigger and more complex and more expensive. People expect bigger and better, always. Open world games have become almost the expectation (to my great displeasure) and there's this weird obsession with creating entire virtual worlds that you can spend hundreds of hours walking around in, except there's never enough to do to justify it. It's probably just not feasible to create a huge open world that doesn't get boring relatively quickly; either it ends up being barren and repetitive, or it's procedurally generated (which has its own whole host of issues), or the budget and man hours behind it are titanic in scale. I'm glad we got a psuedo-open-world MGS, though honestly I'd like to have seen them try a hub-and-spokes style game where you scale things down and maintain the open-ended approaches to objectives while having even more environments with even more individual care put into them. It won't ever happen now, but oh well. TPP is a flawed game, just like every game ever made, but there are very few games that actually approach it in terms of actual gameplay. I can live with everything else because my expectations for video games as a story-telling medium are very low. That's not what I play games for, and probably never will. edit: Also I don't even think TPP has a bad story. It's quite good for what it is. There are holes and unfinished bits, but it's a solid, self-contained story with some much deeper themes / topics of discussion than most games, and considering how much storytelling baggage comes with trying to adhere to the canon of a 30-year-old, completely interlocking franchise (does any series of games even come close on this front?), I think they did a pretty drat good job overall. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 09:35 on Sep 12, 2015 |
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Sep 12, 2015 09:24
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ShineDog posted:What saddens me In a series full of parallels they didn't do boss/big boss one very well. I think the parallel is there, but it isn't about Big Boss/The Boss. At the end of the Truth we see Big Boss sacrifice his ideals. In the same way that The Boss was ordered to do so, Venom Snake is ordered, by his superior, to sacrifice his life for the mission, and while he doesn't do it like The Boss did, he does make the decision to lay down his life for a noble reason. He dies and is considered a villain by history but his last act was to make the world a better place, to fight against people who would use their soldiers like this and hope it doesn't happen again.
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Sep 12, 2015 09:37
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:Naked Snake: in the end, she put down her gun... and when she did... she rejected everything in her life up to that point, including me. None of these quotes declare an explicit, or even an implicit plan to create a state of permanent war. Combined with your previous imaginary quote I now actually understand what's going on here. You're passionately defending the existence of your expanded universe "headcanon" Big Boss, and that's why you're so exasperated when I keep asking for citations. Isn't it obvious Big Boss is trying to create an eternal war?? He says it in every single game! All the time! Explicitly! For God's sake, have you read the wiki..?! What we're dealing with here is a failure to read. Big Boss grand plan isn't to unify the world so he can instigate permanent war so that soldiers will never go obsolete. Not only is this not a stated goal, but in order to have permanent war Big Boss has to do nothing. The "global" world of permanent routine war already exists. It's an integral part of the military industrial complex. The same complex that Cipher is trying to expand until it controls everything. Soldiers are already never going to be obsolete. So why is Big Boss opposed to Ciphers plans? Why does he keep building Metal Gears? If you want to read the text you can't just default to pre-conceived fan notions with no actual support. You have to dare to think for yourself. Digiwizzard fucked around with this message at 10:31 on Sep 12, 2015 |
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Sep 12, 2015 10:29
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Digiwizzard posted:None of these quotes declare an explicit, or even an implicit plan to create a state of permanent war. Here you go ffs, you want a quote that is literally as explicit as possible? "Start a war, fan it's flames, then create victims ... Then save them, train them... And feed them back onto the battlefield. It's perfectly logical system. In this world of ours conflict never ends, and neither does our purpose, our ... raison d'être" Cipher's plan is not like Big Boss's at all. Cipher wants to unify the world through pure information control. Cipher is about creating pure order by stamping out and censoring anything that upsets the balance. The byproduct of Cipher's plan is that the AIs take on a will of their own and create the war economy from MGS4. That wasn't Cipher's plan. Cipher is all about eliminating free will - Big Boss wants absolute free will through chaos and conflict. The Boss wants absolute free will through disarmament and peace. She wants there to be no need for soldiers - Big Boss wants there to be a permanent place / need for them. Yes, there would still be soldiers. But they have no free will, which is what the Boss and Big Boss value most. The SOP system controls the soldiers and their weapons like literal tools. The entire goal of Cipher was to erase individuality completely. Big Boss does not have to do "nothing" for a global war to occur. The entire plot of MG2 is that the Cold War thawed and everyone but BB scrapped their nukes. His vision is not just small-scale conflicts in third world hellholes - he wants the entire world united in combat. Jesus dude. You are wrong. Once again, please provide a single quote that implies even a little bit that his plan is to eventually disarm the world. I am sorry you are having so much trouble parsing the dialogue / plot of a video game marketed towards 12 year old children. It is so incredibly obvious to everyone but you that it is honestly kind of amazing. Please come up with a quote or anything that isn't just moving the goal posts and saying "nu uh" or shut the gently caress up. You haven't provided even one single quote from the game that supports the idea that Big Boss ever, in any way, shape, or form, wants to lay down his weapons to unify the world, and at this point you are just making GBS threads up the thread by trying to get in pathetic little jabs and being so deliberately obtuse as to defy belief. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 11:58 on Sep 12, 2015 |
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Sep 12, 2015 11:15
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If nothing else, I thought the last tape in Truth Records was really well done and effective.
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Sep 12, 2015 11:32
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Dirty Deeds Done posted:If nothing else, I thought the last tape in Truth Records was really well done and effective. The tapes get really good toward the end in general. A lot of the early ones are just rehashing the plot for people that are new to the series / weren't paying attention, but a ton of good stuff in buried in the back half of the cassettes. Like I can't imagine giving a poo poo about Code Talker or really caring at all about Skull Face if you don't listen to the tapes, and then you've got the depressing-as-hell AI pod tape, the burger tapes, etc.
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Sep 12, 2015 11:33
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I love the second to last Huey tape or whatever where he goes on about DD being a wolf. I love what that character got up to throughout this game.
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Sep 12, 2015 11:42
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Huey is probably the most well-written character in the game. His arc is just perfect and it makes you completely switch sides on him. It's also great because it manages to do it in a way that fits his character in PW really well, even though he's not even remotely as disgusting in that game. He's just such a slimy dude, and I think Christopher Randolph's voice might fit Huey's character even better than Otacon.
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Sep 12, 2015 11:46
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:Huey is probably the most well-written character in the game. His arc is just perfect and it makes you completely switch sides on him. It's also great because it manages to do it in a way that fits his character in PW really well, even though he's not even remotely as disgusting in that game. He's just such a slimy dude, and I think Christopher Randolph's voice might fit Huey's character even better than Otacon. Yeah, I think Huey and Kaz are the best characters here. Huey cheering with glee when he takes the shotgun and kills Skullface is the best moment because it pierces the veneer of badassery that Venom and Kaz engage in at the end. I do still think that most of the story beats in chapter 2 could have been in chapter 1 and resulted in a stronger story, though, with perhaps Huey's trial being part of the epilogue. The good MGS games kept most of their story development happening while the plot's still happening, and I think MGS4 suffered from a ton of stuff happening after the game. That all being said, I enjoyed the game, but thought it could've been significantly better. It's probably the best MGS game to me.
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Sep 12, 2015 11:56
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Panzeh posted:Yeah, I think Huey and Kaz are the best characters here. Huey cheering with glee when he takes the shotgun and kills Skullface is the best moment because it pierces the veneer of badassery that Venom and Kaz engage in at the end. If the cut stuff had been included, I think Chapter 2 would have felt better. Skull Face is basically his own arc, and Chapter 2 is mostly dealing with the fallout of his death and threat posed by Eli, since he has both the English parasite and Sahelanthropus. Had we actually gotten a full third area of the game, I imagine it would have been more than one mission long. "Mission 51" has a lot of stuff going on, and most of the establishing information is told through slideshow concept art. It probably would have been more like 4-5 missions where you show up the island, scout for intel, figure out the situation, and then finally fight the metal gear. Apparently there was originally going to be a third chapter called "Peace," so it's hard to tell what the pacing would have felt like in the end. I doubt Chapter 2 was originally meant to be like a quarter the size of Chapter 1, but we will probably never know for sure.
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Sep 12, 2015 12:03
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Digiwizzard posted:None of these quotes declare an explicit, or even an implicit plan to create a state of permanent war. You're an insufferable retard.
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Sep 12, 2015 12:06
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:If the cut stuff had been included, I think Chapter 2 would have felt better. Skull Face is basically his own arc, and Chapter 2 is mostly dealing with the fallout of his death and threat posed by Eli, since he has both the English parasite and Sahelanthropus. Had we actually gotten a full third area of the game, I imagine it would have been more than one mission long. "Mission 51" has a lot of stuff going on, and most of the establishing information is told through slideshow concept art. It probably would have been more like 4-5 missions where you show up the island, scout for intel, figure out the situation, and then finally fight the metal gear. Apparently there was originally going to be a third chapter called "Peace," so it's hard to tell what the pacing would have felt like in the end. I doubt Chapter 2 was originally meant to be like a quarter the size of Chapter 1, but we will probably never know for sure. I think Eli's inclusion is a mistake for the most part- it's the worst way that the Boss kids would have been included because Eli has no character and is actively annoying. He just spouts non-stop Liquid-lines and gets really mad. Skullface is a more interesting adversary and that's not saying a whole lot. Because I don't care for Eli, I guess Chapter 51 didn't do much for me. Without Eli, almost everything in Chapter 2 could have been put in Chapter 1.
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Sep 12, 2015 12:09
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I actually kind of liked Eli, but I can understand why people wouldn't. Personally I think it gives his really weird love / hate relationship with Big Boss in MGS1 some more texture, but it wasn't strictly necessary. I'm guessing part of it was just Kojima being afraid to leave out the clones completely - there probably would have been a shitstorm if both Liquid and Solid were completely relegated to a single line in a cassette conversation. There's also some interesting subtext there with regards to fatherhood and how Liquid is partially (perhaps even mostly?) shaped by a man who is actually, like him, just another clone of Big Boss. The "Blame me" scene from the cut episode was really neat, I thought. Honestly Solidus probably would have been a way more interesting "leader of child soldiers" character, but Liberia is like as far away as you can get from Angola without leaving the African continent so it wouldn't have really worked. (that could also just be pure bias because I think Solidus is a rad character who could basically carry an entire game by himself)
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Sep 12, 2015 12:19
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I feel like they wanted to cut Eli but couldn't as he was in the 2013 trailer. It's weird that most everything around him was cut but he still hangs around because he's necessary to move the plot forward, but then his biggest plot point (stealing salanthropus) is completely unresolved
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Sep 12, 2015 12:27
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That's a good point. People realized he was Liquid the instant that trailer dropped, so they really had no choice but to keep him after that. I guess in a sense you can kind of infer from MGS1 that whatever his plan was didn't succeed, and Sahelanthropus either got destroyed, recycled, or wouldn't work, but it was still pretty jarring to just watch it fly off into the sunset and then get the credit roll. I wonder how early into development they realized that the boss battle they had planned just wasn't possible. Those cutscenes had a decent amount of work put into them, so it seems like they genuinely got surprised that they couldn't make it work.
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Sep 12, 2015 12:37
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:That's a good point. People realized he was Liquid the instant that trailer dropped, so they really had no choice but to keep him after that. I guess in a sense you can kind of infer from MGS1 that whatever his plan was didn't succeed, and Sahelanthropus either got destroyed, recycled, or wouldn't work, but it was still pretty jarring to just watch it fly off into the sunset and then get the credit roll. It's weird that of all the cut content that is what they chose to actually release in an official format. It makes me think they're at least trying for some kind of DLC, otherwise we'd have seen some more stuff from the cutting room floor. I was watching trailers and there are definitely scenes that didn't make it in the game (The guy training the child soldiers to use an AK I never saw, unless it's something you can miss on one of the missions, and then all the stuff with the prisoners being executed and water tortured in camp omega). As time goes on it's looking more and more like what we see is what we get, but I'm curious what went down in those plot threads, and why they were excised. Time seems the obvious answer, especially in the case of Eli's story, which was going to require an entirely new third area with new mechanics, but some of the other stuff seems reasonable given completed assets in the game and instead of a chapter 2 we get 16 variants of missions with difficulty modifiers? Camp Omega is already a completed area, it was teased when the game was coming out, and then it just didn't happen. Hopefully Kojima will do an interview soon that maybe goes over (at least) why camp omega is cut and what was supposed to happen there. Maybe all this stuff was left on the disk just to give players that phantom pain. The sense that something is missing, but you can still feel it's presence. Meta. That chapter 3 splash is like a picture of you still having both arms.
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Sep 12, 2015 12:58
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I finally got to listen to the Strangelove tape. She was a bit of a creep in Peace Walker but man that was sad
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Sep 12, 2015 13:16
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Panzeh posted:Yeah, I think Huey and Kaz are the best characters here. Huey cheering with glee when he takes the shotgun and kills Skullface is the best moment because it pierces the veneer of badassery that Venom and Kaz engage in at the end. Just to be a sperg, Skull Face's weapon is a rifle, not a shotgun.
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Sep 12, 2015 13:43
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Funky Britches posted:You're an insufferable retard. He's a YCS refugee who's deliberately winding you up.
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Sep 12, 2015 14:32
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Ozmiander posted:Just to be a sperg, Skull Face's weapon is a rifle, not a shotgun. It's the Mares Leg cause hes a cowboy.
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Sep 12, 2015 14:44
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Sharkopath posted:It's the Mares Leg cause hes a cowboy. Mare's Leg is just the name of Steve McQueen'scut down lever action rifle in Wanted: Dead or Alive. 
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Sep 12, 2015 14:53
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Skullface is cool because kinda like Huey he's crafted an image for himself to belie all the thing's he's actually doing. He wears his face as a reminder of the wrongs done to him and seeks vengeance against those who would do the same to other people. His choice of gun, his outfit, the way he speaks and tells people about his plans, using terms like liberator: He's actively trying to wrap himself in the myth of the heroic vigilante, a good man who does bad things to get results, but he's full of crap cause everything he's actually doing would just install him as ruler of the world in shadow.
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Sep 12, 2015 14:53
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Much like you are wrapping yourself up in the myth of Big Boss... The running theme of MGSV is DENIAL.
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Sep 12, 2015 15:01
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Full Battle Rattle posted:It's weird that of all the cut content that is what they chose to actually release in an official format. It makes me think they're at least trying for some kind of DLC, otherwise we'd have seen some more stuff from the cutting room floor. I was watching trailers and there are definitely scenes that didn't make it in the game (The guy training the child soldiers to use an AK I never saw, unless it's something you can miss on one of the missions, and then all the stuff with the prisoners being executed and water tortured in camp omega). As time goes on it's looking more and more like what we see is what we get, but I'm curious what went down in those plot threads, and why they were excised. Time seems the obvious answer, especially in the case of Eli's story, which was going to require an entirely new third area with new mechanics, but some of the other stuff seems reasonable given completed assets in the game and instead of a chapter 2 we get 16 variants of missions with difficulty modifiers? Camp Omega is already a completed area, it was teased when the game was coming out, and then it just didn't happen. You can see the guy training the kids in the first mission to africa, you gotta zoom in on the binocs and its not the same scene/area but its the same animation.
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Sep 12, 2015 15:21
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Vikar Jerome posted:You can see the guy training the kids in the first mission to africa, you gotta zoom in on the binocs and its not the same scene/area but its the same animation. Ah, I had thought that was possibly something just missable.
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Sep 12, 2015 15:23
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So what's the general consensus on the story rewrite? Was it originally the tale of Big Boss going evil until Konami said "you can't do this"? I just feel like there's a disconnect between Kojima saying that this is the game where you'll see him turn and that's why we needed a dark and relatively serious tone.
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Sep 12, 2015 19:44
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Thats definately the story I wanted to see. This story is.. bad?
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Sep 12, 2015 19:49
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Alexander DeLarge posted:So what's the general consensus on the story rewrite? Was it originally the tale of Big Boss going evil until Konami said "you can't do this"? There is no chance this wasn't the intended story basically the entire time. It's effectively recycling what he did in MGS2 in a different way (just as the Metal Gear franchise as a whole is frequently recycling earlier games.) I don't think you can blame Konami for this or even call it a rewrite. At best there was going to be more detail on some of the stuff but I don't really get any feeling this wasn't what Kojima wanted to do. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Sep 12, 2015 |
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Sep 12, 2015 19:57
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We got Big Boss turning evil at the end of Peace Walker, this is just what he does when he's evil.
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Sep 12, 2015 19:58
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My problem is that we never see Big Boss turn. Well, we do, but we don't. He turns at the end of Peace Walker, but that epilogue, Ground Zeroes and the trailers for Phantom Pain sets him up as a figure who goes too far in the name of revenge and becomes a demon. I don't get how he goes from being enraged when a fellow MSF soldier dies in his arms at the end of Ground Zeroes, to immediately agreeing with Zero's plan and manipulating the medic as a tool for his own purposes. It's too abrupt with how it's presented in the game, even though I love the concept of Big Boss being a hypocrite.
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Sep 12, 2015 20:13
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Yeah if you don't get it maybe try paying attention next time
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Sep 12, 2015 20:18
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Under the vegetable posted:Yeah if you don't get it maybe try paying attention next time Pay attention to what exactly? He extracts Paz and Chico, goes back to Mother Base, finds it being assaulted by XOF, rescues Kaz, has a soldier die next to him and he goes into a blind rage over it because he respects soldiers under his command, so much so that Kaz specifically has to snap him out of because the platform was sinking into the ocean, spends the next two minutes in shock before the helicopter goes down, wakes up in a Cyprus hospital, realize Zero set the medic who took the brunt of the explosion for him was altered in order to protect him and then goes... "you know what, sure, I'm more than happy to have the guy who saved my life be used as a tool so he can get rid of XOF for me, that'd be real swell!" out of nowhere. That isn't me not paying attention, that's Big Boss doing a 180 on his personality not from Peace Walker, but from loving Ground Zeroes. Edit: And don't give me the "he changed his values because he was scared of XOF" crap, he's faced much more overwhelming odds before and frankly, XOF is such a complete joke of a threat in MGS V compared to the stakes in MGS 3 and Peace Walker that you're expecting me to believe he turns into a coward just over MSF being destroyed? Willing to abandon Kaz even and have the medic sort things out? The game's got great ideas, but is overall poorly written. A more competent writer than Kojima could have the exact same themes and plot twist and have it make much more sense. Kojima is a game designer and a director but he's a garbage writer who needs reigned in like he did for MGS 1, 2 and 3. Selenephos fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Sep 12, 2015 |
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Sep 12, 2015 20:32
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Mr. Fortitude posted:Pay attention to what exactly? He extracts Paz and Chico, goes back to Mother Base, finds it being assaulted by XOF, rescues Kaz, has a soldier die next to him and he goes into a blind rage over it because he respects soldiers under his command, so much so that Kaz specifically has to snap him out of because the platform was sinking into the ocean, spends the next two minutes in shock before the helicopter goes down, wakes up in a Cyprus hospital, realize Zero set the medic who took the brunt of the explosion for him was altered in order to protect him and then goes... "you know what, sure, I'm more than happy to have the guy who saved my life be used as a tool so he can get rid of XOF for me, that'd be real swell!" out of nowhere. You really don't get the difference between "someone died because we were betrayed and my men slaughtered" and "someone died in pursuit of my plans?"
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Sep 12, 2015 20:35
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The problem with Big Boss isn't that he is mustache twirling evil. It is that he is so consumed with his war with Cipher that he doesn't really give a poo poo about anything else or who he fucks over. Contrast that with Solid Snake who actually creates a organization titled "Philanthropy" and hunts down Metal Gears in the name of preventing any harm from happening to innocent people. In contrast, you have a guy who see all this poo poo going down due to one of his old friends and his solution is to not take sides and pretty much be a gun for hire.
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Sep 12, 2015 20:44
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ImpAtom posted:You really don't get the difference between "someone died because we were betrayed and my men slaughtered" and "someone died in pursuit of my plans?" Big Boss, who created Outer Heaven so that soldiers would never again be used as tools, wakes up from a nine-year coma and immediately uses one of his closest comrades as a tool. It's an incredible betrayal, both of his own ideals and of Kaz and Venom personally. It really makes you loath Big Boss. But its still very inexplicable. Why would BB agree to something that would have been completely anathema to him prior to waking up? It needs more explanation. Just one drat audiotape would have been enough.
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