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Vengarr posted:Big Boss, who created Outer Heaven so that soldiers would never again be used as tools, wakes up from a nine-year coma and immediately uses one of his closest comrades as a tool. Uh, Big Boss sends his soldiers out on missions upon which they may die on a regular basis. That is literally the point of Outer Heaven. Venom Snake's mission is no different except it is bigger. "Big Boss would never use a soldier and let them die or suffer for his own goals" is directly opposed to the entire concept of Mother Base.
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Sep 12, 2015 20:49
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Not to mention that Big Boss has no problem converting a child refugee like Sniper Wolf into a soldier. "In the name of vengeance, I sold my body and my soul. Now I am nothing more than a dog." blackguy32 fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Sep 12, 2015 |
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Sep 12, 2015 20:52
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ImpAtom posted:Uh, Big Boss sends his soldiers out on missions upon which they may die on a regular basis. That is literally the point of Outer Heaven. Venom Snake's mission is no different except it is bigger. Sending soldiers on missions where they can die is quite different from using them as a tool. It's about respect and honesty. "Hey, I need you to be a decoy and draw their fire while I escape. It's a dangerous mission, and you might die. Will you do it?" Vs. "Go attack those guys" *escapes out the back door*".
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Sep 12, 2015 21:00
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What Vengarr said. He sent soldiers out on missions but he never lied to them about anything UNTIL the events of Phantom Pain. Where was the revelation that made him become the very thing he hated? If the theory that the tape he sends Venom is an order for Venom to die for his cause was true then while it makes the plot twist involving Venom much stronger and more tragic, it also makes you wonder just what the hell happened to Big Boss. The only reasonable explanation is that he was always a manipulative rear end in a top hat and the events of MGS 3 and PW are outright fabrications which would fit in with the theme of Big Boss' legend being far different from the truth to be fair, but it also means MGS 3 and PW are basically about as canon as Portable Ops is under that interpretation since they're fictional versions of what really happened to build up his legend and I don't think I'm ready to accept that.
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Sep 12, 2015 21:09
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Vengarr posted:Sending soldiers on missions where they can die is quite different from using them as a tool. It's about respect and honesty. "Hey, I need you to be a decoy and draw their fire while I escape. It's a dangerous mission, and you might die. Will you do it?" Vs. "Go attack those guys" *escapes out the back door*". I'm not really seeing what you mean in this case. In fact Big Boss does the exact opposite of what you say in the intro mission. He makes a distraction so Venom Snake can escape and then comes back to rescue him from the Man on Fire. And the Boss's last tape makes it very clear that he has a ton of respect for Venom and considers him equal to himself. Edit: Also the tape at the end makes Boss's thought clear. This is no different than Medic jumping in front of the blast to protect Boss, something the Medic already did once. You can argue the Boss was wrong about that but he clearly doesn't see it as cowardly or a lie. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Sep 12, 2015 |
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Sep 12, 2015 21:09
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ImpAtom posted:Uh, Big Boss sends his soldiers out on missions upon which they may die on a regular basis. That is literally the point of Outer Heaven. Venom Snake's mission is no different except it is bigger. "Zero cloned me while I was in a coma so that my legend could live on while I was out of commission. That fucker how could he and now I'm gonna fight a war against him and his ideals forever." "Zero created a memetic copy of me while I was in a coma so that my legend could live on while I was out of mission. Nice that's sweet of him. Yo Venom Snake you go run everything and lie to everyone while I vanish for a while." It's like a complete reversal of the Big Boss who wanted soldiers to not be used at the whims of grand schemers.
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Sep 12, 2015 21:17
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ImpAtom posted:I'm not really seeing what you mean in this case. In fact Big Boss does the exact opposite of what you say in the intro mission. He makes a distraction so Venom Snake can escape and then comes back to rescue him from the Man on Fire. This doesn't excuse the fact that Big Boss is still a lovely rear end in a top hat which manipulated Venom into thinking he's the real Big Boss at all you know, even if he does feel respect and possibly even a little remorse over the whole thing. What was the thing that made him do a 180 from how he was in Ground Zeroes? Tell me. The helicopter going down? Why would that make him pull a manipulative stunt like that instead of seeking revenge and using a decoy to deal with XOF while he hosed off elsewhere doing his own thing? That's what doesn't make sense. The idea of the twist is great, but the execution is bad and that's what I'm criticizing. You seem to take issue over the fact that anyone could criticize the game for having a weak story or feeling a little bare bones which was later explained by planned content that didn't come to fruition for whatever reasons.
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Sep 12, 2015 21:18
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randombattle posted:"Zero cloned me while I was in a coma so that my legend could live on while I was out of commission. That fucker how could he and now I'm gonna fight a war against him and his ideals forever." It isn't really the same thing at all. Again, the game makes it clear what Boss's though is here: The Medic was willing to die for him and in fact did die for him on that day. It is a soldier's sacrifice. Mr. Fortitude posted:Why would that make him pull a manipulative stunt like that instead of seeking revenge and using a decoy to deal with XOF while he hosed off elsewhere doing his own thing? That's what doesn't make sense. ... The complete destruction of Mother Base by Cypher, including the fact that multiple moles were in his organization? The end of Peace Walker has him and Kaz talking about how the entire world is going to be after them. Something that is repeated in PP. Big Boss even references his final speech in Peace Walker during the tape about Venom with Ocelot, saying it's just another step on the road to Hell. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Sep 12, 2015 |
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Sep 12, 2015 21:20
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Of course he doesn't see a problem with his actions. The people who sent the Boss to die didn't have a problem with it, and neither did she. That doesn't make her sacrifice right. There are only one or two villains in MGS who aren't totally convinced that what they are doing is right and good.
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Sep 12, 2015 21:23
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One complication of analysis is that the game provides information that suggests Venom's conversion was voluntary, and contradictory evidence suggesting it wasn't.
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Sep 12, 2015 21:42
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One thing I don't think the game did enough of was illustrating that the whole world was, in fact, after Big Boss. Outside of the one jet sent by Cipher and Mosquito's invasion of Mother Base, Venom was able to build Diamond Dogs without any oppositon and I never got the feeling that they were under constant threat from everyone. It was very much an informed threat, not one that felt serious or at all detrimental after the hopsital prologue. Considering how important it is to motivating Venom's creation in the first place, it seems like it's important to show that Big Boss was being targeted by everyone. The Sovies, the PFs, even the Man on Fire only attacked Venom when he was all up in their poo poo. In It For The Tank fucked around with this message at 21:49 on Sep 12, 2015 |
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Sep 12, 2015 21:46
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Discendo Vox posted:One complication of analysis is that the game provides information that suggests Venom's conversion was voluntary, and contradictory evidence suggesting it wasn't. I don't remember any indication that it might've been voluntary. I know Ocelot says that Venom would've wanted it and that he was already willing to sacrifice his life for Big Boss, but I don't remember anything saying, "He knew this is what was happening and agreed to it."
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Sep 12, 2015 21:55
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In It For The Tank posted:One thing I don't think the game did enough of was illustrating that the whole world was, in fact, after Big Boss. Outside of the one jet sent by Cipher and Mosquito's invasion of Mother Base, Venom was able to build Diamond Dogs without any opposition and I never got the feeling that they were under constant threat from everyone. It was very much an informed threat, not one that felt serious or at all detrimental after the hopsital prologue. Yeah, that one was supposed to be explained by the FOB system I guess but it still doesn't show the urgency of the whole situation. There was even this inspection mentioned in GZ and the subject never returns again. Cyprus was dangerous but there are no attacks after that. One guy tries to take over MB but that's just online tutorial. Also, I think Ocelot (as cool as he is) was not an interesting character in TPP. He literally doesn't do anything in the story apart from bringing up DD and training some soldiers at the base. Oh and torturing people sometimes and that bit with Miller at the end. Other than that he was just a very cool guy who's always right about everything all the time and throws exposition at you at every possible moment. Terminally Bored fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Sep 12, 2015 |
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Sep 12, 2015 21:56
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So in MGS1 when Liquid/Miller first calls Snake he introduces himself as Mcdonald Miller. Puts those burger tapes in a whole new light.
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Sep 12, 2015 21:56
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I think the idea was for the FOB system to illustrate that, but hah, that didn't quite pan out.
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Sep 12, 2015 21:57
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ImpAtom posted:It isn't really the same thing at all. Again, the game makes it clear what Boss's though is here: The Medic was willing to die for him and in fact did die for him on that day. It is a soldier's sacrifice. The medic wasn't a volunteer in any of this, but the game acts like he is. It's almost like Kojima couldn't make his mind whether or not Venom should be okay with it or angry. Also no, the rational thought to the complete destruction of Mother Base is to do what Kaz did and be obsessed with revenge or to just disappear and walk away from it all, not manipulate someone else into cleaning up your own mess for you. Given how the game seems intent in deconstructing Big Boss as a legend, not only because of the decoy stunt he pulls but also due to the retcons of Snake Eater where he only succeeded in that mission because of XOF and Skull Face instead of his own skill and how in Peace Walker Big Boss is constantly being compared to Che Guevara and idolized, the only way his sudden change in personality makes any sense is if MGS 3 and PW are idealized and somewhat fictional recreations of what actually happened, created by Zero to maintain Big Boss' legend when in reality he was always an rear end in a top hat. Where Naked Snake was a competent but not outstanding soldier who got help from XOF during Snake Eater and the whole scenes with Chico in Peace Walker are a lie and he forcibly conscripted him instead of accepting him as a volunteer or something. Which does work and answer the issues I have I guess, but to me personally it makes MGS 3 and PW seem awfully hollow. In It For The Tank posted:One thing I don't think the game did enough of was illustrating that the whole world was, in fact, after Big Boss. Outside of the one jet sent by Cipher and Mosquito's invasion of Mother Base, Venom was able to build Diamond Dogs without any oppositon and I never got the feeling that they were under constant threat from everyone. It was very much an informed threat, not one that felt serious or at all detrimental after the hopsital prologue. This kind of bugged me too. If the whole world wanted him dead then why would he even be allowed to come back to FOXHOUND in the first place, decoy or not? Did he use a fake name and nobody notice at FOXHOUND that Higharolla Kockamamie or whatever name you put at the start of the game looked exactly like and was as skilled as the original founder of FOXHOUND, Big Boss? Or how Solid Snake didn't ask himself why Big Boss now has shrapnel in his skull when he confronts him at the end of MG 1? Edit: Didn't think of the FOB angle. That kind of makes sense I guess.
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Sep 12, 2015 21:58
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Mr. Fortitude posted:Also no, the rational thought to the complete destruction of Mother Base is to do what Kaz did and be obsessed with revenge or to just disappear and walk away from it all, not manipulate someone else into cleaning up your own mess for you. Except Big Boss wasn't 'manipulating someone to clean up his mess for him.' He was using it as a distraction while he set up his own new version of Mother Base and it just turns out Venom did the job for him. Mr. Fortitude posted:Given how the game seems intent in deconstructing Big Boss as a legend, not only because of the decoy stunt he pulls but also due to the retcons of Snake Eater where he only succeeded in that mission because of XOF and Skull Face instead of his own skill That isn't what they said at all. XOF didn't secretly complete the mission. They cleaned up afterwards. That was their point, they were a quiet support team. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Sep 12, 2015 |
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Sep 12, 2015 22:06
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I don't think Skull Face helped out at all during Snake Eater. They make a big deal about how you absolutely have to go in alone, no help, because the risk of sparking a nuclear war is too great otherwise. Tselinoyarsk was so isolated that any outside interference would have been insanely obvious.
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Sep 12, 2015 22:07
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Vengarr posted:I don't think Skull Face helped out at all during Snake Eater. They make a big deal about how you absolutely have to go in alone, no help, because the risk of sparking a nuclear war is too great otherwise. Tselinoyarsk was so isolated that any outside interference would have been insanely obvious. As he described it he was behind the scenes cleaning up the fallout and political ramifications.
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Sep 12, 2015 22:08
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randombattle posted:As he described it he was behind the scenes cleaning up the fallout and political ramifications. Right, which isn't suddenly Snake not succeeding on his own skill. (Also Snake didn't succeed on his own skill even there. Literally everyone around Volgan was a traitor. The Boss was, Ocelot was, Eva was, the COBRAs were, Snake had an absurd amount of quiet help in that scenario.)
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Sep 12, 2015 22:10
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The FOB invasions are chalked up to attacks from rival PFs though. They're after Diamond Dogs, not Big Boss specifically.
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Sep 12, 2015 22:11
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ImpAtom posted:That isn't what they said at all. XOF didn't secretly complete the mission. They cleaned up afterwards. That was their point, they were a quiet support team. I have it on good authority that Skull Face personally delivered the Croc Cap for Snake to find.
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Sep 12, 2015 22:13
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Skull Face was the one who manipulated the events of Snake Eater up so Naked Snake could win. He was the one who provides you intel through Zero even though Zero didn't do that and EVA did that unless EVA somehow was friends with Skull Face but she wasn't even allied with Zero at the time so that makes absolutely no sense, he was the one who disposed of the Cobra Unit bodies even though it was explained they had microbombs implanted so nobody could capture them upon death in that game which is why they exploded, yet somehow he managed to recover the exploded non-existent bodies of the Cobra Unit for the parasites they contained which Code Talker then worked on to create stronger versions an... My point is that Skull Face is a really lovely asspull.
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Sep 12, 2015 22:21
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oh hi wrong thread, sorry guys
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Sep 12, 2015 22:22
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If anyone's in the mood to feel my phantom pain... watch this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssWgwIl-7ss&t=1504s So much got cut... and it's a bunch of stuff that I was really looking forward to. Again, the game is amazing and I'll keep playing it for a while but poo poo... the missing stuff would have been so awesome to have. 
DaveKap fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Sep 12, 2015 |
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Sep 12, 2015 22:47
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DaveKap posted:If anyone's in the mood to feel my phantom pain... watch this. Rip morpho.
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Sep 12, 2015 22:52
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DaveKap posted:If anyone's in the mood to feel my phantom pain... watch this. Not saying stuff didn't get cut, a lot did but wasn't that demo made specifically for demo purposes and not going to be part of the main game?
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Sep 12, 2015 22:52
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DaveKap posted:If anyone's in the mood to feel my phantom pain... watch this. Wow. So much of that video was bullshit - barely any of it made it into release. Pretty sad, as Mother Base looked really nice and active.
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Sep 12, 2015 22:53
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Most of it was in the game just not in the way presented. Which ain't really an excuse since Mother Base did suck hard.
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Sep 12, 2015 22:55
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Mr. Fortitude posted:Not saying stuff didn't get cut, a lot did but wasn't that demo made specifically for demo purposes and not going to be part of the main game? Well yeah clearly it was made specifically for the demo because none of it is in the final game. If you make a demo and say "This is stuff that will be in the game" then it's not unreasonable to expect those things to be in the final game.
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Sep 12, 2015 22:57
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Harrow posted:I don't remember any indication that it might've been voluntary. I know Ocelot says that Venom would've wanted it and that he was already willing to sacrifice his life for Big Boss, but I don't remember anything saying, "He knew this is what was happening and agreed to it." The added material at the beginning of mission 46 in particular implies Venom was in on it. More generally, there's not really an indication (beyond the nonverbals of him smiling at the recording and punching the mirror) that indicate how he feels about it afterwards. I'm actually not sure there's a clear intent to show that Big Boss is doing the wrong thing, even at the end of MGSV- the narrative depiction doesn't do anything to accomplish that effect. The endgame treatment of Skully makes it seem like the plot wants both sides of the Moby Dick/revenge metaphor it has going. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 23:07 on Sep 12, 2015 |
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Sep 12, 2015 23:01
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Discendo Vox posted:One complication of analysis is that the game provides information that suggests Venom's conversion was voluntary, and contradictory evidence suggesting it wasn't. This isn't rare in MGS. The terrible babble that is Kojimas dialogue can frequently be interpreted in multiple contradictory ways, sometimes deliberate hypocracy, sometimes just... lovely writing or translation. Sometimes hard to tell which.
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Sep 12, 2015 23:17
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randombattle posted:Well yeah clearly it was made specifically for the demo because none of it is in the final game. If you make a demo and say "This is stuff that will be in the game" then it's not unreasonable to expect those things to be in the final game. I kinda skipped around when watching the video, but I didn't see anything major that didn't make it into the game?
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Sep 12, 2015 23:24
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i wonder if you were meant to get invaded from other pf's from time to time in single player and konami forced it to be mp only for the coins.
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Sep 12, 2015 23:32
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Vikar Jerome posted:i wonder if you were meant to get invaded from other pf's from time to time in single player and konami forced it to be mp only for the coins. I doubt it. I suspect the base invasion feature was planned but it was revamped in the direction it currently was due to a request for microtransactions. That is probably why they're worthless though. Dead Space 3 had something similar where they clearly shoved in a microtransaction system but it was entirely meaningless because you could do everything in the game trivially without it. PP isn't quite DS3 level but it's real close and getting high-level upgrades should not require a single spent cash dollar.
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Sep 12, 2015 23:36
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So who bought a Mass Effect 3 banner and linked it to the MGS5 thread? 
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Sep 12, 2015 23:38
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why is ocelot working with eli in mgs1 do they just share the common goal of seeing if the real big boss was killed by solid snake??
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Sep 12, 2015 23:41
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Liquid Penguins posted:why is ocelot working with eli in mgs1 Ocelot was working for the patriots.
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Sep 12, 2015 23:42
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randombattle posted:Ocelot was working for the patriots. Uhm, he was actually working for Solidus.
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Sep 12, 2015 23:50
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Ocelot actually is the master mind behind everything post Snake Eater
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Sep 12, 2015 23:50
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