The Refugee Crisis - a crisis of conscience - The Something Awful Forums

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > The Refugee Crisis - a crisis of conscience

CRISPYBABY: Dec 15, 2007; by Reene

Shoutout to my Hungarian relatives constantly posting xenophobic trash on Facebook. I love that country, but eeeeeeeeee. It's got this crazy nationalism that is fuelled by an inferiority complex developed through a few centuries of being the oddball of central Europe. It's been developing for a long time, the migrant influx is just making it hit a boiling point.

# ? Sep 13, 2015 19:30

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# ? May 29, 2024 11:35

Honj Steak: May 31, 2013; Hi there.

attackmole posted:

Shoutout to my Hungarian relatives constantly posting xenophobic trash on Facebook. I love that country, but eeeeeeeeee. It's got this crazy nationalism that is fuelled by an inferiority complex developed through a few centuries of being the oddball of central Europe. It's been developing for a long time, the migrant influx is just making it hit a boiling point.

Hungary is by far the most right-wing nation in Europe.

While Fidesz is already really nationalist and reactionary, Jobbik are outright Neonazis. And one in five Hungarians voted for them. :negative:

# ? Sep 13, 2015 19:36

tsa: Feb 3, 2014

Honj Steak posted:

No of course that's true. Germany needs a bit more than 500,000 immigrants per year to keep their population levelled. Right wing answers I've heard to that are for instance:

- Population decline isn't a bad thing
- Let's make our women have more children
- Let's take in more EU foreigners but no swarthy refugees

From a climate change perspective declining populations in the countries that consume mass amounts of resources should be a good thing, no? After all if the entire world consumed like the US / EU did the world would be doomed.

computer parts posted:

Yeah, if you want a preview of most of Europe without immigration, look at Japan:

lol at that nonsense extrapolation. It's gotta be a bell curve because uhhhh I dunno!

# ? Sep 13, 2015 19:42

Honj Steak: May 31, 2013; Hi there.

tsa posted:

From a climate change perspective declining populations in the countries that consume mass amounts of resources should be a good thing, no? After all if the entire world consumed like the US / EU did the world would be doomed.

From the perspective of a German child that wants to have social security when she or he is older, a declining and aging population is a really bad prospect, though.

# ? Sep 13, 2015 19:45

TomViolence: Feb 19, 2013; PLEASE ASK ABOUT MY 80,000 WORD WALLACE AND GROMIT SLASH FICTION. PLEASE.

Is this hypothesis based on the idea that birth rates will continue to decline or that they will trend downward to some sort of stable level, perhaps sustained by an influx of population from immigration? Because I'm still all for smaller families and I'd like to see a sustainable society down the line.

# ? Sep 13, 2015 19:52

Honj Steak: May 31, 2013; Hi there.

TomViolence posted:

Is this hypothesis based on the idea that birth rates will continue to decline or that they will trend downward to some sort of stable level, perhaps sustained by an influx of population from immigration? Because I'm still all for smaller families and I'd like to see a sustainable society down the line.

The fertility rate in countries like Germany or Italy has been about 1.4 children per woman since the eighties. Assuming that this stays the same for a few generations, the percentage of old people would at some point become stable, while the overall population size would continue to shrink. However, life expectancy is still rising constantly which makes the share of old people larger again because newer generations will live longer. The average family in these countries is already really small and immigration is strongly needed to equalise this.

# ? Sep 13, 2015 20:05

Honj Steak: May 31, 2013; Hi there.

Expected refugee numbers for Germany have been adjusted to 1,000,000 in 2015.

# ? Sep 13, 2015 20:13

PerpetualSelf: Apr 6, 2015; by Ralp

Smudgie Buggler posted:

Are you loving sick in the head?

No i'm just a anti-semite.

I've been radicalized against the Israelis and Jews by their foreign policy and continued reliance on our taxes to ensure their existence and their apartheid state. Not to mention their complete control of the media which they use to ensure poverty amongst the lower and middle classes and spread their form of poisonous capito-fascism to the world via the control of the media thanks to well known Jew 1% master Rupert Murdoch.

We need popular revolution of the proletariat against the jewish media overlords to ensure freedom of though for the working classes.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Sep 13, 2015 20:19

on the left: Nov 2, 2013; I Am A Gigantic Piece Of Shit

Literally poo from a diseased human butt

Honj Steak posted:

From the perspective of a German child that wants to have social security when she or he is older, a declining and aging population is a really bad prospect, though.

What a coincidence that refugee migration is in the exact composition and number to sustain the economy. The free market is incredible at economic planning!

Also, as a side note, what happens when the migrants get old and demand social security of their own? Is Germany going to kick them out or import yet more refugees to pay for another generation of social services?

# ? Sep 13, 2015 20:20

TomViolence: Feb 19, 2013; PLEASE ASK ABOUT MY 80,000 WORD WALLACE AND GROMIT SLASH FICTION. PLEASE.

It's basically going to be Children of Men by the looks of it.

# ? Sep 13, 2015 20:22

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

PerpetualSelf posted:

No i'm just a anti-semite.

I've been radicalized against the Israelis and Jews by their foreign policy and continued reliance on our taxes to ensure their existence and their apartheid state. Not to mention their complete control of the media which they use to ensure poverty amongst the lower and middle classes and spread their form of poisonous capito-fascism to the world via the control of the media thanks to well known Jew 1% master Rupert Murdoch.

We need popular revolution of the proletariat against the jewish media overlords to ensure freedom of though for the working classes.

# ? Sep 13, 2015 20:24

CRISPYBABY: Dec 15, 2007; by Reene

Honj Steak posted:

Hungary is by far the most right-wing nation in Europe.

While Fidesz is already really nationalist and reactionary, Jobbik are outright Neonazis. And one in five Hungarians voted for them.

Even more than Ukraine and Russia? They are certainly up there though. poo poo, even my mom is lamenting the loss of the "Hungarian way of life" as those dirty ~~muslims~~ migrants keep showing up.

Hungary's had a chip on it's shoulder about national/cultural identity for most of it's existence. From being formed from a migrating tribe with no cultural neighbours, to being overpowered by Austrians/Turks/Soviets, to losing a bunch of territory post WWI, Hungary's felt the need to to proactively assert it's cultural identity against outside influences for centuries. I'm not sure if patriotism or fascism is the right word for it because it's less governmental in nature, but Hungarians take their Hungarian culture very seriously. Usually it's been against oppressors. Unfortunately that cultural assertiveness is now being used as an excuse to stomp on refugees.

# ? Sep 13, 2015 20:25

Baudolino: Apr 1, 2010; THUNDERDOME LOSER

Honj Steak posted:

From the perspective of a German child that wants to have social security when she or he is older, a declining and aging population is a really bad prospect, though.

It`s a sacrifice worth making.

# ? Sep 13, 2015 20:28

Honj Steak: May 31, 2013; Hi there.

Baudolino posted:

It`s a sacrifice worth making.

I guess you have to support the far-right people in Germany who don't want to take any refugees, then. Even the center-right CDU is overwhelmingly pro-immigration.

# ? Sep 13, 2015 20:31

Adar: Jul 27, 2001

PerpetualSelf posted:

No i'm just a anti-semite.

I've been radicalized against the Israelis and Jews by their foreign policy and continued reliance on our taxes to ensure their existence and their apartheid state. Not to mention their complete control of the media which they use to ensure poverty amongst the lower and middle classes and spread their form of poisonous capito-fascism to the world via the control of the media thanks to well known Jew 1% master Rupert Murdoch.

We need popular revolution of the proletariat against the jewish media overlords to ensure freedom of though for the working classes.

PerpetualSelf posted:

Also the United States biggest mistake in Syria was their failure to commit to Assad and propup one of the few remaining Secular states in the Middle East. Secular Democracy which in 90s seemed inevitable in the middle east is now a pipe dream. They committed the same mistake in taking out Saddam Hussein. The only hope for secular states in the Middle East post-bush is via dictatorship whether you like that or not. The final result of the Syrian war will be a Secular Dictatorship or Sharia law of some form. There is zero hope for secular democracy in the Middle East.

PerpetualSelf posted:

Explain why secular democracy has failed to take root in any middle eastern country and why free elections in iraq, afganistan, and Egypt has only lead to people like the Muslim Brotherhood winning.

Explain why the only hope for secular government in the middle east was the B'ath party and when the United States stepped in and removed or opposed B'ath leaders the forces that took over were mostly Sharia and those seeking Democratic Secularism were minorities.

We are in a 4 way civil war where two of the combatant parties want Sharia law in one form or another. The third is a secular dictator and the fourth doesn't have a chance in hell of winning.

There are secular Muslims out there. But they're in loving Iran.

If this was the us civil war and the refugees were a bunch of southerners fleeing the south half this forum would be going on and on about how they deserved what they got for being redneck hillbilly traitor racists that enabled slavery and genocide.

PerpetualSelf posted:

I don't think Europe or England understand what true Diversity, Tolerance, or Common Sense means anymore and that this whole endeavor is going to fail miserably.

But not that I care. I'm a American. gently caress the pissant little Europeons. Seen so many people compare this event to the growth in France from immigrants and people pointing to that failure as a reason it can never worked all while ignoring how loving insular French society is in the first place and how loving xenephobic their culture is from the outset.

Diversity sure as gently caress isn't going to mean accepting every little cultural standard or tradition - these things are supposed to meld: the best traits of one, the best traits of another, into a overall national identity.

Europeans like to treat it completely differently. They are so drat insular and cling so much to their antiquated meaningless kings, queens, old rulers, tea time, lovely languages, nude broads in their loving newspapers, sports traditions, food, drink, and so on that they'd never give a chance for that to happen. So things will be segregated from the get-go. Which means it simply will not work.

I mean I'd love this to happen for all the refugees to settle down, integrate into society, the national identity and culture to meld to where Hummus, Tabbouleh, and Shawarma became part of the standard national cuisine. But the rise of the european right means there is only going to be violence, discrimination, hate, and hate crimes for the far forseeable future and the effects of those people, and their political policies will ensure any kind of proper cultural fusion is impossible. Any Muslim thinking of going to Europe in this day and age should think twice about the likelihood of having his whole family hacked down with an axe by a neo-nazi crazy.

I don't understand why we can't just do massive airlifts of refugees to the richer arab states and laugh at them if they try to stop us.

Just tossing a few of these gems out there for posterity

# ? Sep 13, 2015 20:32

Ernie Muppari: Aug 4, 2012; Keep this up G'Bert, and soon you won't have a pigeon to protect!

PerpetualSelf posted:

No i'm just a anti-semite.

I've been radicalized against the Israelis and Jews by their foreign policy and continued reliance on our taxes to ensure their existence and their apartheid state. Not to mention their complete control of the media which they use to ensure poverty amongst the lower and middle classes and spread their form of poisonous capito-fascism to the world via the control of the media thanks to well known Jew 1% master Rupert Murdoch.

We need popular revolution of the proletariat against the jewish media overlords to ensure freedom of though for the working classes.

congraturation on falling for murdochian propaganda then

# ? Sep 13, 2015 20:32

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

TomViolence posted:

Is this hypothesis based on the idea that birth rates will continue to decline or that they will trend downward to some sort of stable level, perhaps sustained by an influx of population from immigration? Because I'm still all for smaller families and I'd like to see a sustainable society down the line.

It's based on the idea that if a couple has fewer than 2 children, then populations will decrease.

# ? Sep 13, 2015 20:33

Ernie Muppari: Aug 4, 2012; Keep this up G'Bert, and soon you won't have a pigeon to protect!

computer parts posted:

It's based on the idea that if a couple has fewer than 2 children, then populations will decrease.

well yeah but it doesn't anticipate the influx of east asian immigration in the 20s and the sudden drop to 0 population in 83

# ? Sep 13, 2015 20:37

Mineaiki: Nov 20, 2013

attackmole posted:

Even more than Ukraine and Russia? They are certainly up there though. poo poo, even my mom is lamenting the loss of the "Hungarian way of life" as those dirty ~~muslims~~ migrants keep showing up.

Hungary's had a chip on it's shoulder about national/cultural identity for most of it's existence. From being formed from a migrating tribe with no cultural neighbours, to being overpowered by Austrians/Turks/Soviets, to losing a bunch of territory post WWI, Hungary's felt the need to to proactively assert it's cultural identity against outside influences for centuries. I'm not sure if patriotism or fascism is the right word for it because it's less governmental in nature, but Hungarians take their Hungarian culture very seriously. Usually it's been against oppressors. Unfortunately that cultural assertiveness is now being used as an excuse to stomp on refugees.

It's called nationalism, and it's extremely common in all of Europe.

# ? Sep 13, 2015 20:39

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

Ernie Muppari posted:

well yeah but it doesn't anticipate the influx of east asian immigration in the 20s and the sudden drop to 0 population in 83

Well yes, with immigrants you can subsidize fertility rates. This is an issue though if you believe that ~~non-white~~ "troublesome" elements are coming over with those immigrants.

# ? Sep 13, 2015 20:39

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Ernie Muppari posted:

well yeah but it doesn't anticipate the influx of east asian immigration in the 20s and the sudden drop to 0 population in 83

It's true that if you have people immigrating to your country, then you don't need every "replacement human being" to be directly born out of currently existing citizens, but only if you're also willing to accept the immigrants as full citizens of their own right.

# ? Sep 13, 2015 20:48

CRISPYBABY: Dec 15, 2007; by Reene

Mineaiki posted:

It's called nationalism, and it's extremely common in all of Europe.

I know that, I'm just saying Hungary's got even more extreme than the rest of Europe from a history of being poo poo on and having no similar neighbouring cultures. And now it's turned into a reactionary shitlord movement.

I'm a second generation immigrant and a byproduct of the Hungarian revolution diaspora. I'm Canadian so I'm not particularly attuned to European politics and I might be projecting here. But both my relatives and most of the Hungarian's I've met have had far more interest in national/cultural pride then people from any other cultural group I've ever met. Obviously there's some bias here given that I've hung out with lots of Hungarians and not a lot of people from other nationalistic hotbeds, I'm just saying that the extent of Hungary's nationalism can't really be overstated. It's practically an innate part of the cultural identity.

Is it inherently right-wing? Maybe not, but that's certainly the most obvious route for nationalism to manifest.

CRISPYBABY fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Sep 13, 2015

# ? Sep 13, 2015 20:55

Honj Steak: May 31, 2013; Hi there.

attackmole posted:

I know that, I'm just saying Hungary's got even more extreme than the rest of Europe from a history of being poo poo on and having no similar neighbouring cultures. And now it's turned into a reactionary shitlord movement.

I'm a second generation immigrant and a byproduct of the Hungarian revolution diaspora. I'm Canadian so I'm not particularly attuned to European politics and I might be projecting here. But both my relatives and most of the Hungarian's I've met have had far more interest in national/cultural pride then people from any other cultural group I've ever met. Obviously there's some bias here given that I've hung out with lots of Hungarians and not a lot of people from other nationalistic hotbeds, I'm just saying that the extent of Hungary's nationalism can't really be overstated. It's practically an innate part of the cultural identity.

I stopped debating Hungarian politics with Hungarians long ago. You will either get someone who downplays the extent of far-right extremism in the country or someone who outright supports it. When I touched the topic of Jobbik using symbols of the fascist Arrow Cross Party you mostly heard something like "It's an old Hungarian tradition and it's good there are people who uphold it". When I said Jobbik and Fidesz politicians were openly talking about "the world's jewry destroying the integrity of our state" I heard "Well, there is some truth to that statement".

# ? Sep 13, 2015 21:02

Lowtechs: Jan 12, 2001; Grimey Drawer

This situation isn't going to end well at all.

# ? Sep 13, 2015 23:13

Arglebargle III: Feb 21, 2006

As a Jew, I'm opposed to Europe accepting migrants. Migrants have been nothing but trouble for the last 40 years in Israel. They don't respect culture and they don't assimilate.

# ? Sep 13, 2015 23:15

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Typo posted:

It's not "trivial" at all actually. It's pretty difficult to, for instance, ship food into a warzone because the people delivering it might get shot. Even if it gets brought in the food might be confiscated by local warlords who has uses it as leverage control the population. Obey and get red cross food, disobey and starve.

In fact this is pretty much exactly what happened with western aid 70s-90s to Africa, most notoriously with the Derg government in Ethiopia and Somalian warlords. The idea of airdropping food to feed people is good in theory but don't work out all that often in reality.

Sounds like a failure in the distribution system, largely stemming from ideological issues rather than logistical limitations!

# ? Sep 13, 2015 23:17

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

Main Paineframe posted:

Sounds like a failure in the distribution system, largely stemming from ideological issues rather than logistical limitations!

Well, yes, but most people would balk at deploying a MEF and a brigade of Sea-Bees every time we want to engage in humanitarian aid, for various reasons.

# ? Sep 13, 2015 23:21

Typo: Aug 19, 2009; Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

Main Paineframe posted:

Sounds like a failure in the distribution system, largely stemming from ideological issues rather than logistical limitations!

The issues aren't ideological though

# ? Sep 14, 2015 00:08

chessmaster13: Jan 10, 2015

Main Paineframe posted:

Sounds like a failure in the distribution system, largely stemming from ideological issues rather than logistical limitations!

Do you really believe that? The largest group of men with guns will always decide what flys and what not on their domain of power.

# ? Sep 14, 2015 00:09

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

chessmaster13 posted:

Do you really believe that? The largest group of men with guns will always decide what flys and what not on their domain of power.

The United States of America is not a military dictatorship, dumbass. In fact, this particular description is essentially bullshit, because most military dictatorships are run by one person or a small group of people, who are far outnumbered by their armed underlings.

# ? Sep 14, 2015 00:13

chessmaster13: Jan 10, 2015

Effectronica posted:

The United States of America is not a military dictatorship, dumbass. In fact, this particular description is essentially bullshit, because most military dictatorships are run by one person or a small group of people, who are far outnumbered by their armed underlings.

Isn't your post simply rephrasing what I posted? As far as I know nobody wants to airdrop food in the US or any developed nation; there is no need to.
Also, democratic country's are run by a relatively small number of people, people can just influence who has power, not really what the people in power do.
The people in office represent the will of the people.
Also, look at the ratio of police forces to civilians, it's far smaller than 1.

# ? Sep 14, 2015 00:22

Typo: Aug 19, 2009; Chernigov Military Aviation Lyceum
The Fighting Slowpokes

Tesseraction posted:

Given Nasser's popularity and Sadat's causing of riots over his economic policy, isn't this disingenuous? Feel free to correct me on my perception as I've admitted in this thread I've only gotten touches on the history of Egypt during this period.

Nasser was popular because of his victory in the Suez canal crisis and anti-zionism. That and he died soon enough after the humiliation of the six day war so that Sadat got to deal with the mess he created.

quote:

At the same time, South Korea is doing well but it also crushes unions and has banned the leftist opposition over bullshit charges of being North Korea sympathisers (their actual policy is unification). If it's such a paradise then why does it feel the need to silence freedom of speech if said speech doesn't agree with the government?

For one because one of the paradoxes of development is that as people get richer and less likely to starve they actually have more time/education to complain about their government.

# ? Sep 14, 2015 00:22

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

chessmaster13 posted:

Isn't your post simply rephrasing what I posted? As far as I know nobody wants to airdrop food in the US or any developed nation; there is no need to.
Also, democratic country's are run by a relatively small number of people, people can just influence who has power, not really what the people in power do.
The people in office represent the will of the people.
Also, look at the ratio of police forces to civilians, it's far smaller than 1.

This is gibberish. Please rephrase it to make more sense.

# ? Sep 14, 2015 00:22

computer parts: Nov 18, 2010; PLEASE CLAP

chessmaster13 posted:

Isn't your post simply rephrasing what I posted? As far as I know nobody wants to airdrop food in the US or any developed nation; there is no need to.
Also, democratic country's are run by a relatively small number of people, people can just influence who has power, not really what the people in power do.
The people in office represent the will of the people.
Also, look at the ratio of police forces to civilians, it's far smaller than 1.

What he's saying is that the US can easily be the one with the most guns in the region.

# ? Sep 14, 2015 00:25

Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

computer parts posted:

What he's saying is that the US can easily be the one with the most guns in the region.

Not that, specifically. I'm saying that a large group of people having guns doesn't mean that they're in charge, because this isn't the case in the US most obviously, and more subtly, even in many dictatorships.

# ? Sep 14, 2015 00:27

Main Paineframe: Oct 27, 2010

Typo posted:

The issues aren't ideological though

If a local strongman rolls up to the food truck with a bunch of armed men and says "The people who need this food aren't getting this food, because I think they should also die and also I like the sound of 'free food'" then that is absolutely an ideological problem. It's not physically, organizationally, or technologically impossible to get food to the people; the problem is that someone is interfering with the supply chain for ideological reasons.

# ? Sep 14, 2015 02:19

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Refugees welcome in Macedonia!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8h4sgEKNKU

# ? Sep 14, 2015 04:32

Inferior Third Season: Jan 15, 2005

In today's "Denmark is shameful poo poo" news, the prime minister went to Brussels, and basically told the EU to suck it, and Denmark will not be participating in any quota system. Well, it will, so long as the portion attributed to Denmark is zero.

How is the media reacting? They're saying that the prime minister is "holding firm to his position", and basically laying out the European equivalent of "States' rights" arguments.

:denmark:

# ? Sep 14, 2015 09:47

az: Dec 2, 2005

We thought you were cool Denmark.

# ? Sep 14, 2015 10:42

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# ? May 29, 2024 11:35

School Nickname: Apr 23, 2010; *fffffff-fffaaaaaaarrrtt*

Inferior Third Season posted:

How is the media reacting? They're saying that the prime minister is "holding firm to his position", and basically laying out the European equivalent of "States' rights" arguments.

"These colors don't run into my country" - Danish PM

# ? Sep 14, 2015 10:50

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