Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Let's Debate the Police and Criminal Justice

Eggplant Squire: Aug 14, 2003

Seriously who gives a poo poo if one offhand comment is a correct dictionary definition or not? It comes off incredibly silly when the bigger issue is a woman being killed while in police custody.

# ? Sep 16, 2015 18:52

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# ? May 31, 2024 02:58

Kalman: Jan 17, 2010

Raerlynn posted:

You tell me Kalman. You're the one that setup this hypothetical about administering medicine, not me. It seems unfair for me to have to predict circumstances that you're not describing.

Stop it. Stop doing the same bullshit thing you've done before in this thread that Semper Wifi, Dead Reckoning, Actorhesus, and others have done. You're nit picking a word and trying to, out of the corner of your mouth, downplay how this was a terrible, horrible murder.

Remove the officers and the jail setting. Instead have the exact same sequence of events play out at a hospital. Now again in a private residence. And again in a school. Each and every time this would be called a murder, and I feel rather confident that while the definition doesn't merit the Kalman badge of approval, I can get actual people to agree with me that this is brutality. Stop loving minimizing that they beat and tortured a woman to death who literally didn't understand what was going on around her, who couldn't comply because she was. Not. Sane.

Like usual, people assume that any disagreement about anything means that I thought that the bad behavior was fine.

I agree with you (for the what, third time now): it was brutality. Absolutely. Unquestionably.

But not because it was "unnecessary and resulted in death." That's a loving dumb definition put forward by stupid loving people who don't know how words work.

Like you.

# ? Sep 16, 2015 18:55

Raerlynn: Oct 28, 2007; Sorry I'm late, I'm afraid I got lost on the path of life.

Kalman posted:

Like usual, people assume that any disagreement about anything means that I thought that the bad behavior was fine.

I agree with you (for the what, third time now): it was brutality. Absolutely. Unquestionably.

But not because it was "unnecessary and resulted in death." That's a loving dumb definition put forward by stupid loving people who don't know how words work.

Like you.

Go home fishmech, you're drunk.

# ? Sep 16, 2015 19:00

upgunned shitpost: Jan 21, 2015

Kalman posted:

Like usual, people assume that any disagreement about anything means that I thought that the bad behavior was fine.

I agree with you (for the what, third time now): it was brutality. Absolutely. Unquestionably.

But not because it was "unnecessary and resulted in death." That's a loving dumb definition put forward by stupid loving people who don't know how words work.

Like you.

This is what you did with your life today. You wrote that.

# ? Sep 16, 2015 19:00

Booourns: Jan 20, 2004; Please send a report when you see me complain about other posters and threads outside of QCS

~thanks!

Kalman posted:

Like usual, people assume that any disagreement about anything means that I thought that the bad behavior was fine.

I agree with you (for the what, third time now): it was brutality. Absolutely. Unquestionably.

But not because it was "unnecessary and resulted in death." That's a loving dumb definition put forward by stupid loving people who don't know how words work.

Like you.

Edit: actually nah

Booourns fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Sep 16, 2015

# ? Sep 16, 2015 19:35

The Mattybee: Sep 15, 2007; despair.

Kalman posted:

You pass out coughing up blood. I administer a hypothetical medication known to treat the most likely causes of that condition. You happen to be allergic and die.

Unnecessary and completely avoidable death. Brutal treatment?

(It's not comparable at all to the taser death, but that's a loving terrible definition of brutal treatment.)

I don't think that would be "unnecessary and completely avoidable" given that you did everything in your information.

Jarmak posted:

I guess we can chalk you up as bad at English then

So a "a treatment that causes unnecessary and completely avoidable death" is not "grossly ruthless or unfeeling"? It is not "cruel or cold-blooded", or "very bad or unpleasant"?

I mean, brutal literally has a meaning that I posted, and you're going "nuh uh!" You might argue that the treatment itself in this case wasn't brutal, but something that was unnecessary and totally happened to kill a dude and didn't need to looks to me like it fits that pretty neatly.

EDIT: oh wait lol

Jarmak posted:

That's not an analogy

I don't think you're in any position to criticize anyone else's English skills, Jarmak.

The Mattybee fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Sep 16, 2015

# ? Sep 16, 2015 19:37

Jarmak: Jan 24, 2005

The Mattybee posted:

I don't think that would be "unnecessary and completely avoidable" given that you did everything in your information.

So a "a treatment that causes unnecessary and completely avoidable death" is not "grossly ruthless or unfeeling"? It is not "cruel or cold-blooded", or "very bad or unpleasant"?

I mean, brutal literally has a meaning that I posted, and you're going "nuh uh!" You might argue that the treatment itself in this case wasn't brutal, but something that was unnecessary and totally happened to kill a dude and didn't need to looks to me like it fits that pretty neatly.

EDIT: oh wait lol

I don't think you're in any position anyone else's English skills, Jarmak.

Yeah, what you posted is loving retarded and when you post that 2+2=3 and then quote a source showing that 2+2=4 to prove it, it doesn't require more then a "nuh uh".

This is why this thread sucks by the way, someone posts something retarded and there's two pages of people trying to defend it before transitioning to " why are you guys nitpicking"

# ? Sep 16, 2015 19:55

Dead Reckoning: Sep 13, 2011

tentative8e8op posted:

I'm sorry if I'm wrong, but doesn't "excited delirium syndrome" simply mean that a medical examiner doesn't know what caused her death? Like, I thought such a result is only able to be made if a cause of death could not be determined, but an examiner knows she was very agitated beforehand.

There's a pretty extensive breakdown of the ME's reasoning in the report starting on page 46.

Lemming posted:

"Excited delirium" is about as real as hysteria. It's code for "killed by police," sanitized it so it doesn't seem like it's the police's fault.

The police killed her, and the taser was one of the tools they used to kill her.

Would you care to explain the mechanism then? Since the ME ruled out electrocution or a heart attack brought on by electrocution as the cause of death? Or is this just a case of "she was tased and later died, and that's all the evidence I need."

VitalSigns posted:

Treatment that causes unnecessary and completely avoidable death is brutal treatment, by definition.

And saying deaths from this treatment isn't foreseeable is obviously not true, because if it were actually impossible to predict that torturing a mentally ill woman with a taser until she dies of heart failure might cause unnecessary deaths then it would be impossible to define better procedures to avoid it in the future.

No, it's not. Avoidable in the future is not the same as foreseeable at the time. If the police handcuff a suspect and their head explodes like Scanners due to the suspect's violent, un-diagnosed handcuff allergy, the department may take steps to prevent that from happening in the future, but it doesn't mean that dying was a foreseeable outcome of being handcuffed.

Toasticle posted:

I never said anything about them being "morally culpable" for her death. I don't think anyone said the sole or even primary reason for her death was the tazing but it sure as gently caress didn't help.

What I did say was unless there was some urgent need for her to be moved right now then if she's obviously scared out of her mind and resisting then wait, get a nurse and maybe sedate her and don't use pain to get a schizophrenic scared out her mind to stop resisting. Everyone subjected to repeated pain doesn't get calmer, they get worse. While repeated shocking is not the key reason for her death it sure as gently caress did nothing to make it better. A mentally ill patient, especially her specific situation the way they did things did nothing but make her even more frightened and more resistant.

And why does this get even the slightest bit of a pass? Again nobody can point to a singular action that had it not happened she'd be alive but somebody at some point absolutely should have said "This isn't working everyone back off and let's try something else". There isn't a job outside law enforcement where using the excuse "Well everything I did was by accepted procedure" if the end result is a massive fuckup especially if it ends up killing someone. You expect people to be able to assess the situation and have the experience to say "ok this isn't working stop and try this differently". Not keep doing what your doing if it's obviously not working.

They were told that they needed to transport McKenna to Alexandria, at which point she was likely going to be hospitalized. Previously, they had been forced to restrain her for hours at a time when she fought with deputies. Can sheriffs legally sedate people in their custody outside a clinical setting? I don't think it's reasonable to insist that the entire detention system wait for a delusional person to decide to comply of their own free will, especially since uncooperative prisoners are regularly restrained and transported without killing them.

As for your second point: in many jobs, being able to say that you did everything according to established procedure is often the only thing that will save you if there is a massive gently caress-up resulting in a loss of life. Aviation, for example.

Raerlynn posted:

Stop it. Stop doing the same bullshit thing you've done before in this thread that Semper Wifi, Dead Reckoning, Actorhesus, and others have done. You're nit picking a word and trying to, out of the corner of your mouth, downplay how this was a terrible, horrible murder.

Stop loving minimizing that they beat and tortured a woman to death who literally didn't understand what was going on around her, who couldn't comply because she was. Not. Sane.

It's not a murder. They didn't beat her, they didn't torture her. There was no intent to kill or injure, and death was not a foreseeable outcome of their actions. Their actions were not unnecessary or sadistic. Stop using inaccurate, emotive words to try to shut down people who disagree with you.

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:05

spacetoaster: Feb 10, 2014

botany posted:

He's 14 years old.

What does that have to do with anything? Highschool kids have actually bombed their schools before.

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:07

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

spacetoaster posted:

What does that have to do with anything? Highschool kids have actually bombed their schools before.

Because its not a bomb. It doesn't look like a bomb, as it had no attached explosives. The police admitted they never actually thought it was a bomb. The kid told everyone it wasn't a bomb. He was bringing it to school to show his engineering teacher.

The fact that he is 14 matters when everyone hand-waves away an insane overreaction by saying "well, he should have known better than to try to bring a homemade clock to school as a brown kid".

They handcuffed this kid in the middle of school, interrogated him without letting him contact his parents, and still claim it wasn't a clock. But lets blame the kid for not expecting this overreaction because of his skin color and name.

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:10

Booourns: Jan 20, 2004; Please send a report when you see me complain about other posters and threads outside of QCS

~thanks!

So are they going to press charges against the teacher who saw the "hoax bomb" but then didn't alert the police and told the kid to hide it?

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:12

spacetoaster: Feb 10, 2014

Trabisnikof posted:

Because its not a bomb. It doesn't look like a bomb, as it had no attached explosives. The police admitted they never actually thought it was a bomb. The kid told everyone it wasn't a bomb. He was bringing it to school to show his engineering teacher.

The fact that he is 14 matters when everyone hand-waves away an insane overreaction by saying "well, he should have known better than to try to bring a homemade clock to school as a brown kid".

They handcuffed this kid in the middle of school, interrogated him without letting him contact his parents, and still claim it wasn't a clock. But lets blame the kid for not expecting this overreaction because of his skin color and name.

Ok, I agree with everything you wrote except the part about not looking like a bomb.

I looks like a bomb to me. Suitcase, big digital countdown, wires and circuit boards everywhere.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:14

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

spacetoaster posted:

Ok, I agree with everything you wrote except the part about not looking like a bomb.

I looks like a bomb to me. Suitcase, big digital countdown, wires and circuit boards everywhere.

it wasn't a suitcase, it was a pencil case. the thing was maybe 12 inches long and a few inches deep. if you're dumb enough to think that tiny little thing is a bomb maybe you're qualified to work for the Irving PD Bomb Identification Task Force

check out this terrorist mastermind coordinating nefarious plots on his highly advanced terrorist smartphone:

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:15

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

spacetoaster posted:

Ok, I agree with everything you wrote except the part about not looking like a bomb.

I looks like a bomb to me. Suitcase, big digital countdown, wires and circuit boards everywhere.

You're ignoring the scale of the thing. It wasn't a suitcase, it was a pencil case. (check the power plug in the pic if you don't believe me)

Also, there's no evidence thus far it ever had a "countdown" fyi.

It just "went off" or "rang" during one class. The teacher of that class recognized it was a clock but said that since someone else might not, she was confiscating it.

Later he was arrested for bringing the clock to school.

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:17

Control Volume: Dec 31, 2008

If you think wires and circuitboards look like a bomb it's because you've never worked with a breadboard.

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:17

Dexo: Aug 15, 2009; A city that was to live by night after the wilderness had passed. A city that was to forge out of steel and blood-red neon its own peculiar wilderness.

spacetoaster posted:

Ok, I agree with everything you wrote except the part about not looking like a bomb.

I looks like a bomb to me. Suitcase, big digital countdown, wires and circuit boards everywhere.

looool

Not gonna take the bait tho

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:18

bango skank: Jan 15, 2008; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

spacetoaster posted:

Ok, I agree with everything you wrote except the part about not looking like a bomb.

I looks like a bomb to me. Suitcase, big digital countdown, wires and circuit boards everywhere.

I guess you're entitled to your opinion even if it is a retarded one.

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:19

Trabisnikof: Dec 24, 2005

Control Volume posted:

If you think wires and circuitboards look like a bomb it's because you've never worked with a breadboard.

And the cops at no time believed it was actually a bomb to be clear. They just suspected him of bringing a hoax bomb to school because well, they'd do that to any kid who brings a clock and not just the Muslims.

Meanwhile, the Mayor is attacking Muslims for having interpersonal mediators available to their community. But guys, there's no discrimination here!

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:19

Phone: Jul 30, 2005; 親子丼をほしい。

I'd like to see a defense of the cop saying "I'm not surprised who it was" when the kid was pulled into an administrator's office.

Please, please, please do that one next.

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:21

Control Volume: Dec 31, 2008

Well see, this cop knew that it was a simple electronics project to build a clock, and saw a lanky nerdy kid and thought, "Yeah, that's the sort of person who would be interested in STEM, it just makes sense"

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:25

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

"ah, ahmed. we've got a list of your report cards a mile long back at the station. very impressive... TOO impressive, if you ask me."

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:26

tezcat: Jan 1, 2005

Jarmak posted:

This is why this thread sucks by the way, someone posts something retarded and there's two pages of people trying to ~~defend it before transitioning to " why are you guys nitpicking"~~reason with dumb fuckers being dumb.

spacetoaster posted:

I looks like a bomb to me. Suitcase, big digital countdown, wires and circuit boards everywhere.

You wanna see some dumb poo poo, check this out Jarmak. But given your defense of other things, I wont be shocked if you choose to look the other way on this one.

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:31

nm: Jan 28, 2008; "I saw Minos the Space Judge holding a golden sceptre and passing sentence upon the Martians. There he presided, and around him the noble Space Prosecutors sought the firm justice of space law."

Phone posted:

I'd like to see a defense of the cop saying "I'm not surprised who it was" when the kid was pulled into an administrator's office.

Please, please, please do that one next.

He's gonna claim he didn't say it.

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:32

spacetoaster: Feb 10, 2014

spacetoaster posted:

Look at this operator here.

All my suitcase bomb experience is from TV shows, so yeah.

What seal team are you on?

i don't get it, are you trying to say that i'm claiming i'm in the military because i'm pointing out your argument is stupid and unrealistic or what. this seems kind of sad. it's ok to admit that you're wrong sometimes, learning from mistakes is a necessary part of intellectual growth

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:38

upgunned shitpost: Jan 21, 2015

Phone posted:

I'd like to see a defense of the cop saying "I'm not surprised who it was" when the kid was pulled into an administrator's office.

Please, please, please do that one next.

Being home to Texas Instruments, the local constabulary often have to deal with the wild proclivities of engineers, or 'gearheads' as they're known colloquially. They're an easily identifiably group, which can be determined through various 'pre-science indicators' such as glasses or clothing which venerates space or their own anarchist leadership, like Sagan or Hadfield. The officers, who are trained just like doctors, were immediately able to recognize the nerd 'to no surprise' and neutralize the threat. Those brave officers acted within policy, having all the reasonable suspicion needed to affect an arrest, namely something they didn't understand and a brown or black dude in close proximity to it.

The important thing to remember is that everyone is at fault and by that measure no one is responsible, except the kid. He gets to live with that google search linking him to a bomb plot for the rest of his life... which leads to the old adage 'just because you're innocent doesn't mean you ain't getting hosed over'.

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:39

semper wifi: Oct 31, 2007

Trabisnikof posted:

And the cops at no time believed it was actually a bomb to be clear. They just suspected him of bringing a hoax bomb to school because well, they'd do that to any kid who brings a clock and not just the Muslims.

Meanwhile, the Mayor is attacking Muslims for having interpersonal mediators available to their community. But guys, there's no discrimination here!

Charging him was excessive but I don't find the thinking behind the "hoax bomb" thing unreasonable. "Hey this kid's got a beeping box with a time readout on it, that happens to look pretty much like a stereotypical movie bomb, showing it off after someone he ostensibly respects told him explicitly not to, I wonder why"

Also lol "for having interpersonal mediators available" honestly I'm impressed with this spin, freep level stuff but in the exact opposite direction.

semper wifi posted:

Charging him was excessive but I don't find the thinking behind the "hoax bomb" thing unreasonable. "Hey this kid's got a beeping box with a time readout on it, showing it off after someone he ostensibly respects told him explicitly not to, I wonder why"

except that isn't what happened, he handed it over to the teacher. please don't just make things up when you feel like being racist, expecially not when we've been discussing actual facts for the last couple pages. it makes you look desperate

semper wifi posted:

"small" and "explosive" aren't mutually exclusive you know

ah yes, i'm sure the 14 year old muslim boy got his hands on highly advanced military thumbnail nukes

seriously you're coming across as kind of deranged for thinking a teenage boy can fit a dangerous homemade explosive in his pocket. watch less tv son

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:41

Phone: Jul 30, 2005; 親子丼をほしい。

semper wifi posted:

Charging him was excessive but I don't find the thinking behind the "hoax bomb" thing unreasonable. "Hey this kid's got a beeping box with a time readout on it, that happens to look pretty much like a stereotypical movie bomb, showing it off after someone he ostensibly respects told him explicitly not to, I wonder why"

Also lol "for having interpersonal mediators available" honestly I'm impressed with this spin, freep level stuff but in the exact opposite direction.

"small" and "explosive" aren't mutually exclusive you know

You probably think Mission Impossible was a documentary.

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:42

Dexo: Aug 15, 2009; A city that was to live by night after the wilderness had passed. A city that was to forge out of steel and blood-red neon its own peculiar wilderness.

semper wifi posted:

Charging him was excessive but I don't find the thinking behind the "hoax bomb" thing unreasonable. "Hey this kid's got a beeping box with a time readout on it, that happens to look pretty much like a stereotypical movie bomb, showing it off after someone he ostensibly respects told him explicitly not to, I wonder why"

Also lol "for having interpersonal mediators available" honestly I'm impressed with this spin, freep level stuff but in the exact opposite direction.

"small" and "explosive" aren't mutually exclusive you know

The teacher asked him what was beeping in his bag, So he showed the teacher. he had no plans of showing anyone other than his engineering teacher til he was forced to otherwise.

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:42

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

highly sophisticated terrorist device loaded with toxic shrapnel confiscated from area jihadist

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:43

spacetoaster: Feb 10, 2014

Dead Reckoning posted:

There's a pretty extensive breakdown of the ME's reasoning in the report starting on page 46.
Would you care to explain the mechanism then? Since the ME ruled out electrocution or a heart attack brought on by electrocution as the cause of death? Or is this just a case of "she was tased and later died, and that's all the evidence I need."

In the report you yourself just linked, which you clearly didn't very much of, there was this quote:

quote:

The Medical Examiner's Report of Autopsy concludes that the manner of Ms.
McKenna's death was accidental and was caused by excited delirium associated with physical
restraint including use of conducted energy device, along with the additional contributing factors
of schizophrenia and bipolar disorder.

They specifically call out the taser as being a factor in her death. Dumbass.

I don't think the cops went in there with the intent of killing her and I don't think anybody here has argued that at any point. However, they did kill her, and it was extremely unnecessary and in my opinion, negligent, because instead of trying to treat her like a mentally ill woman who needed help, they treated her like a rational violent criminal.

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:45

boner confessor: Apr 25, 2013; by R. Guyovich

spacetoaster posted:

I just think it's sad that I can't even say the thing looks kinda like a bomb to me without being called a retard and everyone assuming I think what happened to the kid was cool and good. But D&D

if you can't handle being called stupid when you make stupid posts, maybe you shouldn't make stupid posts. if that think looked like a bomb to you then you must spend all day holed up playing call of duty, because to me it looked like a circuit board shoved into a little box.

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:46

Phone: Jul 30, 2005; 親子丼をほしい。

spacetoaster posted:

I just think it's sad that I can't even say the thing looks kinda like a bomb to me without being called a retard and everyone assuming I think what happened to the kid was cool and good. But D&D

You posted that you think it looked like a bomb to you because ____________________.

If you answer includes "it has wires and batteries", I have some bad news for you.

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:48

serious gaylord: Sep 16, 2007; what.

I've got to be honest, not being an explosives expert if I'd have found that thing unattended I would have reported it as a suspicious item.

The key there is if it was unattended.

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:49

upgunned shitpost: Jan 21, 2015

What if it's all just a sleeper plot so this young ISIS convert can whack Barry Sotero now that he's been invited to the White House?

What if guys!?!

# ? Sep 16, 2015 20:50

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# ? May 31, 2024 02:58

semper wifi: Oct 31, 2007

Dexo posted:

The teacher asked him what was beeping in his bag, So he showed the teacher. he had no plans of showing anyone other than his engineering teacher til he was forced to otherwise.

So the kid's got the knowhow to put this thing together in 20 minutes but doesn't know how to turn it off? I'm not even saying I agree with the bomb hoax thing, I think kid doing dumb thing innocently is a much more realistic explanation. Also the amount of explosives in the thing is irrelevant, the shoe bomber just had his shoes stuffed full of gunpowder and he still got life.

Phone posted:

You posted that you think it looked like a bomb to you because ____________________.
If you answer includes "it has wires and batteries", I have some bad news for you.