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Ligur posted:For their own citizens. That is what a government in a state is for. I don't think anyone here has so far suggested across your line of questioning that refugees resettled in Europe shouldn't be made citizens.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:16
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A bit late, but Google is doing a thing: https://onetoday.google.com/page/refugeerelief/
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Sep 17, 2015 16:23
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Why should anyone ever lift a finger to ever help anyone else? After all, it's not like we as a species have ever pooled our resources and energy to help deal with a crisis even though we didn't directly contribute to its creation. Every man is an island entire of itself, the bell tolls for no one and why even give a gently caress about anything anyway.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:26
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Finland owes the world reparations for their contributions to power metal IMO.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:27
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It's funny when nationalists talk about how their tax dollars should only go to help citizens, as if that was a meaningful complaint in the face of a humanitarian crisis.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:27
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gradenko_2000 posted:I don't think anyone here has so far suggested across your line of questioning that refugees resettled in Europe shouldn't be made citizens. You saying they should be made citizens just because they arrive to place X or what was this post about? Sorry I have the flu and I'm tired.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:44
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Maybe if you didn't live in the land of ice and racism you wouldn't have caught the flu.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:47
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Says the person from the land of rain and racism.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:48
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Ligur posted:For their own citizens. That is what a government in a state is for. Hmm well taking a look at the large investments in international humanitarian aid that governments routinely make, it seems you are historically wrong about this.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:53
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In an interesting twist, it seems Germany is planning huge cuts to its asylum seeker benefits system. It almost seems like they're trolling the migrants now.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:54
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Ligur posted:You saying they should be made citizens just because they arrive to place X Yes, otherwise I don't know why you're even asking about the possibility of them ever becoming "nice social democrats" and/or "new workers" if you're not going to allow them to be.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:55
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The European Project really is being a right poo poo in the bathtub at the moment, isn't it?
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Sep 17, 2015 16:56
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Tesseraction posted:The European Project really is being a right poo poo in the bathtub at the moment, isn't it? Yes it is. Thanks to the fact the European Project is being European Projected by people who are not even from Europe.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:58
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Can you rephrase that to make sense please.
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Sep 17, 2015 16:59
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Tesseraction posted:Can you rephrase that to make sense please.
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Sep 17, 2015 17:08
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Tesseraction posted:Can you rephrase that to make sense please. Foreigners!
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Sep 17, 2015 17:14
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murphyslaw posted:Why should anyone ever lift a finger to ever help anyone else? After all, it's not like we as a species have ever pooled our resources and energy to help deal with a crisis even though we didn't directly contribute to its creation. Every man is an island entire of itself, the bell tolls for no one and why even give a gently caress about anything anyway. I don't think you get alot of anti-refugee arguments. If everyone is an island and people interchangeable, then open the border. It might boost some abstract economic indicator and you can just move to a neighborhood where you don't have to see the violent slums. Conversely, if people are part of culture, then mass immigration can be immensely disruptive to the existing society and cause the importation of the communities and cultural complexes that are exactly why those people were fleeing in the first place. The crisis of the middle east is largely the middle eastern muslim community itself. The situation in Iraq and Syria is a human created problem and a lot of the humans that bear some of the responsiblity want to move to Europe where every indication is that they'll just do their best to recreate it. Your importing the problem, not solving it. Until they've fixed their poo poo, providing a safety valve does nothing but keep their state of perpetual crisis going and pull a larger area into it. A limited number of refugees, particularly women/children/religious minorities, is compassionate. A million young men who have a problem with their countries being shitholes, but are fully indoctrinated into the things that made their countries shitholes, is a disaster in the making.
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Sep 17, 2015 17:47
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Well this should calm things down https://www.rt.com/news/315764-berlin-terrorist-stabbing-killed/ quote:Police have killed a known Islamic extremist from Iraq, who was waving a knife in a Berlin street. He attacked a female officer, according to German prosecutors.
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Sep 17, 2015 17:49
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SickZip posted:A limited number of refugees, particularly women/children/religious minorities, is compassionate. A million young men who have a problem with their countries being shitholes, but are fully indoctrinated into the things that made their countries shitholes, is a disaster in the making. Authoritarian capitalism and neocolonial interventions?
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Sep 17, 2015 17:49
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If Muslims move to Europe, America will just start bombing Muslims in Europe and setting up brutal dictatorships to get good deals on European resources, so it just isn't worth the risk. E: I'm obviously kidding, I'm sure Britain and France will beat us to stealing all the good stuff VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 18:00 on Sep 17, 2015 |
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Sep 17, 2015 17:52
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L-Boned posted:Some people aren't worth trying to understand. Like people who argue hardcore for women's rights while justifying the right of others to treat women like sub-humans based on their religious beliefs. Liberals?
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Sep 17, 2015 17:56
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SickZip posted:The crisis of the middle east is largely the middle eastern muslim community itself. The situation in Iraq and Syria is a human created problem and a lot of the humans that bear some of the responsiblity want to move to Europe where every indication is that they'll just do their best to recreate it. Your importing the problem, not solving it. Until they've fixed their poo poo, providing a safety valve does nothing but keep their state of perpetual crisis going and pull a larger area into it. Dick Cheney and David Addington want to move to Europe?
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Sep 17, 2015 17:59
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:Authoritarian capitalism and neocolonial interventions? I'm of Assyrian descent so blaming America/Europe for the mid east doesn't work on me when the members of my family that escaped to America are the only survivors of their neighbors deciding to murder people for not being Muslim. European intervention was not the cause and was the only reason there were any survivors
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Sep 17, 2015 18:00
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murphyslaw posted:Why should anyone ever lift a finger to ever help anyone else? After all, it's not like we as a species have ever pooled our resources and energy to help deal with a crisis even though we didn't directly contribute to its creation. Every man is an island entire of itself, the bell tolls for no one and why even give a gently caress about anything anyway. Well, if you're going to stake out a position that people who are suffering have a moral right to the resources of wealthy countries, and that wealthy countries have a complementary obligation to provide those resources, you have to be willing to discuss the limits of that right and the practical challenges involved (especially if you're going to include people merely suffering from a low standard of living) or you have to articulate an unlimited right and deal with the problems that brings. So far no one has been willing to do that other than SedanChair with is "full communism now" shtick that we all know isn't serious.
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Sep 17, 2015 18:06
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SickZip posted:I'm of Assyrian descent so blaming America/Europe for the mid east doesn't work on me when the members of my family that escaped to America are the only survivors of their neighbors deciding to murder people for not being Muslim. European intervention was not the cause and was the only reason there were any survivors Do you know what the Syrian Civil War is? Do you know what the War in Afghanistan (2001-) is? Do you know what the Iraq War is? These are all struggles caused or exacerbated by neocolonial intervention. You are dumb, which is why you assume that I'm blaming "just" Europeans. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Sep 17, 2015 |
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Sep 17, 2015 18:07
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SickZip posted:I'm of Assyrian descent so blaming America/Europe for the mid east doesn't work on me when the members of my family that escaped to America are the only survivors of their neighbors deciding to murder people for not being Muslim. European intervention was not the cause and was the only reason there were any survivors  Well, it certainly is a good thing America didn't listen to people like you and slam the door in your family's faces!
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Sep 17, 2015 18:09
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SickZip, do you know what Saudi-Arabia and Iran, both authoritarian capitalist states, are doing in the Middle East? Do you know that Western states have started two Middle-Eastern wars in the last fifteen years, and that they support dangerous, violent theocracy? How is the migrant crisis not partly caused by neocolonial interventions?
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Sep 17, 2015 18:10
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Woozey posted:In an interesting twist, it seems Germany is planning huge cuts to its asylum seeker benefits system. Source? In 2012 the Federal Constitutional Court ruled that asylum seeker benefits cannot be lower than "existence minimum", which is 206€ + individual bonuses (usually 130€) per month.
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Sep 17, 2015 18:21
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:"Let's give the Taliban the benefit of the doubt on this." -A poster who claims to be a feminist. Well it's the same posters completely handwaving away that the average views on women and gay persons from the region are to the right of the tea party, so it's not really a surprise honestly. SickZip posted:I don't think you get alot of anti-refugee arguments. If everyone is an island and people interchangeable, then open the border. It might boost some abstract economic indicator and you can just move to a neighborhood where you don't have to see the violent slums. Conversely, if people are part of culture, then mass immigration can be immensely disruptive to the existing society and cause the importation of the communities and cultural complexes that are exactly why those people were fleeing in the first place. The left is being completely tone-deaf on the issue and it's going to lead to really bad things unfortunately. A rise in far right parties is basically inevitable at this point. TROIKA CURES GREEK fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Sep 17, 2015 |
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Sep 17, 2015 18:29
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e: I should stop parroting one guy
BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Sep 17, 2015 |
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Sep 17, 2015 18:44
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SickZip posted:The crisis of the middle east is largely the middle eastern muslim community itself. The situation in Iraq and Syria is a human created problem and a lot of the humans that bear some of the responsiblity want to move to Europe where every indication is that they'll just do their best to recreate it. Your importing the problem, not solving it. Until they've fixed their poo poo, providing a safety valve does nothing but keep their state of perpetual crisis going and pull a larger area into it. Agreed. The Assyrian Christians in Syria are at least partially responsible for the rise of ISIS, and if we let them into Europe, they'll just make another ISIS there. We need to force them to stay and fix their ISIS problem or we're not dealing with it correctly. Good points op.
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Sep 17, 2015 18:54
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Sweden apparently receiving ca 1000 asylum seekers a day (!), and is rapidly running out of places to house them.
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Sep 17, 2015 18:59
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It had over 5k applicants last week.
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Sep 17, 2015 19:02
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Honj Steak posted:Source? In 2012 the Federal Constitutional Court ruled that asylum seeker benefits cannot be lower than "existence minimum", which is 206€ + individual bonuses (usually 130€) per month. http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/fluechtlingskrise/gesetzentwurf-de-maiziere-will-leistungen-fuer-fluechtlinge-stark-kuerzen-13808455.html http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/gesetzentwurf-wegen-fluechtlingskrise-regierung-plant-verschaerfung-des-asylrechts-1.2652770 These are the links I was given, though I can't speak for the authenticity, or that google translate is telling me what I think it's telling me.
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Sep 17, 2015 19:08
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Woozey posted:http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/fluechtlingskrise/gesetzentwurf-de-maiziere-will-leistungen-fuer-fluechtlinge-stark-kuerzen-13808455.html Yeah just found them, too. The proposal is to cut the benefits for refugees Germany is taking in although they already have been registered in another EU country. It's anyway questionable if this proposal is feasible because of the forementioned supreme court ruling.
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Sep 17, 2015 19:12
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So Croatia has now made a statement that they are full and the military has been put into a ready stance. Any bets on the border closing before the end of the week?
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Sep 17, 2015 19:30
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Woozey posted:http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/fluechtlingskrise/gesetzentwurf-de-maiziere-will-leistungen-fuer-fluechtlinge-stark-kuerzen-13808455.html The proposal are aimed at people that try to exploit the German asylum system. One group that will see their benefits cut are people who had their asylum application denied and who than try to block their deportation by either losing their passports are refusing to state their country of origin. Another group that is going to see cuts are refugees who are not compliant with the Dublin treaty, which means those who traveled to German via another EU member state. Basically the German government has the following strategy to deal with the crisis: a) Deport people that get their application denied faster and give them fewer incentives to try in the first place. (less money, no freedom of movement during the time their application get processed etc.) b) Start to enforce the Dublin rules more strictly, because it is not tenable that Germany has to bear the burden that is caused by the failure of Greece and Italy to do their job. This will increase the pressure on the EU to develop a long-term solution (probably some kind of quota system) Cake Smashing Boob posted:Sweden apparently receiving ca 1000 asylum seekers a day (!), and is rapidly running out of places to house them. Germany had 7000 asylum seekers yesterday and is having the same problems.
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Sep 17, 2015 19:39
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kikkelivelho posted:So Croatia has now made a statement that they are full and the military has been put into a ready stance. Any bets on the border closing before the end of the week? To be fair to Croatia, they did handle the situation according to the treaties they signed, in contrast to Italy, Austria, Hungary, Greece who just want the refugees to go away and be someone else's problem. If they now say "we can't handle anymore refugees" that's their perrogative, especially since Serbia, a country that has an active application to the EU, can be classified as safe 3rd country, in which the refugees would have to apply for asylum.
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Sep 17, 2015 19:47
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Honj Steak posted:Yeah just found them, too. The proposal is to cut the benefits for refugees Germany is taking in although they already have been registered in another EU country. It's anyway questionable if this proposal is feasible because of the forementioned supreme court ruling. Combine that plan with the recent ECJ ruling that non-citizens can be withheld welfare payments and it doesn't look like too big a hurdle to pass.
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Sep 17, 2015 19:48
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GaussianCopula posted:To be fair to Croatia, they did handle the situation according to the treaties they signed, in contrast to Italy, Austria, Hungary, Greece who just want the refugees to go away and be someone else's problem. If they now say "we can't handle anymore refugees" that's their perrogative, especially since Serbia, a country that has an active application to the EU, can be classified as safe 3rd country, in which the refugees would have to apply for asylum. I'm not really making GBS threads on Croatia or anything. So far most of the smaller countries have done the exact same thing. Just wondering what the next route is for the refugees if Croatia also stops letting them through.
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Sep 17, 2015 19:50
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