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karneisada posted:I've been watching a lot of ridiculous b-grade male power fantasy action movies and I realized I don't know if I've ever seen a female power fantasy movie. Maybe I have but I just don't know the frame of reference or something. Any suggestions on female power fantasy movies? This is kind of a funny question because "male power fantasy" is so connected to cultural conceptions of masculinity I dunno how you'd translate that exactly.
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Sep 17, 2015 08:38
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karneisada posted:I've been watching a lot of ridiculous b-grade male power fantasy action movies and I realized I don't know if I've ever seen a female power fantasy movie. Maybe I have but I just don't know the frame of reference or something. Any suggestions on female power fantasy movies? The Twilight series.
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Sep 17, 2015 12:39
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karneisada posted:I've been watching a lot of ridiculous b-grade male power fantasy action movies and I realized I don't know if I've ever seen a female power fantasy movie. Maybe I have but I just don't know the frame of reference or something. Any suggestions on female power fantasy movies? Attack of the 50 Foot Woman is a power fantasy, if we're talking about sheer physical dominance. The 1950's setting reacts predictably badly though and I'm still not sure if it's supposed to be a feminist movie or a cautionary tale. It is definitely a ridiculous B-movie though.
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Sep 17, 2015 13:46
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karneisada posted:I've been watching a lot of ridiculous b-grade male power fantasy action movies and I realized I don't know if I've ever seen a female power fantasy movie. Maybe I have but I just don't know the frame of reference or something. Any suggestions on female power fantasy movies? The Violent Years.
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Sep 17, 2015 14:06
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Would Doomsday count?
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Sep 17, 2015 14:08
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Not strictly physical power fantasies, but there are a load of movies like The Princess Diaries, Troop Beverly Hills, etc.
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Sep 17, 2015 14:57
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karneisada posted:I've been watching a lot of ridiculous b-grade male power fantasy action movies and I realized I don't know if I've ever seen a female power fantasy movie. Maybe I have but I just don't know the frame of reference or something. Any suggestions on female power fantasy movies?
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Sep 17, 2015 15:08
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karneisada posted:I've been watching a lot of ridiculous b-grade male power fantasy action movies and I realized I don't know if I've ever seen a female power fantasy movie. Maybe I have but I just don't know the frame of reference or something. Any suggestions on female power fantasy movies? Under the Skin Gone Girl
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Sep 17, 2015 15:10
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Snak posted:The problem is that most would-be female power fantasy movies are made by men and end up... questionable at best. See: Sucker Punch. Is it CineD consensus that it's brilliant satire by Snyder? I like most of Snyder's movies, but found this one questionable as well. edit: I'm not sure I'd count Under the Skin as a female power fantasy.
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Sep 17, 2015 15:47
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karneisada posted:I've been watching a lot of ridiculous b-grade male power fantasy action movies and I realized I don't know if I've ever seen a female power fantasy movie. Maybe I have but I just don't know the frame of reference or something. Any suggestions on female power fantasy movies? Friday the 13th
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Sep 17, 2015 15:54
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karneisada posted:I've been watching a lot of ridiculous b-grade male power fantasy action movies and I realized I don't know if I've ever seen a female power fantasy movie. Maybe I have but I just don't know the frame of reference or something. Any suggestions on female power fantasy movies? In that vein, Red Sonja? ...Cannibal Women in the Avocado Jungle of Death?
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Sep 17, 2015 16:43
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karneisada posted:I've been watching a lot of ridiculous b-grade male power fantasy action movies and I realized I don't know if I've ever seen a female power fantasy movie. Maybe I have but I just don't know the frame of reference or something. Any suggestions on female power fantasy movies? Maybe The Descent?
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Sep 17, 2015 16:51
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Does Kill Bill count?
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Sep 17, 2015 17:23
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MacheteZombie posted:Is it CineD consensus that it's brilliant satire by Snyder? I like most of Snyder's movies, but found this one questionable as well. I mean, whether you think it's sexist or not, it's not a very good movie. I think it would have helped if Scott Glenn's character had been female. I love Scott Glenn, but his character works against the female empowerment aspect of the film. Lots of ideas in the film are pretty solid, but at the end of they day, if you make a film that, on its surface is still exploitative, does it really matter if its message isn't? The Descent is pretty good, but I wouldn't really call it a female power fantasy, because most of the character is reactionary to the loss of her husband. It fits into that category of strong female character movies that is about them overcoming a bad situation. There are plenty of movies with male protagonists where men start out feeling weak and then prove they are strong, but I wouldn't consider those male power fantasies either. When I think of male power fantasies, I think of movies like Commando or Cobra, where the protagonist is a huge badass from the beginning, and he never doubts himself. Movies with strong females leads tend to fall into one of two catergories: Either a woman believes she is weak and learns that she is strong, or a tough woman realizes that she has become callous and needs to recapture her humanity. Neither of these is inherently bad, but it's kind of sad that there's a lack of "woman is awesome from the beginning" Furiosa in Fury Road is close, but she's half of a lead duo, and unlike a Schwarzenegger character, she needs guidance at the end.
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Sep 17, 2015 17:51
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Aliens and Last Kiss Goodnight?
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Sep 17, 2015 18:36
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Heathers would be a good example.
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Sep 17, 2015 18:38
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syscall girl posted:Aliens and Last Kiss Goodnight? If you mean The Long Kiss Goodnight that's a pretty good one. It's like if Total Recall and The Bourne Identity had a baby starring Gina Davis. I don't think Aliens is anyone's power fantasy... But yeah, good call on The Long Kiss Goodnight. Gina Davis kicks serious rear end in that movie, and doesn't depend on other characters to tell her what to do or guide her choices. Samuel L. Jackson is her sidekick.
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Sep 17, 2015 18:39
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I haven't seen Felt (2015) but Felt sounds like a pretty wonderful possibly reverse-slasher/superhero (???) study through a rape culture lens. It might be more character driven than a typical "power fantasy," or I could be describing it completely wrong regardless as I'm trying not to learn much about it before seeing, but yeah, probably worth a watch regardless.Hat Thoughts posted:This is kind of a funny question because "male power fantasy" is so connected to cultural conceptions of masculinity I dunno how you'd translate that exactly. This is a good point. Slashers that employ the "final girl" on the surface initially seem like female power fantasies of sorts, but when read figuratively she usually comes out on top because she embraces her masculine side/stabs the villain with a phallus. I've been tossing around Ex Machina in my head as playing with these tropes, where the "Final Girl" in this case explicitly discovers her femininity and locks her would-be captor in a room/womb, but idk, the tech angle is obviously complicating.
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Sep 17, 2015 18:41
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The only slasher that I know of off the top of my head that has a survivor girl who is really empowered the whole time is You're Next Sorry to put blind tags like that, but I can't really say the movie without giving something away about it, given the context of the conversation. But I still wouldn't call it a female power fantasy.
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Sep 17, 2015 18:45
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Hat Thoughts posted:This is kind of a funny question because "male power fantasy" is so connected to cultural conceptions of masculinity I dunno how you'd translate that exactly. Yeah... I get the feeling the poster is looking for movies where a woman has a male power fantasy, assuming there is a singular power fantasy involving physical dominance, making others do things against their will, and, in essence taking what you want. Rape, basically. My impression (I'm not a woman) of a less masculine power fantasy is that it's about being held in high regard/desirable. Being beautiful, popular, rich, respected. Being smart - but more importantly to have your intelligence recognized and so people trust your judgment. In essence it's about attracting what you want. To be loved, basically. I'll admit I don't watch a large enough variety of movies to feel confident in saying "THIS and THIS and THAT are female power fantasy movies" but I'd say movies where the female protagonist wields a vast amount of social influence through some combination of being smart, rich, beautiful, etc. would qualify.
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Sep 17, 2015 18:50
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Yeah, I feel like we're all afraid to post what we think female power fantasy movies are like.
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Sep 17, 2015 18:54
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Heathers would be a good example. I keep trying to get my movie night group to let me show them Heathers. I don't get why they are so averse to it.
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Sep 17, 2015 18:54
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Snak posted:If you mean The Long Kiss Goodnight that's a pretty good one. It's like if Total Recall and The Bourne Identity had a baby starring Gina Davis. Yeah sorry I haven't had my coffee yet, I meant The Long Kiss Goodnight.
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Sep 17, 2015 18:58
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I mean I guess now that I've talked about it a lot I should clarify what I was thinking of as a definition: I think that male power fantasies are characterized by the protagonist being inherently right and strong, both emotionally and physically. There are lots of movies where a man or woman learns something or adapts to overcome and obstacle. In the male power fantasy, the protagonist starts out with the skills they need to win. Many stories have a character learning and gaining what they need to win throughout the course of the story. A male power fantasy is almost always "you don't know who you just messed with" and they start out with everything they need to win. By this metric, Commando and John Wick are male power fantasies while Rocky and The Matrix are not. So translating this to a female power fantasy, I was looking at movies where weakness, physically or psychologically, wasn't a plot point for the protagonist. I think a hallmark of the power fantasy is that "You're already awesome, you don't need to change. It is others who are wrong" but this is a pretty fuzzy line. In general though, I don't think power fantasies are often about personal growth. When they are, they are still about being inherently awesome and the student immediately surpassing the master. edit^ in your defense, when I googled "Last Kiss Goodnight" to make sure it wasn't some other movie, The Long Kiss Goodnight was the first hit.
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Sep 17, 2015 19:00
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Hanna, maybe. It's perhaps a little too weird to be a straight power fantasy, but she definitely enters the picture ready to tear poo poo up.lizardman posted:I'll admit I don't watch a large enough variety of movies to feel confident in saying "THIS and THIS and THAT are female power fantasy movies" but I'd say movies where the female protagonist wields a vast amount of social influence through some combination of being smart, rich, beautiful, etc. would qualify. So, Legally Blonde.
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Sep 17, 2015 19:05
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Sir Kodiak posted:So, Legally Blonde. Or the movie it rips off most directly, Clueless.
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Sep 17, 2015 19:07
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marblize posted:This is a good point. Slashers that employ the "final girl" on the surface initially seem like female power fantasies of sorts, but when read figuratively she usually comes out on top because she embraces her masculine side/stabs the villain with a phallus. I'd say the "female power" part (or, at least the part that appeals to a feminine sensibility) of the Final Girl trope is the idea that the woman is being chased in the first place: her problem is that she's attracted something bad, in this case a killer who really, really desires (to kill) her. Funny enough, I think an ending where another character saves the woman from the killer/monster (and specifically because of love for the woman over just killing an evil thing) is more "female power fantasy" than one where she destroys the killer herself. A truly "female power fantasy" slasher film (again, just my impression) would probably be one where the Final Girl is eventually able to convince the killer to stop. I... don't think we've had one of those. marblize posted:I've been tossing around Ex Machina in my head as playing with these tropes, where the "Final Girl" in this case explicitly discovers her femininity and locks her would-be captor in a room/womb, but idk, the tech angle is obviously complicating. Ooh, good one!
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Sep 17, 2015 19:19
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Also, it may seem like I'm looking at just action films, but since I'm operating off of the premise that part of a power fantasy is that personal growth isn't required for victory, there's not a lot of a other genres that can get away with that little character developement for their protagonist. I think Sherlock could be an example of an intellectual power fantasy, since the premise is essentially that Sherlock Holmes is the the smartest and that is why he will win. See I wouldn't really count Legally Blonde, because Witherspoon's character starts out as naive and learns from experience what she needs to do to be successful. In the lens of a male power fantasy, it's less of a fantasy that training hard throughout the course of the movie will turn you into a badass. That's like, kind of, how it really works. The fantasy is that you have have a dick and balls and muscles and therefor you are awesome. This is why I brought up Haywire earlier, because the premise is that Gina Carano's character is a badass. That is never brought into question. She doesn't need to grow or change or learn anything about herself or the world to win. Bill Paxton, who playes her character's father, has a line where he says "She's a Marine. If she did something, it was for a good reason". Now, that line pretty hilarious in the context of reality, but in the movie it is strongly asserting that her character motivations have nothing to do with being scared, unsure, or a woman in a man's world.
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Sep 17, 2015 19:20
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Would Shoshanna Dreyfus from Inglourious Basterds count?
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Sep 17, 2015 19:27
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What you're looking for is a "Mary Sue": http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue I don't watch much romance, but I'm certain that's where you'll find the most Female Power Fantasies. A woman must convince her lover to change for her and eventually does (so it's the other character who experiences character development rather than the protagonist who's already perfect) is the kind of story you're looking for. EDIT: Or a storyline where a woman is Torn Between Two Lovers! Gosh her problem is that she is just SO wonderful that she's attracted two hunks, what a dilemma! lizardman fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Sep 17, 2015 |
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Sep 17, 2015 19:32
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lizardman posted:What you're looking for is a "Mary Sue": This is probably correct, but I haven't thought of any examples where, even when the "problem" is that the protagonist is so wonderful she attracts too many good romantic options, it didn't end up being the case that she needed to recognize and fix a flaw with herself. Usually movies like that end up being a journey of self-discovery for the protagonist. Which is fine, but I wouldn't consider it a power fantasy. Your first suggestion sounds like it would fit my definition of a power fantasy, but I can't think of any examples of movies that are actually like that.
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Sep 17, 2015 20:00
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MacheteZombie posted:Is it CineD consensus that it's brilliant satire by Snyder? I like most of Snyder's movies, but found this one questionable as well. I'm willing to buy Snyder was genuinely trying to make an empowerment film but it's muddled as gently caress.
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Sep 17, 2015 20:29
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Dr Monkeysee posted:I'm willing to buy Snyder was genuinely trying to make an empowerment film but it's muddled as gently caress. I definitely think he meant well. The opening sequence is the best and most powerful part of the film.
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Sep 17, 2015 20:33
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Yeah, I feel like we're all afraid to post what we think female power fantasy movies are like. While not a film, it feels like the approach (narratively) taken by Bioshock Infinite deserves a mention---the central conceit being that both the `good' male power fantasy (the avenging good guy protagonist) and the `bad' male power fantasy (the creepy, controlling, stuff-women-in-cages bad guy) are both inextricably part of the same narrative and as long as either continues they'll end up victimising other people one way or another. And so the only solution is to remove them entirely from the equation. I can't off the top of my head think of a film that takes the same approach. It's worth noting that it's all still framed explicitly from the male perspective for a presumptively predominantly male audience, relying on the fact that the `avenging good guy' will implicitly be accepted as the `right' course of action and interpretation of the events in the (entirely unnecessarily complicated) plot. So I'm not sure that you can entirely get away from that, the same way I think e.g. Sucker Punch can't get away from still being a by-the-numbers women in chains film---with the camera at a carefully calibrated PG-13 stocking top level---while objecting strenuously to the sensibilities of women in chains films; Truffaut said that you can't make an anti-war film, and to the extent that that's true you can't make an anti-exploitation exploitation film. Which is a long leisurely walk toward the point: if we accept that narrative is (or can be) gendered---and I'm not at all convinced that we must---then if we're being serious here I think we have to take a step back to ask where the locus of the `gendering' is. If we accept, and I think we have to, that it isn't in the person of the principle character, then I don't think we're forced to accept that it's in the message (or however you want to say it) rather than in the thing itself.
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Sep 17, 2015 22:56
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Snak posted:This is probably correct, but I haven't thought of any examples where, even when the "problem" is that the protagonist is so wonderful she attracts too many good romantic options, it didn't end up being the case that she needed to recognize and fix a flaw with herself. Usually movies like that end up being a journey of self-discovery for the protagonist. Which is fine, but I wouldn't consider it a power fantasy. Yep, and while I'm sure I'd be able to think of some examples if I'd watch more movies specifically meant for women, the main reason it's hard to think of examples is because it's considered poor form for a story not to have its protagonist develop character. Even with male power fantasy movies we have to look to sort of B-level action shlock, and it probably only gets a pass there because of the whole shut-your-brain-off-and-enjoy-the-'splosions aspect. I've done some work as an editor and I was once presented with a romance novel where the female protagonist was an environmentalist who wouldn't take back her capitalist boyfriend unless he changed his political beliefs. It didn't matter how right the protagonist was, it was an insufferable story to read. Just for fun, I've tried to come up with some examples of genre movies that may not qualify as Female Power Fantasies, but definitely have aspects that appeal to feminine sensibilities more than most: The Terminator: Sarah Connor starts the movie as a (not particularly good) waitress, but suddenly discovers she is the Most Important Person in the World and is pursued by a powerful and strong male figure that will stop at nothing to get to her. She is protected by an attractive young fighter, Kyle Reese, who is motivated not only for the sake of humanity - but because he is in love with her. Kyle dies protecting her, and she eventually destroys the terminator by luring it into a trap that crushes it. Titanic: Rich and beautiful socialite is unsatisfied in her relationship with hunky fiance, is saved from killing herself by another hunky guy who falls in love with her and convinces her that she is too wonderful to die. Spends the rest of the movie enjoying time with her new hunky boyfriend and being chased by jealous fiance in a lavish cruise ship. The ship sinks - in which we see many scenes of men staying on board the ship facing certain death so that their women may escape - and her hunky boyfriend sacrifices himself so that our protagonist may live, again because she is too wonderful to die. Friday the 13th Part 2: The Final Girl uses her knowledge of child psychology to manipulate Jason - the killer who has been pursuing her relentlessly through the climax - into surrendering and submitting to her will. Her trick is spoiled, but luckily she is saved at the last minute by her hunky boyfriend who ultimately dies for her. A Nightmare on Elm Street: Protagonist Nancy is being stalked by sicko Freddy Krueger. In the climax Nancy discovers Freddy thrives on her fear, and she refuses to extend him any more of her personal energy. Freddy is (temporarily at least) defeated because he apparently cannot exist without Nancy's attention. Scream 4: Sidney Prescott has garnered a level of fame and admiration for outwitting an unprecedented number of obsessed stalkers who manage to kill just about everyone else around Sidney but never her. When yet another killer emerges, Sidney faces the ire of jealous townspeople who view her ability to attract and survive scorned haters as a threat to their community. The killer turns out to be an envious wannabe who is trying to steal Sidney's fame. Sidney destroys the pretender to her throne and quips she is "the original" who shouldn't be hosed with. Basic Instinct / Body Heat / pretty much any 'femme fatale' movie: These movies feature rich and beautiful women who mastermind brilliant schemes that involve manipulating men who fall hopelessly in love with them, and they almost always get away with it at the end. These pretty much would be Female Power Fantasies if it weren't for the fact the femme fatale is always the villain of the movie. lizardman fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Sep 17, 2015 |
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Sep 17, 2015 23:39
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Let's get some Breillat up in this piece.
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Sep 17, 2015 23:49
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lizardman posted:Yep, and while I'm sure I'd be able to think of some examples if I'd watch more movies specifically meant for women, the main reason it's hard to think of examples is because it's considered poor form for a story not to have its protagonist develop character. Even with male power fantasy movies we have to look to sort of B-level action shlock, and it probably only gets a pass there because of the whole shut-your-brain-off-and-enjoy-the-'splosions aspect. This is exactly it. I would argue that the male power fantasy is a poor form of story. i think it can be directly related to the "Mary Sue". In order to further clarify this, I'm going to give some examples of movies that I consider male power fantasies, in contrast with some that aren't. Male Power Fantasies Commando John Wick Rambo 2 Fast 5 Cobra True Lies Die Hard Speed Not Male Power Fantasies Rambo 1 The Matrix Rocky The Fast and the Furious Mad Max Conan the Barbarian The Last Samurai The Bourne Identity Now,, obviously there are some good and bad movies in each category. But the thing about male power fantasies is that they, by my definition, have to be almost entirely plot driven. Three's some good movies in there, Die Hard is probably the one that people will universally say is good. One of the thing that people like about it is that Willis's character is more of a regular guy, rather than a Seagal, Stallone, or Schwarzenegger. The thing is, the premise of the movie is still that this regular guy is so tough and pragmatic that he wins against all odds. There aren't really any scenes in the movie where he's failing and needs to learn a lesson to succeed. There's no self-doubt. Die Hard is an example of how much good story telling you have to do get away with such a static protagonist. It also benefits from character revealing, rather than development. We learn more about John McClain throughout the course of the movie, even if he doesn't grow as a person. Honestly this is the most borderline movie on the list, but I felt if I was going to be unbiased, it was good to leave it there. The power fantasy is essentially escapist in nature and people like it because it's based around the idea of vindicating their masculine identity rather than telling them they need to fix themselves to be happy. The Rambo example is great for this, because Rambo 1 is about how John Rambo is broken and can't cope with what he saw and did in Vietnam and how society is back in the US. Rambo 2, in contrast, is about how if he was simply allowed to win, to direct his destruction on the guilty, his problems would be solved.
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Sep 18, 2015 00:08
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Nancy's conflict in NOES is also with the adult establishment as much as it's with Freddy. She's basically just tolerating their rule until she realizes that they're corrupt and fallible. She fucks Freddy pretty badly once she decides to take the gloves off. She's plenty smart and brutal, but like all good girls she doesn't want to make trouble or disappoint anyone. Don't know where that falls on the female empowerment scale, but deciding not to put your dumb, distant dad's feelings above your own has to be up there.
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Sep 18, 2015 00:16
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Yeah, I feel like we're all afraid to post what we think female power fantasy movies are like. Uh, I posted my female power fantasy movies (and I'm a real live woman!), but maybe no one took my answers seriously? I haven't seen Gone Girl, but everything I've heard about it fits the bill. I saw Under the Skin and loved it, despite it being nothing like the book it claimed to adapt, because Scarlett Johanssen's character was so unique: a female protagonist who is a literal cold-blooded sexual predator. And of course there's Mad Max: Fury Road, whose actual main character is Furiosa, a total badass who saves the princess(es) and the day. lizardman posted:
Not in Gone Girl -- Amy wins in the end. Rabbit Hill fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 00:20
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Rabbit Hill posted:Uh, I posted my female power fantasy movies (and I'm a real live woman!), but maybe no one took my answers seriously? I haven't seen Gone Girl, but everything I've heard about it fits the bill. I saw Under the Skin and loved it, despite it being nothing like the book it claimed to adapt, because Scarlett Johanssen's character was so unique: a female protagonist who is a literal cold-blooded sexual predator. I have only read the book of Gone Girl but Amy is presented as a baddie
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Sep 18, 2015 00:24
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