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sword_man.gif posted:it has the problem of being complex in the "lots of tedious ingredients" way as well Or you can buy the thing from a vendor for 1/10 the price that it would cost to craft  Heavensward has the worst goddamn crafting system ever.
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Sep 17, 2015 17:02
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Has any themepark MMO ever managed to find a niche for crafting that wasn't cosmetic? It seems like whether it's simple like WoW or complex like FF14 eventually they all just fade away into "well it can make some okay items for that alt you're levelling".
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Sep 17, 2015 17:50
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No they haven't, because it's impossible. Everything you could get from non-cosmetic crafting could be accomplished much simpler and with infinitely less hassle and annoyance with token drops for vendors that you get from actual content instead.
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Sep 17, 2015 18:30
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Pierson posted:Has any themepark MMO ever managed to find a niche for crafting that wasn't cosmetic? It seems like whether it's simple like WoW or complex like FF14 eventually they all just fade away into "well it can make some okay items for that alt you're levelling". Theoretically, furniture for housing. FFXIV's housing had lots of cool craftables, and probably will once again when they add the Heavensward equivalent to the housing patch.
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Sep 17, 2015 18:37
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too bad if they continue the trend of doubling down on the terrible systems from arr for crafting you're going to need high quality versions of the i180 crafter armor fully melded to meet the requirements to make it
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Sep 17, 2015 18:49
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I've always liked the idea of boss monsters in a dungeon not dropping +3 Dildorian Sword of Backstabbing but instead dropping something like 'mythical weapon hilt' or 'uber armor scrap'. Instead of running the boss hoping for a pre-made piece of loot and having him drop something for a class that's not there, like 'oh he dropped leather armor, well no rogues guess that's worthless. Run it again!' anyone who wins the armor scrap can then go to a player crafter and request the armor type with the stats they want regardless of their class armor or weapon type because they just go to the appropriate crafter. If the designers absolutely must have the 'run dungeons 50 times to extend your grind' mechanics, make the base weapon/armor piece crafted from that weapon hilt or whatever as soon as you get the first piece. Right off the bat you get what you want and then every one you get after that can be crafted into a power adding widget that eventually gets your item up to whatever level of stats is the goal for that particular dungeon, only you get there gradually and with exactly what you want from the start instead of playing all-or-nothing loot lottery with your item determined for you.
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Sep 17, 2015 19:00
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Once upon a time crafting in DAOC was a big deal. It was a horrible boring slog, but it was the best gear in the game and allowed you to min/max your class. They sort of hosed it all up with Trials of Atlantis. Outside of Sandbox type MMOs, I can't think of anywhere crafting was as important. The only use I get out of them is by selling the gathering materials for early easy money.
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Sep 17, 2015 20:46
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Wow, Wildstar free to play beta key AND a comeback to Archeage e-mail in the same week! I don't know which failtrain to board first.
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Sep 17, 2015 21:47
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Pierson posted:Has any themepark MMO ever managed to find a niche for crafting that wasn't cosmetic? It seems like whether it's simple like WoW or complex like FF14 eventually they all just fade away into "well it can make some okay items for that alt you're levelling". GW2 crafting is a way to get some outfits/gear AND as a way to turn money into exp to fast level characters.
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Sep 17, 2015 21:54
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Pierson posted:Has any themepark MMO ever managed to find a niche for crafting that wasn't cosmetic? It seems like whether it's simple like WoW or complex like FF14 eventually they all just fade away into "well it can make some okay items for that alt you're levelling". Actually wow finally hit upon something with the "you can only wear 3 pieces of crafted gear at a time, but that gear is as good as 99% of the content will ever give you" so it makes it easier to get a decent piece of gear in slots that are traditionally annoying, like a second weapon for fury (or both weapons, or just weapons in general for everyone). You also don't need to even have the craft to get the items, you can make a garrison building and put a follower in it to be your profession bitch, and all the materials will eventually poop out of your garrison except for felblight, which is just for the last two upgrades. They're also probably going to throw it right out because blizzard doesn't iterate on something when they stumble across a good idea, so 
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Sep 17, 2015 21:59
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Mizuti posted:Why does crafting have a failure chance in the first place? Is there some context I'm missing? *~Design~* Mayor McCheese posted:Once upon a time crafting in DAOC was a big deal. It was a horrible boring slog, but it was the best gear in the game and allowed you to min/max your class. They sort of hosed it all up with Trials of Atlantis. Crafting works when your gear can be looted by players, so your forced to have 1000 pieces of poo poo gear in a bank so you don't lose good gear but you can still actually play the game. Unless players have a need for 100 items a day, crafting is going to range from kinda sorta useful to useless. Turtle Sandbox fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Sep 17, 2015 |
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Sep 17, 2015 22:00
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Any crafting system where you have to make a hundred copper daggers that you're just going to immediately vendor or melt back down is terrible. The crafting system in Guild Wars 2 actively makes the game feels worse to me, because it's this bizarre grindy thing that has no purpose to it, because I can just sell materials on the auction house and buy what a bunch of other people made. EVE probably has the best crafting system, just because it actually has a purpose; If you want an item, you either have to make it yourself, or buy/steal it off of someone that did. It also never forces you to make X of one trash object to become capable of making what you actual want.
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Sep 17, 2015 22:19
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Vanguard Warden posted:Any crafting system where you have to make a hundred copper daggers that you're just going to immediately vendor or melt back down is terrible. The crafting system in Guild Wars 2 actively makes the game feels worse to me, because it's this bizarre grindy thing that has no purpose to it, because I can just sell materials on the auction house and buy what a bunch of other people made. EVE is not a theme park mmo so it can't be compared the same.
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Sep 17, 2015 22:28
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Back when immersion in MMOs was a thing for me (so, like, 2005) I liked crafting because it felt cool that my dude, DarkKakarot69, was able to craft a kickass sword/fishing pole/whatever of myth. I skip it nowadays, though.
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Sep 17, 2015 23:19
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Last time I really liked crafting in an MMO was in EverQuest, when I had a dark elf necromancer who was a chef and a brewer. I'd sit at the east commons tunnel and sell my rat sandwiches and bog beer, and make jokes about being being a dark elf necromancer who made and sold cookies and pies and poo poo. People bought it for the passive stat buffs, I made some money and friends, and then I stopped doing it when a troll ran up to me, turned around, squatted down, and started chasing me with his rear end and yelling how he wanted my 'dark elf cherry pie.' He did this daily. It was funny as poo poo, but it got old after awhile.
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Sep 17, 2015 23:28
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Holyshoot posted:EVE is not a theme park mmo so it can't be compared the same. Doesn't prevent people from treating Eve like a theme park. The tears when the ride's tracks disappear in front of them is the only reason to play.
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Sep 17, 2015 23:36
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Holyshoot posted:EVE is not a theme park mmo so it can't be compared the same. Yeah, I kept wanting to point out SWG, but that game was not only a sandbox-- it was also largely built around the player economy to a degree you just don't see anymore(outside of EVE). That said, the crafting was fantastic. I knew people in SWG that made crafting literally their entire gameplay. EDIT: That said, the whole reason you did high-end gameplay (like the geo cave and nightsisters and krayts and such) was to get ever-better sweet materials you could then take to your favorite crafter to get sweet gear made. So in theory it wouldn't be completely impossible to make it work in themepark, but modern players probably wouldn't like the extra step. Zizi fucked around with this message at 00:01 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 17, 2015 23:59
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Yea I think we have pretty much covered crafting will always be poo poo in a theme park ride the track type mmo.
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Sep 18, 2015 00:13
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Holyshoot posted:Yea I think we have pretty much covered crafting will always be poo poo in a theme park ride the track type mmo. The way wow is doing it right now is pretty neat, basically relegating it to a player housing feature so that you don't have to do skillup crap, so there are ways to make it okay. Nobody's gonna do them, though.
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Sep 18, 2015 00:45
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14 still has the right idea with turning crafting into a minigame, even if the implementation falls flat like if you had to get a high score in bejeweled or some poo poo to get a high quality item, and you had to play a round of bubble bobble to determine how much ore you got from a node, we'd be on track to creating World's Best MMO
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Sep 18, 2015 00:45
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Minrad posted:14 still has the right idea with turning crafting into a minigame, even if the implementation falls flat until you've done it 300 times in a row and then you're just loving done with the entire prospect of it, but still need to do it.
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Sep 18, 2015 00:57
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:until you've done it 300 times in a row and then you're just loving done with the entire prospect of it, but still need to do it.
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Sep 18, 2015 01:34
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:until you've done it 300 times in a row and then you're just loving done with the entire prospect of it, but still need to do it. Seriously gently caress HQ Food and Potions.
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Sep 18, 2015 01:43
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hobbesmaster posted:The tears when the ride's tracks disappear in front of them is the only reason to play. So there's very little reason to play Eve is what you're saying?
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Sep 18, 2015 01:46
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Minrad posted:14 still has the right idea with turning crafting into a minigame, even if the implementation falls flat Age of Wushu did the bejeweled thing. Shame about the pay to win and bad dev support.
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Sep 18, 2015 01:52
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I see the impending release of Wildstar Free to Play has everyone excited.
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Sep 18, 2015 02:07
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Comrayn posted:I see the impending release of Wildstar Free to Play has everyone excited. Who talks about Wildstar in the Wildstar thread? What kind of nonsense is this?
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Sep 18, 2015 02:54
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The best mmo crafting isn't the real crafting system but quests that have you building awsome items. Wow did this really good with that tanking sword at 60 (forgot name) and a few legendaries.
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Sep 18, 2015 03:11
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The reason Wildstar crafts have a failure chance is overcharged stats: a pattern that produces an item of a certain item level is trivially craftable if you assign an ilvl-appropriate stat distribution to it in the crafting window, but if you go over the cap, the item has a bigger chance to blow up the higher over the cap you go. You could get a great item for the item level, at a cost of going into KMMO levels of RNG trying to max it out. The failure rate cap is just Carbine taking the easy way out of addressing this by putting a hard cap on how much you can overcharge, in essence.
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Sep 18, 2015 04:25
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The Chairman posted:The reason Wildstar crafts have a failure chance is overcharged stats: a pattern that produces an item of a certain item level is trivially craftable if you assign an ilvl-appropriate stat distribution to it in the crafting window, but if you go over the cap, the item has a bigger chance to blow up the higher over the cap you go. You could get a great item for the item level, at a cost of going into KMMO levels of RNG trying to max it out. I assume crafted gear in wildstar is poo poo, or everyone has to grind out 1% success rate gear to be competitive.
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Sep 18, 2015 05:02
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Unguided posted:Age of Wushu did the bejeweled thing. Shame about the pay to win and bad dev support. Age of Wushu was such a loving weird thing. My memories of it are lots of boring carriage rides, making pubbies vomit, kidnapping, a constant feeling of confusion, and dancing to level up. I recall the AI cheating in the crafting minigames as well.
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Sep 18, 2015 05:07
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Turtle Sandbox posted:I assume crafted gear in wildstar is poo poo, or everyone has to grind out 1% success rate gear to be competitive. It was actually the best pre raid gear in the game.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:18
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Mayor McCheese posted:Age of Wushu was such a loving weird thing. My memories of it are lots of boring carriage rides, making pubbies vomit, kidnapping, a constant feeling of confusion, and dancing to level up. I recall the AI cheating in the crafting minigames as well. This plus Fight Club pretty much sums up that game for me as well. So I'm trying out GW2 f2p. I like how they level gate you from certain areas instead of just not being able to use a function like most F2P systems... ahem EQ2.
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Sep 18, 2015 13:46
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Iron Tusk posted:It was actually the best pre raid gear in the game. Pre 40-man raid gear even, the drops from the 20-man raid (that was still ridiculously difficult) were worse than the crafted weapons.
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Sep 18, 2015 16:02
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An Ounce of Gold posted:So I'm trying out GW2 f2p. I like how they level gate you from certain areas instead of just not being able to use a function like most F2P systems... ahem EQ2. The level-gating isn't even that bad (at least, looking at it from the outside). You can go everywhere in the world, aside from Lion's Arch, starting at level 10, and Lion's Arch opens up at level 35. You don't have access to party chat or LFG until level 30, but that's conveniently the exact level when you start to need it, because it's when the first dungeon opens up. How are you finding the chat and trading restrictions? I'm curious how noticeable they are playing normally.
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Sep 18, 2015 16:19
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The Moon Monster posted:So there's very little reason to play Eve is what you're saying? There are two reasons to play EVE: A: You're addicted to it and can't stop B: Madness Since there are a lot of addicts and lunatics around in the world, EVE is the undead of the MMORPGs. It can't die.
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Sep 18, 2015 16:19
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God knows CCP is trying valiantly to kill it to no avail.
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Sep 18, 2015 16:28
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Harrow posted:The level-gating isn't even that bad (at least, looking at it from the outside). You can go everywhere in the world, aside from Lion's Arch, starting at level 10, and Lion's Arch opens up at level 35. You don't have access to party chat or LFG until level 30, but that's conveniently the exact level when you start to need it, because it's when the first dungeon opens up. overall I feel the restritions exist in F2P gw2 is just enough to counter goldfarmers and people who want to ruin the other team wvw or the market. it reasonable compare to SWOTR where you have to pay extra to get more hotbars and that game is bloated with skills.
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Sep 18, 2015 17:34
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Martout posted:Pre 40-man raid gear even, the drops from the 20-man raid (that was still ridiculously difficult) were worse than the crafted weapons. And the power core you needed to make the best crafted items was either a ludicrously rare drop, or a limited quantity rare spawn on a certain vendor, which was always botted. (Said bots never got banned of course).
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Sep 18, 2015 17:42
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Libluini posted:There are two reasons to play EVE: I'm quietly impressed that the goon-run EVE group has managed to stay together, seeing that almost every other goon project flies apart faster than you could say 'Zybourne Clock'
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