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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:The social systems of Europe are already strained and being dialed back, to say that the increased demand on them and the increased competition for low wage jobs will not hurt the poor in Europe is simply sticking your head in the sand because the facts aren't convenient for you. It's almost like that you could address another problem in the process of addressing the refugee crisis!
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Sep 18, 2015 21:56
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They're being strained because we have centre and centre-right governments all over Europe. The left and centre-left have been dead in the water since the 80s. Social safety nets are the first thing to be cut as they're an easy source of savings to centre-left governments, let alone centrist or centre-right or right-wing ones. The origin of the need for money-saving is the sub-prime mortgage crisis in America, not helped by three decades of poor regulation. Even assuming one is a die-hard anti-regulation capitalist the current financial system is currently being managed extremely poorly.
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Sep 18, 2015 21:57
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VitalSigns posted:Are you illiterate, I didn't say it's not a problem or that it doesn't take effort, I said it won't bankrupt Europe or America or even really affect our standard of living. You're placing an entirely imaginary and unrealistically small cap on the amount of people who will come. You're ignoring opportunity cost - you might not have seen your standard of living fall in the Iraq war, but think what three trillion dollars spent on something useful might have done for US citizens. Also, thankfully, the Euro is structured to ensure that most of Europe won't be spending money like that any time soon.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:00
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OwlFancier posted:As opposed to private rented housing which is synonymous with..? ... "home"? Just for fun, an image search to show you where I'm coming from. Italy doesn't have a great track record with social housing and I don't see it getting better OwlFancier posted:The main issues with them are that they tend to not be properly serviced or maintained, and they also are often poor quality and nobody spends money on them if they start going kind of downhill. I think the worst issue is the isolation from poor planning, intentional or not. When I think "social housing" I picture a "dorm district": no shops, no restaurants, no entertainment, little public transportation. That, I don't think is a matter of malice or incompetence, it's just how housing used to be designed at the time, even by the best architects. History proved their theories wrong, property values fell through the floor and people suffered. No amount of maintenance will fix those Honj Steak posted:It works pretty great if the government is actually committed to it, look at the Vienna social housing system. I will
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Sep 18, 2015 22:02
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Tesseraction posted:They're being strained because we have centre and centre-right governments all over Europe. The left and centre-left have been dead in the water since the 80s. Social safety nets are the first thing to be cut as they're an easy source of savings to centre-left governments, let alone centrist or centre-right or right-wing ones. Exactly, and given these circumstances it is irresponsible to invite the avoidable social and financial costs of poor, uneducated migrants.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:02
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How many dead people should your comfort cost?
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Sep 18, 2015 22:05
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Ian Winthorpe III posted:Exactly, and given these circumstances it is irresponsible to invite the avoidable social and financial costs of poor, uneducated migrants. This meme again? The vast majority of the Syrian diaspora coming to Europe are well-educated, middle-class refugees.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:06
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Ian Winthorpe III posted:Exactly, and given these circumstances it is irresponsible to invite the avoidable social and financial costs of poor, uneducated migrants. Rather than reforming a broken system to the benefit of everyone, let's instead make sure it harms the most possible people by its failures.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:06
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TomViolence posted:Rather than reforming a broken system to the benefit of everyone, let's instead make sure it harms the most possible people by its failures. OK well when you've sorted out utopia we can start on fixing the rest of the world.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:12
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my dad posted:How many dead people should your comfort cost? This thread gets much easier to parse once you just start adding "and therefore hundreds of thousands should die" to every argument for why the refugees should be turned back.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:13
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Ian Winthorpe III posted:OK well when you've sorted out utopia we can start on fixing the rest of the world. This appeal to the status quo is hardly useful and unrealistic given that pushing towards a better world is not an ignoble goal in itself, whether or not success is necessarily coming.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:14
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hackbunny posted:... "home"? That's what I mean by poorly serviced, you need services for housing to work, jobs, shops, transport. We have all of those to a lot of council estates here, they aren't the nicest place in the world to live because we still have a lot of underprovision of needed services to people without a lot of money, but I'd much rather live there than in some lovely private london flat for half my wages every month. This is what I think of when I think of private rental properties: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3080503/The-outrageous-London-rental-listings-revealed.html
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Sep 18, 2015 22:15
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Rincewind posted:This thread gets much easier to parse once you just start adding "and therefore hundreds of thousands should die" to every argument for why the refugees should be turned back. Sadly those same people probably add "and therefore hundreds of thousands of the white race should die" to every argument made for accepting the refugees.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:15
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Ian Winthorpe III posted:OK well when you've sorted out utopia we can start on fixing the rest of the world. To many people in the third world we probably do resemble something of a utopia. A perfect society may be ultimately unattainable, and to decide that we must first achieve this unachievable perfection before we tend to the needs of the worse off is a complete copout. Think of it as triage; we marshal our resources towards first helping those most in need, then the next in line and so on, until everyone is catered for, and at the end of it... hey presto, our near-perfect Any culture or society that can't find the will or compassion to help the desperate isn't worth preserving in the first place.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:27
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TomViolence posted:To many people in the third world we probably do resemble something of a utopia. A perfect society may be ultimately unattainable, and to decide that we must first achieve this unachievable perfection before we tend to the needs of the worse off is a complete copout. Think of it as triage; we marshal our resources towards first helping those most in need, then the next in line and so on, until everyone is catered for, and at the end of it... hey presto, our near-perfect What 'end of the line'? Africa will have 4 billion people by 2020, the increase in large part due to the gifts of western medicine and aid.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:33
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Ian Winthorpe III posted:What 'end of the line'? Africa will have 4 billion people by 2020, the increase in large part due to the gifts of western medicine and aid. Err... What?
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Sep 18, 2015 22:37
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That's a real good point you've got there. We should probably rescind those "gifts" and recommence our old, tested policy of depopulating Africa through genocide, slavery, pestilence and starvation.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:38
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Africa's a big place, with better land development it could probably support a lot of people.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:38
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Ian Winthorpe III posted:What 'end of the line'? Africa will have 4 billion people by 2020, the increase in large part due to the gifts of western medicine and aid. Amazing, how Africa manages to grow at a 32% annual rate of population increase, just under thirty times world average.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:39
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Ian Winthorpe III posted:What 'end of the line'? Africa will have 4 billion people by 2020, the increase in large part due to the gifts of western medicine and aid. I... wh... 
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Sep 18, 2015 22:40
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If they manage that in the next five years I will be seriously, legitimately impressed.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:41
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Ian Winthorpe III posted:What 'end of the line'? Africa will have 4 billion people by 2020, the increase in large part due to the gifts of western medicine and aid. can't believe the population of africa is going to quadruple in just five years
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Sep 18, 2015 22:43
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Ian Winthorpe III posted:What 'end of the line'? Africa will have 4 billion people by 2020, the increase in large part due to the gifts of western medicine and aid. You mean by 2100? Right?
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Sep 18, 2015 22:43
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Africa only has a billion people in it? Surely it's higher than that?
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Sep 18, 2015 22:43
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Ian Winthorpe III posted:What 'end of the line'? Africa will have 4 billion people by 2020, the increase in large part due to the gifts of western medicine and aid. I know some people think Africans are a plague, I didn't think people thought they reproduced by mytosis though.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:44
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4 billion people in 2020 would mean 30% native population increase every year until then. Is that even biologically possible?
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Sep 18, 2015 22:45
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Well, obviously it's because Africans are like dogs and have litters of seven or eight at a time, right? 
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Sep 18, 2015 22:46
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Seriously though Africa accounts for roughly 20% of the earth's landmass how does it only have a billion people living on it? Though I guess that's still more densely populated than North America.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:47
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OwlFancier posted:Africa only has a billion people in it? They're still in the high birth-high death rate phase of the cycle, plus there's lots of undeveloped or otherwise useless land for human activity on the continent. Sub-Saharan Africa has a population of ~800 million (including Madagascar), while the continent as a whole has a population of 1.1 billion.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:48
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OwlFancier posted:Seriously though Africa accounts for roughly 20% of the earth's landmass how does it only have a billion people living on it? Famine, war and europeans. EDIT: Also, I can't wait for Ian Winthorpe III, if that even is his real name, to get back to us and explain this figure. 
TomViolence fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 22:48
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OwlFancier posted:
Also an interesting fact - Asia has a higher population density than Europe (defined at the border of the Urals).
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Sep 18, 2015 22:49
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TomViolence posted:Well, obviously it's because Africans are like dogs and have litters of seven or eight at a time, right? Octomom made a humanitarian visit to Africa and dosed every woman of childbearing age with her fertility drugs
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Sep 18, 2015 22:50
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I mean I get why really but it's still incredibly surprising and drives home just how underdeveloped the place is. Europe has 750 million people or something on 6% of the earth's landmass.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:50
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Hey, thanks for pointing me to Vienna social housing, I found a comparative study of European social housing programs too
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Sep 18, 2015 22:51
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Most of Africa has population densities similar to the US and Canada. Even the densest populations, in Uganda, Nigeria, and Benin, are only comparable to Poland and France.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:53
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OwlFancier posted:I mean I get why really but it's still incredibly surprising and drives home just how underdeveloped the place is. Europe has 750 million people or something on 6% of the earth's landmass. I think it's more just that Europe and Asia are super dense? According to Wikipedia the United States has a population density of 35/km^2 (North America as a whole has 22.9/km^2; thanks Canada), while the African continent has 36.4/km^2. Also remember that like a quarter of Africa's landmass is the Sahara desert.
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Sep 18, 2015 22:56
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What is it about the populations in these areas that makes them so dense? And are they dense enough to believe that Africa will quadruple its population over the next five years?
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Sep 18, 2015 22:58
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TomViolence posted:What is it about the populations in these areas that makes them so dense? And are they dense enough to believe that Africa will quadruple its population over the next five years? In Asia, it's because they've had the most historically fertile land in the world. Europe is more because they jumped on the Industrialization train early and that tends to drive up populations pretty fast.
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Sep 18, 2015 23:00
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Well yeah you can look at it that way too. It's possible European/Asian densities would not be supportable in the long term, but still, that's a lot of empty space. I still think the takeaway is that population growth in Africa is only a problem because of a lack of development, due to a lack of money, because we keep nicking it all.
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Sep 18, 2015 23:01
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It sounds like this "Africa" here has a lot of free space...
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Sep 18, 2015 23:07
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