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MikeJF posted:The bitching about that was because the doctor's long relationship with the Space Church and Mother Superior was a key part of the payoff and explanation of the Doctor's arc up to there. Payoffs shouldn't involve elements out of nowhere. This is a fairly basic fact of narrative. Another example is the Moffat trio, who made people "confused" because it felt like they missed an episode introducing them. Attitude Indicator posted:i don't like the lack of originality. like I said, every single element in this story is old and used. hey it's davros. hey it's the master. hey it's karn. it's skaro. it's the shadow proclamatinon. it's unit. it's atlantis. it's tom baker. mccoy. old daleks. human daleks. the doctor's going to die again. The Ood in the background of the cantina scene is much more "old and used" than a one liner about Atlantis. computer parts fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Sep 20, 2015 |
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Sep 20, 2015 15:20
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computer parts posted:The Ood in the background of the cantina scene is much more "old and used" than a one liner about Atlantis. A one liner about Atlantis that makes sense if you know that The Underwater Menace, The Daemons and The Time Monster have three separate descriptions of how Atlantis was destroyed, but doesn't make sense if you've seen them because The Daemons only mentions it in passing rather than actually going there.
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Sep 20, 2015 15:26
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computer parts posted:Another example is the Moffat trio, who made people "confused" because it felt like they missed an episode introducing them. This bit is because of the habit of making stupid references to old stuff without explanation, not an ironic counterpoint to it as you seem to believe.
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Sep 20, 2015 15:29
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computer parts posted:Another example is the Moffat trio, who made people "confused" because it felt like they missed an episode introducing them. which people? i'm not confused by the references, that's not the point. computer parts posted:The Ood in the background of the cantina scene is much more "old and used" than a one liner about Atlantis. yes, i forgot about him. thanks for helping me prove my point. but at least he serves a vague purpose by helping populate an area. E: VVVVVVV and here we are, discussing plot elements and structure. how embarrasing. Attitude Indicator fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Sep 20, 2015 |
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Sep 20, 2015 15:38
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Meanwhile, on Outpost Gallifrey there's a big flame thread about how there can be black Kaleds
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Sep 20, 2015 15:54
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Ed Balls
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Sep 20, 2015 15:56
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Cleretic posted:That has to be the prop from An Adventure in Space and Time, right? That was great to see. Can I ask for a quick tally on what sorts of Daleks were actually in that room? I could recognize the 60s Dalek, the black Dalek from the Cult of Skaro, and the New Who Standard Daleks, but I know there's more. Still catching up with the thread, but just wanted to chime in that I think I saw one of the Genesis Daleks hanging out in the rafters, which would be appropriate considering what this two parter is reacting to.
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Sep 20, 2015 16:02
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Meanwhile, on Outpost Gallifrey there's a big flame thread about how there can be black Kaleds hahahaahhaha nerds are loving worthless garbage
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Sep 20, 2015 16:04
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MikeJF posted:There was the a bunch of Time War era nuWho brass Daleks, the shiny black Dalek Sec nuWho Dalek, a few classic 60s blueballs Daleks, a blueballs Dalek with a black dome (Emperor's Guard, I think), a grey Renegade Dalek, an Imperial heavy weapons Dalek, and the Dalek Supreme from Journey's End in the middle. Every single one of them had a glowing blue eye, though, even the classics. I think that was all of them. But none of the "Power Ranger" Daleks is there. Those really were a huge mistake, weren't they? Anyway, yes the episode was a mess. It felt like they were afraid the budget would be cut if they didn't use all their money, so they threw in crazy stuff until they'd spent it all. It could've been done quicker and made more sense. The Doctor was hiding so Missy stopped the planes but he wasn't really hiding but they still led the snake guy to him and also the Daleks knew where he was all along. The Doctor playing guitar should've been great but I just wanted something to actually happen. And Missy kills two people but no one seems to care and Clara seems to like her more afterward. How did the Doctor end up with young Davros again at the end? I'm sure it'll be explained but it was pretty awkward.
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Sep 20, 2015 16:12
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Astroman posted:Was there a good reason why we couldn't see the Master's TARDIS? You never know, maybe we did!
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Sep 20, 2015 16:20
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Action Jacktion posted:How did the Doctor end up with young Davros again at the end? I'm sure it'll be explained but it was pretty awkward. The Doctor will probably find a way to go back in time, and try to kill (but actually save) Davros. It seemed like a really hamfisted way to squeeze in a more optimistic cliff hanger after killing off Clara. As far as storytelling goes, that scene should not have been there, though. It just completely comes out of nowhere both tonally and logically.
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Sep 20, 2015 16:20
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Meanwhile, on Outpost Gallifrey there's a big flame thread about how there can be black Kaleds Holy poo poo really? I was watching this with friends and made a joke about how this couldn't be Skaro because there was a black person there. That was a joke about the all white casts of Skaro we've seen in Classic Who, not even a joke about ironic racisim. THANK YOU WHO NERDS FOR TURNING MY JOKE INTO A REALITY. Thank you so loving much. Also I have a question. When Davros was a child, that was a long rear end time ago compared to the 'present' of Genesis of the Daleks. Dude was really old even then, just functionally immortal because of his chair. I'll get to that in a moment. So why, when he was a child, were some soldiers reduced ALREADY to bows and arrows? It's a neat thing that clues you in instantly that this is Skaro, but it doesn't make any sense given how the Doctor described the way the war went, slowly degrading over time technologically. It's a minor thing, but given it's one of the first things we see in the episode, it does bug me. I also want to know what the gently caress Davros is doing with a snake collective, why the Daleks allow it to live on Skaro, what those dumb hand eye things were, and why there wasn't a single mutant clam anywhere. Most of those I hope get brought up in the next episode, but this episode just.... It was just a lot of noise. There wasn't a lot of substance. Also I do not under any circumstances buy that the Doctor would ever choose to go back and kill a child, even if it's to save the life of his friend. And the Master. Hell if the Doctor is going to be SO motivated to try and go back and change things so dramatically, how about this before we get to the child murder. Grab Davros and take him to some backwoods orphanage on Earth in the 1920s where he can do no harm. As a child obviously. Or just raise the little bugger yourself and leave him as a mostly well adjusted young man in Modern Day Earth. Basically anything that isn't knee jerk bullshit.
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Sep 20, 2015 16:24
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Burkion posted:I also want to know what the gently caress Davros is doing with a snake collective, why the Daleks allow it to live on Skaro, what those dumb hand eye things were, and why there wasn't a single mutant clam anywhere. Davros doesn't command the Daleks and hasn't for ages. They probably don't even know he's there (or don't care, at least). The hands were clearly mentioned to be Hand Mines. Guess they grab you and pull you underground to suffocate  .As for how they get from bows and arrows to bunkers and Daleks, there's probably lulls in the war spent re-inventing bombs and guns every so often rather than a steady decline in tech.
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Sep 20, 2015 16:28
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Why does the Doctor, when experiencing extreme emotion, not calmly do a coldly logical and intelligent thing, like most people do in the real world?
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Sep 20, 2015 16:33
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2house2fly posted:Why does the Doctor, when experiencing extreme emotion, not calmly do a coldly logical and intelligent thing, like most people do in the real world? Yep that's what I asked. You're not twisting the meaning of my words at all. Certainly the main point wasn't 'The Doctor Would Never Kill A Child'
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Sep 20, 2015 16:34
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Maybe the Hand Mines were put there by the Time Lords?
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Sep 20, 2015 16:38
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The episode was great, Davros is great.
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Sep 20, 2015 16:42
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Burkion posted:Yep that's what I asked. You're not twisting the meaning of my words at all. It kind of looks like he would, given the end of this last episode. Anyway he's killed children before.
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Sep 20, 2015 16:48
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It was good buuut... Can we stop with the Doctor/Master as Batman/Joker thing. It barely works with the latter and isn't really what the former is based on.
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Sep 20, 2015 16:51
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Instead he should put young Davros into a time-locked phantom zone. Episode will be redeemed if someone manages to get their leg caught in a giant styrofoam clam
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Sep 20, 2015 16:52
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2house2fly posted:It kind of looks like he would, given the end of this last episode. Anyway he's killed children before. I can't think of any time he's killed an innocent child before. That wasn't part of an inherently evil spider species. That was treated like a bad thing. Oh except the Time War where the deaths of all those children plagued him for literally centuries and was one of the motivations to save Galifrey above all else. And it looks like he would try to, but I can't imagine that is genuine. Moffat hasn't lost the script on the kind of character the Doctor is to that extent and I can't believe they won't throw a twist into the next part. Which is why I am not complaining about the scene itself, which you seem to believe I am. I'm complaining about the IDEA that the Doctor would ever be driven to kill a child because it might bring back a friend of his is ludicrous. That they expect us to believe for one moment that the Doctor would insults our intelligence.
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Sep 20, 2015 16:56
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The Doctor only kills evil children, he definitely wouldn't kill the creator of the Daleks!
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Sep 20, 2015 17:02
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And More posted:The Doctor will probably find a way to go back in time, and try to kill (but actually save) Davros. It seemed like a really hamfisted way to squeeze in a more optimistic cliff hanger after killing off Clara. As far as storytelling goes, that scene should not have been there, though. It just completely comes out of nowhere both tonally and logically. I actually think exactly the opposite. Clara being "killed" isn't much of a cliffhanger at all because we all know for an absolute fact that Clara/the TARDIS can't be actually dead and will definitely come back. Ending on the Doctor facing down Davros as a child is a much bigger cliffhanger because although we can be fairly sure he's not going to actually kill him it's much less certain than Clara staying dead.
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Sep 20, 2015 17:02
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2house2fly posted:The Doctor only kills evil children, he definitely wouldn't kill the creator of the Daleks! You're not even trying are you? I mean I'm not particularly trying too hard myself but Jesus man. You're really not into this today. Is work going OK? Everything alright man? We're here for you you don't have to front
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Sep 20, 2015 17:03
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Burkion posted:I'm complaining about the IDEA that the Doctor would ever be driven to kill a child because it might bring back a friend of his is ludicrous. That they expect us to believe for one moment that the Doctor would insults our intelligence. It's Davros though. It's not just about it just being a kid, it's that it's the Hitler paradox. Leaving the kid to die was the best he bring himself to do and it clearly didn't work, so now it's gotta be seen to personally. edit: Organza Quiz posted:I actually think exactly the opposite. Clara being "killed" isn't much of a cliffhanger at all because we all know for an absolute fact that Clara/the TARDIS can't be actually dead and will definitely come back. Ending on the Doctor facing down Davros as a child is a much bigger cliffhanger because although we can be fairly sure he's not going to actually kill him it's much less certain than Clara staying dead. Agreed. It's a kid, he'd never kill a kid, but after the Time War, all those trillions upon trillions dead because of what that kid will one day create, well...
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Sep 20, 2015 17:04
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He's obviously not going to kill a child. I doubt the cliffhanger was trying to trick us into thinking that, more like getting us to wonder what the gently caress he IS going to do. I liked this episode because I'm enough of a DW convert to just sit back and enjoy the ride when the show is being a screaming mess. That said, still hoping the next episode will be a little more coherent. It will not be an all-time classic but I think this worked as a season opener to grab attention and make the audience wonder where in time and space they're going with all this.
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Sep 20, 2015 17:06
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Organza Quiz posted:I actually think exactly the opposite. Clara being "killed" isn't much of a cliffhanger at all because we all know for an absolute fact that Clara/the TARDIS can't be actually dead and will definitely come back. Ending on the Doctor facing down Davros as a child is a much bigger cliffhanger because although we can be fairly sure he's not going to actually kill him it's much less certain than Clara staying dead. The point of cliffhangers isn't necessarily to go "Oh no! Will they make it out this time?" because of course Batman escapes the Joker's stupid giant marble run or whatever it is this week, it's how they make it out.
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Sep 20, 2015 17:06
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Neddy Seagoon posted:It's Davros though. It's not just about it just being a kid, it's that it's the Hitler paradox. Which they hit firmly on the nose by quoting the Doctor referring to it in Genesis.
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Sep 20, 2015 17:08
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Which they hit firmly on the nose by quoting the Doctor referring to it in Genesis. Where the Doctor was quite firmly against it, to boot. Kinda works against you when the old serial you're directly quoting (and showing footage of) shows how the Doctor would act. Something something don't reference better material in your work.
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Sep 20, 2015 17:14
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Modern nerd poo poo in general seems to be obsessed with "cool moments". Same as the Avengers (especially the most recent one) and it just makes it unwatchable for me. It's much easier to share that kind of thing on Tumblr.  (Share? Reblog? Retumble? Whatever you do on Tumblr, I don't know.) Rochallor posted:It is a bit weird that Davros seems to have the classic series on DVD, though. He got the original tapes from Robert Mugabe at the last Annual Corrupt Venal Dictators Swap Meet. Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Sep 20, 2015 |
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Sep 20, 2015 17:18
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Organza Quiz posted:I actually think exactly the opposite. Clara being "killed" isn't much of a cliffhanger at all because we all know for an absolute fact that Clara/the TARDIS can't be actually dead and will definitely come back. Ending on the Doctor facing down Davros as a child is a much bigger cliffhanger because although we can be fairly sure he's not going to actually kill him it's much less certain than Clara staying dead. Yeah, I guess asking what he will do is actually very interesting. The cliffhanger should probably not have been the Doctor going "Exterminate!" if they wanted me to read it that way. I mean, don't get me wrong, I completely agree that this will be crucial to the next episode. The cliffhanger itself doesn't really direct me towards pondering that question, though. misadventurous posted:He's obviously not going to kill a child. I doubt the cliffhanger was trying to trick us into thinking that, more like getting us to wonder what the gently caress he IS going to do. They're obviously just going to repeat the finale of A Christmas Carol.  edit: Changed a thing because it was pointless. And More fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Sep 20, 2015 |
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Sep 20, 2015 17:22
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At least two parters will make the pacing better in the... hmmm alright In the continuum of "Moffat throws a bunch of ridiculous poo poo at the screen" blockbusters I'd say this one was above average. Kind of an bold choice to kick off a season with though.
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Sep 20, 2015 17:30
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Burkion posted:Where the Doctor was quite firmly against it, to boot. That was kinda the point though, Davros (being Davros) is trying to gently caress with the Doctor's head and force him to admit/act in a way that in his past he rejected or took the moral high ground over ("Would you do it, Davros? Would you do it?" being the Doctor condemning Davros for his "At any cost" mentality). The 12th Doctor abandoning young Davros to die when he realized who he was shows a level of hypocrisy that old Davros wants to exploit/rub the Doctor's nose in. "How dare you make those high-handed speeches to me about morality and look down your nose at me when given the right situation you'd "fail" the same hypothetical test you gave me - admit I was right, admit you're no better than me, before I die* give me the one last victory and let it haunt you forever. In short, gently caress you, Doctor." The cliffhanger plays on that idea, and of course not a single person watching actually expects the Doctor to really kill Davros (he'll probably shoot the hand mines to clear a path for him), it's just there for the drama of the moment. Most cliffhangers involves the Doctor or a companion seconds away from death and nobody really thinks they're actually going to be killed, the idea has been and probably always will be just to raise interest in HOW they get out of the seemingly hopeless situation they're in and it's the same thing here. * I highly doubt he's dying, and even if he is I fully expect him to figure a way out of it/have some kind of scheme set up to continue to live his horrible life.
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Sep 20, 2015 17:37
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So yeah, I liked it. Missy was fun, as always, and the fact that Clara was able to dismiss the two murders committed right in front of her and team up with Missy is either crappy writing or an indication that Clara will do anything to help the Doctor. Or both. While I did appreciate the bit with Missy making the analogy of Clara as the pet in the Doctor-Missy relationship, what the heck is the point of bringing all those UNIT guys if they aren't going to keep civilians away from the crazy alien who vaporizes people? It failed the Immediate Re-Watch Test. I didn't feel particularly compelled to watch it again the way I had "The Eleventh Hour" or even "The Impossible Astronaut". It feels less than the sum of its parts. The are individual scenes and performances I quite enjoyed, but taken as a whole it seemed not to tell much of a coherent story.
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Sep 20, 2015 17:48
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Jerusalem posted:That was kinda the point though, Davros (being Davros) is trying to gently caress with the Doctor's head and force him to admit/act in a way that in his past he rejected or took the moral high ground over ("Would you do it, Davros? Would you do it?" being the Doctor condemning Davros for his "At any cost" mentality). The 12th Doctor abandoning young Davros to die when he realized who he was shows a level of hypocrisy that old Davros wants to exploit/rub the Doctor's nose in. "How dare you make those high-handed speeches to me about morality and look down your nose at me when given the right situation you'd "fail" the same hypothetical test you gave me - admit I was right, admit you're no better than me, before I die* give me the one last victory and let it haunt you forever. In short, gently caress you, Doctor." Just going to quote this in its entirety because it's dead on. I liked the episode. I liked Genesis of the Daleks. I'm interested in seeing how this plays out.
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Sep 20, 2015 17:54
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:I don't think even Rick would be self obsessed enough to make his entrance by riding in on a tank playing his own opening theme song on an electric guitar. I don't see why not. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFFi9PWKDjg
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Sep 20, 2015 17:57
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I'm kind of in the same boat with this one. Lots of good moments, not stitched together terribly well. Second part might make me like it more, but at this point I can only see it going in one of two directions: Doctor shoots Davros as child, Davros as adult reveals that child was a fake, and that this was all a setup to prove to the Doctor that he is also a monster. Doctor shoots the hand mine things, and more things happen in the narrative between the two characters to demonstrate how the Doctor set him on his current path. Neither address the extermination of his companion, Missy, or the Tardis, but we have a planet that was disguised as a space station, so we're already operating from the point where we know that nothing a character sees can be trusted. I hope that isn't the case, and that they go with a more thoughtful solution than pulling back the curtain, but I've seen it too often to not be expecting it. Here's hoping for the unexpected.
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Sep 20, 2015 18:02
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Yeah, whoever did the sound mix for that episode needs to be shot. I had to bump my center channel output by +12db to have a prayer of understanding anything any character said. I felt it just added to the confusion of the episode since half the quick dialog was being missed. Yeah, and I do think BBC A hosed with the framerate or something. The visual presentation was just ugly. It didn't look even close to HD, compression artifacts were everywhere, and the frame rate jumped around. It may be worth it for me to say forget BBC-A this year and just buy the episode directly off of Google Play or Vudu.
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Sep 20, 2015 18:02
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EricFate posted:Neither address the extermination of his companion, Missy, or the Tardis, but we have a planet that was disguised as a space station, so we're already operating from the point where we know that nothing a character sees can be trusted. I hope that isn't the case, and that they go with a more thoughtful solution than pulling back the curtain, but I've seen it too often to not be expecting it. Here's hoping for the unexpected. I just took that as Missy knowing exactly what was going to happen and goading them into it on her terms so she was ready to fire off the Vortex Manipulator at just the right time.
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Sep 20, 2015 18:07
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Pesky Splinter posted:There's a lot of hurried jumping to different locations, plot points which peter out almost instantly, and break-neck tonal shifts. And not really enough time for everything to sink in. It'll be easier to guage when the second part comes out, but yeah, there's a lot of ideas in this episode, but only a little seems to be relevant to the story they're trying to tell at the moment. I wonder if that was deliberate - since they know that this will be shown in 2 parts over a week's time (plus the 9 month drought), perhaps they overstuffed this episode to have fans something to chew over these next 7 days.
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