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Turtlicious posted:Yeah, so since we're all using the Character Builder, I went ahead and clicked that little button for everyone that says "Use Inherent Bonuses." When I give them magic items, should I remove the AC & Damage modifiers but keep the nifty stuff, or is it ok to RARELY give them magic items as is?
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Sep 21, 2015 03:41
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Speaking of 4th edition questions - monsters got a rebalancing in MM3 - was there an accompanying update to trap / hazard math?
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Sep 21, 2015 03:51
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Super Waffle posted:Trying to run a strictly books and paper game, all my players are 100% new to TT games and I want to ease them into things. I have MM3 but the Vault had a lot of the more standard monsters with the MM3 rebalance yo this is dumb because 4e's electronic resources (the character builder and compendium) were designed specifically to make it way easier to pick up, since you don't have to go shuffling through 3-4 books to get all of your options and it guides you through the whole process. Like, have them put together characters using the builder and then look at class guides and make sure they haven't picked anything worse than a black option and they're good to go.
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Sep 21, 2015 03:56
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Raenir K. Artemi posted:yo this is dumb because 4e's electronic resources (the character builder and compendium) were designed specifically to make it way easier to pick up, since you don't have to go shuffling through 3-4 books to get all of your options and it guides you through the whole process. Thats just it though, by the end there were so many books and countless feats I would rather have them stick to the Player Handbook and introduce extra options as we go along by way of the Power books
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Sep 21, 2015 03:58
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Raenir K. Artemi posted:yo this is dumb because 4e's electronic resources (the character builder and compendium) were designed specifically to make it way easier to pick up, since you don't have to go shuffling through 3-4 books to get all of your options and it guides you through the whole process. It should be said though, that there's something to using the builder to make a character, and then printing it off and using the paper for a session. Paper doesn't distract like a laptop. E: also, if you want to limit choices, still make them use the builder, but go into the management settings and disable every source you're not interested in having them use right off the bat.
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Sep 21, 2015 03:58
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gradenko_2000 posted:No, that won't work well. Create enemies that have iconic abilities from the various character classes but you still have to assemble them as monsters. Oof, that sounds like a ton of work ontop of what I've already done, (I like generators that make this easy,) what would the main issue of having a seperate group of PC's be?
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Sep 21, 2015 04:00
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The to-hit, defense and damage numbers might not come out right, primarily.
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Sep 21, 2015 04:03
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pc damage goes up way faster than monster damage (while health scales way slower) so fighting PC characters means that you're suddenly into rocket tag mode, and also an enemy built using the pc rules has no reason to not just drop all of their dailies onto the fight which means the players are at a severe disadvantage (they want to conserve dailies in case there are more fights) It's also way faster to create a monster of an appropriate level and give it two or three extra abilities that approximate a character class than creating a PC of the same level
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Sep 21, 2015 04:04
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Turtlicious posted:Oof, that sounds like a ton of work ontop of what I've already done, (I like generators that make this easy,) what would the main issue of having a seperate group of PC's be? Encounters aren't balanced for player vs. player combat, so you'll spend nine weeks resolving a combat. Pick a monster, any monster. We'll take the Adderbrook Dark Drake (lvl 7 skirmisher). Poof, now it's the enemy rogue. Its bite attack is now a shortsword, and it's venomous strike is now a poisoned dagger.
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Sep 21, 2015 04:05
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Alright, fair enough. I had already created the party, so now I'm remaking it with the Monster Builder. Mostly I had the idea before I asked. Frog the Bullywug R0B0 the Warforged Magus the Tiefling Lead by Chrono the Fighter
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Sep 21, 2015 04:17
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Pfox posted:Encounters aren't balanced for player vs. player combat, so you'll spend nine weeks resolving a combat. More likely you'll spend 15 minutes resolving the combat and the outcome is going to be determined primarily by the initiative order.
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Sep 21, 2015 04:18
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Presumably the box sets are expensive because you get the counters and maps and so on. I do kinda regret not going for the DM kit. (Though I'll likely have to run a game online anyway. Once I figure out how that works.)
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Sep 21, 2015 04:20
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Khizan posted:More likely you'll spend 15 minutes resolving the combat and the outcome is going to be determined primarily by the initiative order. I defer to the experts
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Sep 21, 2015 04:26
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Pfox posted:Encounters aren't balanced for player vs. player combat, so you'll spend nine weeks resolving a combat. this right here. one of the biggest, most boring things about 3.X was that combat became an unfun slog as the players progressed in level, because every NPC/monster was built using similar math to what PCs used, and the end result was monsters with class levels that had spell lists for both divine and arcane casting, as well as spell-like abilities, supernatural qualities, their own host of magical equipment, etc etc etc the whole point of 4E is that you don't have to deal with that poo poo anymore. reskinning is so simple and easy that there's literally no reason not to do it. just pick a level appropriate monster and file the numbers off the specifics so that they become an enemy adventuring party. thanks to monster roles (soldier/brute/lurker/skirmisher etc) you can feasibly provide an opposing team of enemy NPCs just by looking at the appendix at the back of the MM and picking a level appropriate monster from each of the monster roles.
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Sep 21, 2015 20:36
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homeless poster posted:this right here. one of the biggest, most boring things about 3.X was that combat became an unfun slog as the players progressed in level, because every NPC/monster was built using similar math to what PCs used, and the end result was monsters with class levels that had spell lists for both divine and arcane casting, as well as spell-like abilities, supernatural qualities, their own host of magical equipment, etc etc etc Welcome to the wonderful world of never having to cross-reference 30 pages of spells in six different books for the enemy mage.
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Sep 21, 2015 21:35
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Khizan posted:More likely you'll spend 15 minutes resolving the combat and the outcome is going to be determined primarily by the initiative order. This is what I would have said. A fight literally full of creatures than can Action Point and Daily can be suuuuuper short, especially if one side generally wins initiative. Like, literally, look at the damage each character at a given level can do with a daily, and then look at the HP of that same character. And then remember that if they have two dailies, they can use both when they Action Point. Some PC classes could KO clones of themselves in a single round, and two PCs (depending on class and power choices) could outright kill another PC in one round.
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Sep 21, 2015 21:53
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CrTurtlicious posted:Alright, fair enough. Crono is clearly a swordmage.  
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Sep 21, 2015 21:57
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homullus posted:This is what I would have said. A fight literally full of creatures than can Action Point and Daily can be suuuuuper short, especially if one side generally wins initiative. Like, literally, look at the damage each character at a given level can do with a daily, and then look at the HP of that same character. And then remember that if they have two dailies, they can use both when they Action Point. Some PC classes could KO clones of themselves in a single round, and two PCs (depending on class and power choices) could outright kill another PC in one round. And that's just damage. If a controller gets a shot at them before they can spread out...
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Sep 21, 2015 22:28
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So more questions! How many encounters should I create? I'm using 4eTurnTracker, and doing the encounters up ahead of time (I'll update the ones I don't use for the new levels.) Also, how do you guys like CampaignMaster / 4eTurnTracker / DM Minion, and which one is your favorite for uploading / using custom monsters? Ontop of that, how long should an encounter take? If it's properly statted and everything I mean. How many encounters should I plan for a 4 hour night?
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Sep 22, 2015 00:54
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Turtlicious posted:So more questions! Length of time will depend on how familiar you and the rest of the players are with the system. Don't be afraid to call a fight when it's clearly decided for one side or the other, and only only only make players actually fight if there's something to be gained. A random encounter just for a random encounter isn't much fun for anyone. The other thing to keep in mind is that you should give your players a long rest every four combat encounters, not at the end of each day - the 'adventuring day' is balanced around that dynamic.
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Sep 22, 2015 01:04
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Has anyone had an issue with Masterplan, Kassoon, and power2ools not connecting with the compendium even though my information is correct?
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Sep 22, 2015 01:44
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Pfox posted:Length of time will depend on how familiar you and the rest of the players are with the system. Don't be afraid to call a fight when it's clearly decided for one side or the other, and only only only make players actually fight if there's something to be gained. A random encounter just for a random encounter isn't much fun for anyone. 4 encounters at a minimum. If they're still sitting on more than 30% of their healing surges after four encounters, give 'em another encounter.
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Sep 22, 2015 01:50
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Khizan posted:4 encounters at a minimum. If they're still sitting on more than 30% of their healing surges after four encounters, give 'em another encounter. Absolutely. My preferred way of handling it is to allow a long rest after three encounters, at a detriment to the current adventure, a rest at four, and a benefit if they manage to last five encounters without one.
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Sep 22, 2015 02:45
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So DND4e, first game I have Saturday, and I normally wing things the night of. With 4e you have to do a bit of prep, so I'm going in with a basic game plan. I'd like you guys to tell me if I thought of everything. Or at least enought 1.) I have 5 combat encounters planned, they're all different, and I'm going to use them in whatever order the party encounters them. (So if they go to a fort instead of a village, the village dudes succeed, and they fight those guys second, and vice versa.) There will be a check to try and negotiate more money. 2.) I have a basic "plot" mapped out for the first night. They meet the king, they get hired to do a job no-one wants, they get interrupted by a 2nd team not deemed "worthy" enough. B-Team does job PC's don't want to do. Rivalry happens maybe. A skill check to stop a brawl, or a combat encounter B team consists of a Bullywug, Tiefling, Human, Kenku, and a Warforged. I named them all after Chrono Trigger characters. B-Team can do one job really well, and the other job they can't, so whatever job the players take decides whether both jobs get done or not. 3.) They go do the thing, or not. Investigation skill checks, then a combat thing 4.) I drop them a big clue, non-roll dependent, and then they go fight some dudes in a dungeon, culminating in a boss battle. I'm using Inherent Bonuses, so I don't have to worry too much about Magic Items. What else would I need to plan ahead of time?
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Sep 22, 2015 06:24
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Turtlicious posted:So DND4e, first game I have Saturday, and I normally wing things the night of. With 4e you have to do a bit of prep, so I'm going in with a basic game plan. I'd like you guys to tell me if I thought of everything. Or at least enought With a brand new group you will be lucky to get to a third encounter. Planning is easy for 4E because of how long the fighting takes.
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Sep 22, 2015 10:45
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Yeah for 5 combat encounters + some noncombat RP I'd assume 3 sessions with my seasoned group. 6+ hour sessions as well.
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Sep 22, 2015 12:32
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My players do NOT have the patience for hour long combat encounters. What's a good way to shave that down to like... 15 - 30 minutes? small amounts of high level mooks?
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Sep 22, 2015 18:11
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Turtlicious posted:My players do NOT have the patience for hour long combat encounters. What's a good way to shave that down to like... 15 - 30 minutes? small amounts of high level mooks? A different system. Seriously, combat taking a long time is just a thing in 4e. It can be fast enough at lower levels but the more you level the longer the combats will inevitably be.
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Sep 22, 2015 18:12
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The problem with higher-level anything, is that all that proscribes is higher defenses (and HP for non-minions) so you end up with increased whiff-factor.
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Sep 22, 2015 18:13
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I'm really sorry to have to tell you this given all the work you've put in, but yeah, if you don't actually like/enjoy the tactical aspect of the game (or do, but don't like that it takes so long), you may want to consider playing something with more loosey-goosey combat, like Strike! or Basic D&D or 13th Age.
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Sep 22, 2015 18:16
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So I think I misunderstood what people meant about quick encounter creation. (Which is said a lot.) What they mean is that I can CREATE encounters super easily, and then we spend an hour resolving it. 5e seems to fix that, but now it's like 4 days before the game and switching isn't really an option. I guess I'll just try this for 2 months, and if they hate it, I'll go "OK let's play 5e."
Turtlicious fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Sep 22, 2015 |
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Sep 22, 2015 18:20
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The other thing you can do is have some way of calling a fight that is clearly done. Having some sort of dramatic moment occur once the heroes achieve dominance that they can role play out is an effective way to end a fight that is overstaying its welcome.
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Sep 22, 2015 18:20
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Just about the only way I can think of is to consistently have alternative winning conditions. The combat ends when the ritual is interrupted/the gate is closed/the trap is disabled/the NPC has reached the safe spot, and so on, and enemies only serve as a complication. It would be quite different to how the game is supposed to go and almost certainly require reworking the rest system. I'd say give it a shot the way it's supposed to go. Maybe they end up engaged enough that they're okay with the longer combats! Turtlicious posted:small amounts of high level mooks?
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Sep 22, 2015 18:36
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Turtlicious posted:So I think I misunderstood what people meant about quick encounter creation. (Which is said a lot.) What they mean is that I can CREATE encounters super easily, and then we spend an hour resolving it. What the gently caress don't play 5e. Play Strike if you're after "4e but with quick combat".
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Sep 22, 2015 18:37
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There are a bunch of little tricks you can do to speed up how quickly you go through turns: * You don't need to resolve the entire die roll of any given attack: if you rolled a 5, it really doesn't matter how many bonuses you have. If you rolled a 15, same thing. You can possibly precalculate an entire range of which die rolls are automatic hits and misses * You can make power cards so that people can know what's available for them to use at a glance * This is heresy, but digital die rollers are a thing - players can pre-program their die rolls with most of the passive bonuses already locked in. Faster to read, too. * Roll damage and to-hit at the same time. Alternatively, use average damage. You may even want to do this for the monsters even if your players don't. As for encounters: remember that D&D is based on resource depletion and attritional warfare: As long as you're damaging the players for more than 25% of their health, they'll burn Healing Surges. As long as you're placing them in tight situations where they need to unload a bunch of damage all at once, they'll use their Daily powers. If they've already taken damage, and/or they've already burned some dailies, the encounter has done its job. You can end it. Throw in a narrative reason if you like. Or don't, just say "well you've beaten the encounter, let's say you mopped them all up and move on". Hell, even if they're not burning dailies now, they sure as hell are going to want to when they're five encounters in, out of Surges and you're still throwing fights at 'em.
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Sep 22, 2015 18:46
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I don't see how 5e fixes anything aside from maybe making me move towards more socially acceptable hobbies.
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Sep 22, 2015 19:09
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Prison Warden posted:I don't see how 5e fixes anything aside from maybe making me move towards more socially acceptable hobbies. Fewer grognards in cockfighting.
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Sep 22, 2015 20:07
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It looks like my gaming group wants to play Revenge of the Giants. I will be a player and I want to play a Battlemind. Is this a good idea?
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Sep 23, 2015 16:27
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My Lovely Horse posted:For what it's worth: other way around. Higher level enemies hit the party all the time and avoid all their attacks, which is frustrating. Lower level enemies are easily disposed of (hitting is more exciting that missing!) and rarely hit, but they're still challenging in large numbers. I usually use monsters in a range of party level -4 to +1. Occasionally +2, but even those are usually a memorable challenge. I pretty much use them for bosses when I can't find a fitting elite. This is going to vary a LOT depending on how optimised the PCs are. For any of the 4e groups I've played with, level -4 is a ridiculously easy cakewalk that usually costs no resources at all. I'd usually advise at-level to level+4.
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Sep 23, 2015 17:23
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It's also strongly dependent on what Tier the party is at. Once you hit Paragon the kiddie gloves come off and you can actually start throwing viable threats the PCs way. At Epic it becomes difficult to actually challenge the players at ALL. A well coordinated group will curbstomp anything you throw their way from Level 21 upwards. Before Paragon though, I don't advise Level+4, save for a fight that is supposed to test the limits of the team and basically be the ONLY combat encounter for that adventuring day. During Heroic you want to keep combats as close to the level of the party as possible, usually Level+0 or Level+1 or +2. You can safely go +3 or +4 during Paragon and expect a challenge that isn't too difficult though. At Epic, as DM, you can just start throwing science at the wall with obscene encounters like Level+8 and poo poo and watch as your party, which has had 20+levels to perfect their tactics just dominate the battlefield.
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Sep 23, 2015 18:14
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