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Archimago posted:Tell me more about how raping a cat is morally equivalent to eating a hamburger. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5S-gRpe81s Yup, I'm sure all those cows are saying to themselves "whelp, at least no one's slipping me the dick, that would just be icky!"
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Sep 22, 2015 14:18
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do furries launch into monologues out of loving nowhere about how the sheeple can't understand their profound philosophy on why loving dogs in the rear end is actually really good and cool because I feel like actually nobody except goons will take any possible tangent into the topic of animal cruelty to try and blow society wide open with their amazing mentally disturbed teenager insights
A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Sep 22, 2015 |
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Sep 22, 2015 14:20
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It's like you feel the need to be irate about something, and to tell the internet how irate you are about it, but you can't figure out what you want to be irate about or articulate that irateness in any communicable fashion. Here, I'll give you a clear, accurate statement. Make of it what you will. The reason that there is virtually no investigation or enforcement when it comes to zoophilia is because there is very little concern for animal welfare in general, especially if there is money, or hamburger to be made. Sizone fucked around with this message at 14:34 on Sep 22, 2015 |
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Sep 22, 2015 14:30
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Sizone posted:It's like you feel the need to be irate about something, and to tell the internet how irate you are about it, but you can't figure out what you want to be irate about or articulate that irateness in any communicable fashion. lol shut the gently caress up you little sociopath
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Sep 22, 2015 14:31
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Sizone posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5S-gRpe81s Cows are loving stupid. They are incapable of actual coherent thoughts.
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Sep 22, 2015 14:47
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don't gently caress a hamburger
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Sep 22, 2015 15:23
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Ah yes the classic "if you can't be perfect in all aspects it's hypocritical to even try and improve the truly horrific aspects" philosophy, guaranteed to absolve it's espouser from any effort to make the world a better place
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Sep 22, 2015 15:33
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:do furries launch into monologues out of loving nowhere about how the sheeple can't understand their profound philosophy on why loving dogs in the rear end is actually really good and cool because I feel like actually nobody except goons will take any possible tangent into the topic of animal cruelty to try and blow society wide open with their amazing mentally disturbed teenager insights Yeup. Every furry I've known has gone into weird rants about how their art or community is so special because of something something Lion King circle of life something something I don't actually want to gently caress dog dicks it's just ~*~*aesthetics~*~* something something drawn gore porn, don't kink shame me. Even after I stopped drawing what few furry pictures I did for cash people would say that my work reminded them of a semi well known artist. An artist who almost exclusively draws monster/furry guys raping and ripping women apart, then loving their internal organs while eating them. Oh and they always had weird dog/horse/whatever dicks too. The only thing I can think of that might be similar in any sort of way beyond "haha you both draw weird poo poo!" was a picture of a halfling riding a wizard's giant dick, cowboy outfit, saddle and all (no sex happening). That was just loving weird and not rapey gore though. To this day I still loving hate those people for getting upset that I didn't like them comparing my work to someone who draws horrendous poo poo. I've also found in the art community the female fans are the worst. They're the ones doing the weird rape gore porn, then screaming about if you're uncomfortable with it then you're just a misogynist because they're a ~*~*female artist~*~*. At the very least dudes know they're hosed up and hide behind the freedom of speech crap.
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Sep 22, 2015 15:33
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Horrible Smutbeast posted:I've also found in the art community the female fans are the worst. They're the ones doing the weird rape gore porn, then screaming about if you're uncomfortable with it then you're just a misogynist because they're a ~*~*female artist~*~*. At the very least dudes know they're hosed up and hide behind the freedom of speech crap. Internalized misogyny is a hell of a thing. I think people creating torture porn* aren't any degree of better or worse by account of gender, no matter what shade it is. They don't know they're "hosed up," either. People who create this stuff and try to defend it (outside of those who are *purely* doing it out of financial desperation) are sick in the head and need medical and psychological intervention. Much like people who do WHAT to animals?! When I read about that upthread...ugh, God, it's been a long time since an "always more, always worse" moment. Someone did a chain emote of pressing a button with the shocked dog, which triggered Psyduck, and so on, and that's how I felt after seeing that. * I mistyped this as "pork" the first time, how timely.
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Sep 22, 2015 17:50
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Sizone posted:It's like you feel the need to be irate about something, and to tell the internet how irate you are about it, but you can't figure out what you want to be irate about or articulate that irateness in any communicable fashion. John Wayne Gacy in the McDonald's Lineup: "When you think about it, I'm not so bad."
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Sep 22, 2015 18:02
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SUPERMAN'S GAL PAL posted:People who create this stuff and try to defend it (outside of those who are *purely* doing it out of financial desperation) are sick in the head and need medical and psychological intervention. Um, actually, it's your fault that you can't separate fantasy from reality ,because obviously they have no relation to each other whatsoeverrargghhh
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Sep 22, 2015 18:06
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many johnnys posted:John Wayne Gacy in the McDonald's Lineup: "When you think about it, I'm not so bad." lol Horrible Smutbeast posted:Yeup. Every furry I've known has gone into weird rants about how their art or community is so special because of something something Lion King circle of life something something I don't actually want to gently caress dog dicks it's just ~*~*aesthetics~*~* something something drawn gore porn, don't kink shame me. wait so people who weren't even commissioning poo poo in a fetish context were bringing up their favorite artist Gutfucker how popular is this guy
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Sep 22, 2015 23:24
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:do furries launch into monologues out of loving nowhere about how the sheeple can't understand their profound philosophy on why loving dogs in the rear end is actually really good and cool because I feel like actually nobody except goons will take any possible tangent into the topic of animal cruelty to try and blow society wide open with their amazing mentally disturbed teenager insights the number of plain standard-issue rapists/creeps is on the rise however
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Sep 23, 2015 04:29
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I like to think that it is theoretically possible to like whatever furry/guro/whatever else combination you can think of without necessarily being a bad person or hosed up. I have no solid evidence of this (with the possible exception of a person I follow on Tumblr that is into vore and seems to be alright, but that is anedoctal and you can't really judge this by their blog), but I always get the feeling that a lot of the things I like (RPGs like Chuubo or Monsters and Other Childish Things, videogames like Sunless Sea and Darkest Dungeon) would be considered weird and even gross at times by lots of people I know; which means that how can I pass judgement on the artistic taste of these people, if I could be considered no better than them? Whiz Palace posted:Um, actually, it's your fault that you can't separate fantasy from reality ,because obviously they have no relation to each other whatsoeverrargghhh
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Sep 23, 2015 12:08
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I believe in the theoretical person who is a good upstanding citizen who is well-adjusted and not abnormal in any other way who is into guro or lolicon or whatever but I think it is worth this theoretical person undergoing regular psychiatric evaluation if that means everybody else who is into these things is also being checked up on. Like that's a minor invasion of this theoretical person's rights but it seems like a fair trade to me to keep an eye on all of the non-theoretical weirdbeards out there before they chop up a cat or whatever.
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Sep 23, 2015 13:31
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Some of them are upstanding citizens some of them are Prime Ministers
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Sep 23, 2015 14:53
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I get your joke but I would generally speaking find it easier to give the benefit of the doubt to a furry than a prime minister.
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Sep 23, 2015 16:35
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Travis343 posted:I believe in the theoretical person who is a good upstanding citizen who is well-adjusted and not abnormal in any other way who is into guro or lolicon or whatever but I think it is worth this theoretical person undergoing regular psychiatric evaluation if that means everybody else who is into these things is also being checked up on. Like that's a minor invasion of this theoretical person's rights but it seems like a fair trade to me to keep an eye on all of the non-theoretical weirdbeards out there before they chop up a cat or whatever. same but with violent video games too 
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Sep 23, 2015 17:57
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dumb bait post aside though that sort of solution has a bunch of related problems that don't really make it viable. The first is that, currently, there aren't any conclusive studies on how much harm a drawing, no matter how disgusting it might be, actually causes. Would the people who look at gore/lolicon/torture stuff and bring it into the real world still offend if they didn't have access to the drawings, etc.? A counterargument could be made that even if the drawings themselves cause no direct or indirect harm, it's still a signifier that those people could be into some really nasty real life poo poo, but you could also make that argument for monitoring people who are big fans of Star Trek or people who play something like Hatred so you'd then need to do a study to see if there's a higher than average proportion of people into said nasty real life poo poo looking at drawn gore porn or whatever and lmao at ever collecting statistics like that, you will never get an honest answer or likely even a response from the demographic you need to survey. This is an issue since there would need to be a fairly concrete reason to enact laws that infringe on someone's rights. The second and more important one is that we can't even catch all the pedophiles/animal torture people who are dealing in media that causes real harm, and trying to enact regulations of drawings that will immediately go underground in a similar fashion is a huge waste of resources when you consider that it's difficult to make the argument that said drawings cause even indirect harm, and the only punishment you can dole out is mandatory psychiatry. The money would be better spent on catching the real stuff, essentially. A better solution would be easier access and destigmatization of mental health in general, and a strong, society-wide push towards everyone going and getting regular psychiatric examinations, but that sort of poo poo is a long way off. e: Now that I think about it, just a societal push for people into extreme forms of drawn porn with harmful real life analogues to get therapy would be both cheaper and probably more effective, and a good first step towards the solution above. Control Volume fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 18:42
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SUPERMAN'S GAL PAL posted:Internalized misogyny is a hell of a thing. I think people creating torture porn* aren't any degree of better or worse by account of gender, no matter what shade it is. They don't know they're "hosed up," either. People who create this stuff and try to defend it (outside of those who are *purely* doing it out of financial desperation) are sick in the head and need medical and psychological intervention. It's not internalized misogyny, it's women in the scene who have seen men dominate the gross hosed gore niche market for the last 10-20 years so now they want to get in on it. I saw the same thing when there was that writing erotic fiction novels for amazon thread here. Lots of people (even mods) were saying that because they were women writing about incest porn with men taking advantage of their daughters or younger sisters it was okay because it was "feminist," somehow. My point was the men in that scene will defend their work under artistic license or freedom of speech (which doesn't apply in most countries outside the USA btw!) while women will defend themselves with I'M A WOMAN AND YOU HATE MY WORK SO YOU MUST JUST HATE WOMEN! A Wizard of Goatse posted:wait so people who weren't even commissioning poo poo in a fetish context were bringing up their favorite artist Gutfucker Girl, and pretty loving popular apparently. She's switched to drawing monster men with vaginas sticking knives up in there to masturbate with but she's gotten 100 times worse at drawing so hopefully I never hear my work getting compared to theirs ever again. She also still just draws furries so fingers crossed. Gutfucker is probably the most hilarious term I have heard for this and I will use this forever. Control Volume posted:dumb bait post aside though that sort of solution has a bunch of related problems that don't really make it viable. The first is that, currently, there aren't any conclusive studies on how much harm a drawing, no matter how disgusting it might be, actually causes. Would the people who look at gore/lolicon/torture stuff and bring it into the real world still offend if they didn't have access to the drawings, etc.? A counterargument could be made that even if the drawings themselves cause no direct or indirect harm, it's still a signifier that those people could be into some really nasty real life poo poo, but you could also make that argument for monitoring people who are big fans of Star Trek or people who play something like Hatred so you'd then need to do a study to see if there's a higher than average proportion of people into said nasty real life poo poo looking at drawn gore porn or whatever and lmao at ever collecting statistics like that, you will never get an honest answer or likely even a response from the demographic you need to survey. This is an issue since there would need to be a fairly concrete reason to enact laws that infringe on someone's rights. There are a lot of people who are into gore for ~*~*aesthetic~*~* reasons or medical ones. I had to learn all the muscle groups and bones in college classes and we even took a trip to body worlds and a local university to draw from dissected corpses. For games like Dead Space a few of the artists on the team had to go research how people gib apart from gore sites to make the game feel more real/visceral at the cost of some of their sanity. The people in question we're arguing about who are a large part of the furry community aren't these people - they don't care about how an actual C-section would be performed, they want to draw, share, and see images of a monster furry dude eating a baby out of a woman's stomach while loving her with his dog dick for whatever sexual gratification reason. The images are almost always drawn for sexual gratification too so it throws the whole ~*~aesthetics~*~* excuse out the window. The lolicon issue is a completely different one too since, from what I heard from family members who have worked busting child porn rings, there have been instances of some artists using actual child porn as references for the work as well as it being used as a way to groom young children because it stars characters they can relate to. There's also the question of morality on the whole fact that it's sexualization of children.
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Sep 23, 2015 19:19
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Also, Sorry Camrath for turning this into a bitter ex furry artist ranting spot about the worst in the community. If you want to get back on topic with specifics about the scene just say so and I'll be happy to stop posting about this.
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Sep 23, 2015 19:20
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Horrible Smutbeast posted:The lolicon issue is a completely different one too since, from what I heard from family members who have worked busting child porn rings, there have been instances of some artists using actual child porn as references for the work as well as it being used as a way to groom young children because it stars characters they can relate to. There's also the question of morality on the whole fact that it's sexualization of children. I'm not disagreeing that lolicon is awful but legislature needs hard data to back it up if it doesn't want to either be easily abused to apply to other forms of drawn porn or be completely impotent in accomplishing its goal of reducing child abuse. A lot of pressure in that regard should come from individual communities rather than law, and the pressure should push for them to get help (otherwise you just get groups of ostracized people banding together and forming their own anime child porn echo chamber). Control Volume fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Sep 23, 2015 |
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Sep 23, 2015 19:25
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Control Volume posted:I'm not disagreeing that lolicon is awful but legislature needs hard data to back it up if it doesn't want to either be easily abused to apply to other forms of drawn porn or be completely impotent in accomplishing its goal of reducing child abuse. A lot of pressure in that regard should come from individual communities rather than law, and the pressure should push for them to get help (otherwise you just get groups of ostracized people banding together and forming their own anime child porn echo chamber). It's a huge issue that's linked to other issues and can't be separated into one neat package unfortunately. Escalation into more depraved pornography, regardless of orientations, is a thing in psychology that's being studied and can't make a judgement on the pedophilia angle yet. It's like the whole violence in videogames don't cause people to become violent, but indulging in it regularly or having an outlet that encourages violence when you have a predisposition can worsen it. In the furry community, from what I saw at the time before bailing, has the added issues of where the characters are non-human or almost completely drawn so they have an even bigger buffer between "real" acts of violence or sexual abuse. It's far easier for them to one up each other on depravity to the point where you get the really bizarre poo poo like the Gutfuckers defending themselves with "it's just a drawing don't look at it if you don't like it!" logic. Which...doesn't really work.
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Sep 23, 2015 20:49
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Horrible Smutbeast posted:It's a huge issue that's linked to other issues and can't be separated into one neat package unfortunately. Escalation into more depraved pornography, regardless of orientations, is a thing in psychology that's being studied and can't make a judgement on the pedophilia angle yet. It's like the whole violence in videogames don't cause people to become violent, but indulging in it regularly or having an outlet that encourages violence when you have a predisposition can worsen it. Well when it gets to the point where something is so far removed from reality that it doesn't have an obvious real world analogue, it also becomes difficult to make the argument that it's going to spill out into real life. If someone has a fetish for a werewolf sticking knives up a vagina to masturbate, that's not really something you'd see in real life outside of literal serial killers (who are incredibly rare), so it's hard to make the argument that it's leading to a rise in vagina knife masturbation or causing actual harm beyond making someone on the internet feel really uncomfortable. In that context, the defense of "if you don't like it don't look at it" could work if the person using it isn't putting it in places where it shouldn't be, or including proper warnings that they're about to see some hosed up poo poo, or not talking about it all the time in the company of people who want to hear it. Honestly, if they meet all those conditions, weirdass gore porn artist can do whatever the hell they want because it's almost certainly not going to spread into real life and I don't have to hear about it. But in your situation where you're hearing about it regardless, yeah, the defense doesn't work and they can and should be called on that poo poo.
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Sep 23, 2015 21:12
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Control Volume posted:In that context, the defense of "if you don't like it don't look at it" could work if the person using it isn't putting it in places where it shouldn't be, or including proper warnings that they're about to see some hosed up poo poo, or not talking about it all the time in the company of people who want to hear it. for an example of a group that does not meet any of these conditions but still tries using this defense, let me tell you about bronies
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Sep 23, 2015 21:35
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Horrible Smutbeast posted:Also, Sorry Camrath for turning this into a bitter ex furry artist ranting spot about the worst in the community. If you want to get back on topic with specifics about the scene just say so and I'll be happy to stop posting about this. It's all good man (well not /good/, but you know what I mean). Having never been able to draw even stick figures well I have absolutely no insight about the artistic experience of the fandom, so it's both horrifying and fascinating to have a different perspective. To be honest this thread has been going for like three months, hasn't dropped beneath a 4 rating and has barely been off the first page, so people are obviously interested in the discussion. Also, props to the A/T community in general for running with this thread and not drowning it in a torrent of shitposts- I wasn't expecting it to last more than a couple of days tbh!
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Sep 24, 2015 13:00
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Several pages back, someone posted about scanning and uploading a funny flyer or something that she got from a con, and I'm really hoping that she decides to do that. I'm a sucker for unintentionally hilarious things like that.
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Oct 4, 2015 21:11
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BiggerJ posted:How often are the polite people who commission weird stuff also furries? Furries tend to be tolerant of all kinds of fetishes, perhaps because they have been excluded so much by others that they have come to believe that most if not all exclusion is wrong. I can't help but wonder how much that reduces their self-awareness of their non-furry fetishes/interests. Oops, totally missed the replies to my old post! I guess they're still relevant so I'm answering anyway. Most of my commissions are from furries, through an account I set up for furry art specifically because I don't want it associated with my main username. My MAIN account has almost no furry stuff. And I don't know if I'm the best person to ask this, since my main art subject matters aren't like...vanilla cartoony action/fluff stuff or fanart, like many artists who are successful at commissions through tumblr or whatever. I tend to draw a ton of monsters and gore/violence/body horror. To be honest, given my main blog's content, people seeking to commission me there might be creepier than the furries, depending on why they follow me. I don't generally ask. But I assume there would at least be more otherkin and gore porn enthusiasts in that crowd. All of my obvious fetish commissioners have been furries, though, yeah. EDIT: just scrolled up and saw Horrible Smutbeast's posts about gore and gross stuff, hooooo. Not sure how to contribute to that conversation except to say that I think there's an important distinction to make between GORE art/porn and TORTURE art/porn. I've noticed a lot of my commissioners who are interested in gore like it largely as...a visual, I guess? The focus is more on the wrecked anatomy than anything else (which is what interests me as well), and is often clinical or artistic, rather than overtly sexual or cruel. I rarely have people interested in the suffering of the depicted characters, which is what the torture people are into. There's a gross focus on domination and suffering in torture art that creeps me the gently caress out. Which I guess sounds hypocritical, given that I like gore art, but I think there's a huge difference between the anatomical interest in gore and romanticizing the psychological trauma/shock value in torture poo poo. Archimago posted:I know this is kind of off-topic, but when you're taking a commission is it not standard practice to get like, half upfront? I mean they could obviously still screw you for the other half, but then you can just not deliver the final product? I only take full payment up front. A lot of artists do it different ways, and generally commissions over 100$--digital or not--will offer an option for installments, but I do small, fast work and insist on payment before starting. People have cheated me out of money, and it's easier to issue a refund than dog someone for weeks over 20$. It varies a lot depending on the type of commission, but my method is not unusual. For fursuits, most companies offer installments, yeah. Usually 50-100$ chunks minimum over a few months to a year; the idea is that by the time the character is off the waiting list and being made, it'll have been paid off. Because of the long wait times, there have been a lot of cases of furries getting swindled out of thousands when their maker vanishes off the face of the earth/has 'health problems' and refuses to refund. A couple thousand is enough to hurt (especially to people who are usually unemployed) but not enough to get a lawyer involved, so getting a fursuit from anyone but a reputable maker is a gamble! Almost all makers insist on a payment that covers materials before they even start, so usually it's the customer who's at greatest risk when buying something huge like a suit. TheAbominableSnow fucked around with this message at 03:33 on Nov 2, 2015 |
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Nov 2, 2015 03:21
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In my experience, once you reach your 30s you stop giving a gently caress about furries. If you are really anti-furry, you calm down and can more easily accept that anthro animals can be attractive in so far as any fictional character can be; and if you are an active furry you stop babbling about "the community" and trying to promote it as some sort of natural birth lifestyle akin to being black or gay. The latter is the only thing that really annoys me about furries. Science, nature, a religious deity, whatever you blame for the cause of life on this planet didn't put cartoon animals on the earth for you to be able to wish you were married to. The anthro-cartoon attraction is a perfect example of the kind of cultural learned behavior that homosexuality is often mistaken for, so if furries could stop pretending otherwise they would stop offending a lot of the population. If you can admit it's just a kink-fetish and treat it the way that, I dunno, fans of leather and latex and gas masks do with their aphrodisiacs, you're okay with me. Unfortunately, the stupid self-obsessed stuff that furries have been doing for at least 20 years will only get worse, because it's spread to the rest of young adults and created the narcissistic 'selfie' mini-generation coming of age right now. The one thing that furry fandom seems to be known for above all else is thinking that it sure is a special unique subject that they should navel-gaze over. Craptacular! fucked around with this message at 09:28 on Nov 2, 2015 |
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Nov 2, 2015 09:25
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quote:
Yeah, suitmakers going scammer is very much a thing. My girlfriend lost about £700 a few years ago to Avsun when they did a runner, and I had a maker go mental on me back in 2012. Luckily didn't lose money other than interest I would have accrued, but yeah.. In other furry news, since this thread was last active several US conventions have lost their venues due to the bad behaviour of their attendees, in the UK a dude by the name of Angel McCleod has managed to get himself chain-banned from first nearly every furry event going and then multiple LARP systems for out and out sexual harassment (at one point he wanted to commission my gf for faun legs as LARP kit and from that brief conversation made her feel deeply uncomfortable and creeped out) and various documentaries are apparently being made with the nornal feuding between people who refuse to have anything to do with the media and those who are convinced they'll be the ones to make furry look good and cool and normal. I await the results with baited breath, popcorn and a funnel to collect the furry tears.
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Nov 2, 2015 12:30
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I am happy to hear that some effort is being made to keep the most turbulent furries under control. If this discourages these attitudes in the future, even better.
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Nov 2, 2015 13:38
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Camrath posted:
Ooh, yeah, that's been fantastic to watch go down. Has this thread talked about what happened in RainFurrest this year? A shitload of people on my furry fb feed were there so I had the next best thing to front row seats. It's AMAZING how babyfurs can ruin everything.
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Nov 3, 2015 01:11
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TheAbominableSnow posted:Ooh, yeah, that's been fantastic to watch go down. Has this thread talked about what happened in RainFurrest this year? A shitload of people on my furry fb feed were there so I had the next best thing to front row seats. It's AMAZING how babyfurs can ruin everything. Cannot   hard enough.
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Nov 3, 2015 01:53
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Oh boy. Here, let your mind extrapolate from these images:     The 'crinkle' ribbons on the badges are a babyfur thing that refers to the sounds a diaper makes. Basically, the con made the mistake of being perceived as babyfur-friendly, which lead to tons of babyfurs very publicly posting about what they were doing/going to do at the convention, and essentially getting so gung ho about it that they lost any semblance of decency and led to the con being kicked out of their hotel. There was apparently liquid poo poo in the hotel hot tub at one point because of diaper-wearing bathers. The con sent out an email (which is floating around somewhere) that basically said that the levels of vandalism and sexually explicit acts the hotel experienced during the furcon were off the charts compared to all the other events the venue hosted, and that they were not allowed to return next year. It was basically fetishcon 2015. Even regular furries are usually really grossed out by those types of people, if it makes anyone feel any better. Mostly everyone who was posting about it was super pissed off about the gross people ruining everyone else's good time.
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Nov 3, 2015 04:10
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jesus christ
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Nov 3, 2015 04:18
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I thought I heard it wasn't so much the babyfurs but people shoving towels into jacuzzis and drilling glory holes and getting arrested/hospitalized that was the major problem. Either way, yeah, it was kind of amazing to see, and no one is really happy about it.
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Nov 3, 2015 04:54
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I wonder whatever happened to the "yiff the otter" guy.
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Nov 3, 2015 12:35
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ALL-PRO SEXMAN posted:I wonder whatever happened to the "yiff the otter" guy. I've not heard anything about Nekobe for years, though I believe he was in jail at least at one point in the noughties. The depressing thing is, there are so many other hosed up individuals out there that he would probably fade into the background these days; the fandom in the nineties was a very different place.
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Nov 3, 2015 14:19
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Nature of the Internet, man. If you give people a space to build judgement free echo chambers, a certain subset of them will gravitate towards these to the exclusion of all other socialization, and it seriously warps their ideas of what is socially acceptable.
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Nov 3, 2015 20:03
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I would like to know about the furry security agency MI:3 that you mentioned earlier.
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Nov 17, 2015 07:31
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