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Kajeesus posted:There's a pretty big difference between being evil and doing evil deeds, particularly in a universe where killing is often treated as a moral act. Varsuuvius has always been prone to pragmatism, and as we've seen, vindictive cruelty when told V's actions have no consequences. Killing Belkar, a known evil entity with a heavy criminal record, wouldn't even be a particularly evil act in the D&D universe; unlawful at most. Killing a defenseless octogenarian didn't make Miko evil, it just meant she did something evil. You're Beep Booping a bit on Belkar. She was going to kill him out of rage, while he was helpless (seriously, it looks like a Smite Coup de Grace) because he taunted her, and wounded her pride. Pointing out that he registers as Evil to Paladin-O-Vision and that he's a violent criminal are post hoc justifications. If you can't imagine Michael Carpenter (Dresden Files) order Superman doing it (without lots of ANGST issues afterwards) then it's probably not something a Paladin be doing. Being a Paladin is deliberately harder than just being Lawful Good, and Atonement exists for a reason.
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Sep 23, 2015 11:18
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I'm not saying Miko was good at being a paladin, but this is a universe where killing children for having green or orange skin is cool and good.
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Sep 23, 2015 11:26
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Kajeesus posted:I'm not saying Miko was good at being a paladin, but this is a universe where killing children for having green or orange skin is cool and good. Except paladins fell for that too.
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Sep 23, 2015 12:40
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Zoe posted:Except paladins fell for that too. #greenlivesmatter
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Sep 23, 2015 14:17
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Angela Christine posted:#goblinoidlivesmatter Fixed
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Sep 23, 2015 16:17
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Personally I think the most anyone summarily executing Belkar would get would be a minor chaos shift, if they're deliberately ignoring a ready and available legal system in the immediate vicinity that's capable of dealing with him instead.
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Sep 23, 2015 16:22
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Killing a threat and executing a defeated foe when it is possible and even trivial to capture them again are different things. Miko killing Belkar in the process of defending lives or stopping a criminal would not make her fall. Miko killing him because she's really angry and wants to murder someone would.
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Sep 23, 2015 16:32
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Rygar201 posted:You're Beep Booping a bit on Belkar. She was going to kill him out of rage, while he was helpless (seriously, it looks like a Smite Coup de Grace) because he taunted her, and wounded her pride. Pointing out that he registers as Evil to Paladin-O-Vision and that he's a violent criminal are post hoc justifications. That's pretty ridiculous. She wouldn't have been trying to kill him if he didn't escape from jail and murder someone in the process. It doesn't suddenly become an Evil act because he made her angry during the course of the pursuit. (I also don't think taking advantage of having worn down your opponent to deliver the final blow is an Evil thing, especially when he literally just proved your prison can't hold him.) By this logic, if Roy were a paladin, killing Xykon would make him fall because Xykon always pisses him off so much.
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Sep 23, 2015 16:44
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Carrasco posted:That's pretty ridiculous. She wouldn't have been trying to kill him if he didn't escape from jail and murder someone in the process. It doesn't suddenly become an Evil act because he made her angry during the course of the pursuit. (I also don't think taking advantage of having worn down your opponent to deliver the final blow is an Evil thing, especially when he literally just proved your prison can't hold him.) When the body had stopped rolling, Vimes looked around the square. People were watching from the coaches. The crowds were silent. There were a lot of things he could say. ‘Son of a bitch!’ would have been a good one. Or he could say, ‘Welcome to civilization!’ He could have said, ‘Laugh this one off!’ He might have said, ‘Fetch!’ But he didn’t, because if he had said any of those things then he’d have known that what he had just done was murder.
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Sep 23, 2015 17:34
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Yes! Keep going, start another alignment derail!
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Sep 23, 2015 17:54
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... "Start"? 
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Sep 23, 2015 17:56
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Every towne has two shoppes. You got the good shoppe, and the shoppe humanoid races USED to go to. Now let me tell you about goblins. There's two types of goblins. You got goblins, and you got gobos. And the gobos are loving it up for all us goblins.
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Sep 23, 2015 18:01
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aaah alignment paladin debate combo aaaaah
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Sep 23, 2015 18:18
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I hope Rich is OK.
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Sep 23, 2015 23:41
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ultrafilter posted:I hope Rich is OK. He'll probably be okay on Monday, like he has been the past few weeks.
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Sep 23, 2015 23:51
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It's simple, really. If your DM thinks your paladin should Fall for something they've done and you can't reasonably argue otherwise, then your paladin Falls.
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Sep 23, 2015 23:58
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It amazes me how much nerds can argue when the objective right answer is "Whatever the guy running the game decides."
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Sep 24, 2015 00:29
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Mystic Mongol posted:There's just something magical about Paladins that makes DMs crazy for taking away their meager class features. Druids can fall, too, and no one gives them poo poo over it. Druid falling rules are WAY more lenient. "Ceasing to revere nature" is hard to enforce ("burn down this forest-orphanage of orcs!"), so really all you've got is "don't teach someone your secret language" and "don't switch an alignment that isn't Neutral in some way".
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Sep 24, 2015 00:42
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Classtoise posted:Druid falling rules are WAY more lenient. You forgot "don't use anything metal, except when it's allowed". Druids are like the Catholics of D&D.
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Sep 24, 2015 01:05
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Don't worry though you can cast a spell to make your wood metal.
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Sep 24, 2015 01:10
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Classtoise posted:Druid falling rules are WAY more lenient. A strict reading of the original 3.5 player's handbook could make a druid fall for using any tool that contained metal. Like, say, a door with hinges. Sucker. But no, it's always a Paladin falling for enjoying being a rad warrior of justice too much, or spending money on a magic sword they could have given to the poor, or giving money to the poor instead of spending it on a rad magic sword to protect the poor from orcs.
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Sep 24, 2015 02:20
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Mystic Mongol posted:A strict reading of the original 3.5 player's handbook could make a druid fall for using any tool that contained metal. Like, say, a door with hinges. Sucker. That's why you have Warp Wood 
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Sep 24, 2015 04:16
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Classtoise posted:That's why you have Warp Wood See? Even better! The Druid could have just cast Warp Wood, but they decided to violate their druidic oaths instead.
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Sep 24, 2015 04:33
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Who What Now posted:Yep, completely useless. Except for the other dozen or so times it's worked perfectly, it hasn't worked a single time! I mean, the one thing fighters can do is hit mans and fighters aren't even that good at it.
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Sep 24, 2015 05:05
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Anatharon posted:I mean, the one thing fighters can do is hit mans and fighters aren't even that good at it. No, fighters are good at that. The problem is that spellcasters are better at making mans fall down, usually without even needing to hit them.
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Sep 24, 2015 05:30
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Classtoise posted:That's why you have Warp Wood Isn't that a spell from the book of Nyphmology? Oh no, that's Store Wood. Never mind.
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Sep 24, 2015 08:24
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Mystic Mongol posted:A strict reading of the original 3.5 player's handbook could make a druid fall for using any tool that contained metal. Like, say, a door with hinges. Sucker. It would certainly brighten the day of my one buddy who quotes the "she doesn't look Druish" line from Spaceballs on average once per session.
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Sep 24, 2015 15:08
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W.T. Fits posted:No, fighters are good at that. The problem is that spellcasters are better at making mans fall down, usually without even needing to hit them. Yeah, if you get a fighter in melee range with a caster, the fighter will often win. A min-maxed fighter with charge bonuses and a fancy mount will even win many straight-up fights that don't start from melee range! The issue is more that most casters are also really good, often better, at winning fights in various ways, and also have huge swathes of utility magic that can be adapted to any situation, whereas fighters have to buy in to lengthy feat chains to specialise in one gimmick.
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Sep 24, 2015 16:08
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Android Blues posted:Yeah, if you get a fighter in melee range with a caster, the fighter will often win. A min-maxed fighter with charge bonuses and a fancy mount will even win many straight-up fights that don't start from melee range! Right. The real problem is win conditions. The Fighter wins by charging in, smashing the caster before he can get a spell off, and what have you. The caster wins by Dimension Dooring away, or having Contingency: Dimension Door ready to go with the "anyone with intent to harm me steps within 10 feet of me in an attempt to engage me in melee combat", and...well, poo poo. Just about anything. Flesh to Stone, Slay Living, Destruction, Disintegrate, Gate, Summon Monster 9... If the Caster is even high enough level to HAVE Dimension Door, let alone Contingency, it's an uphill battle for the Fighter. Fighters aren't BAD. In fact, you put them in their role? Standing at the front lines, keeping that big loving ogre from eating the Cleric? He's fine.
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Sep 24, 2015 20:21
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Classtoise posted:Fighters aren't BAD. In fact, you put them in their role? Standing at the front lines, keeping that big loving ogre from eating the Cleric? He's fine. A cleric'd fill that role better.
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Sep 24, 2015 20:26
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Mystic Mongol posted:A cleric'd fill that role better. poo poo, a WIZARD could do that role better with a Summoned creature, but that's par for the course in 3.5.
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Sep 24, 2015 21:18
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Classtoise posted:Right. The real problem is win conditions. On the other hand, the fight can whittle away the caster's spells through preparation and throwing gold at it. Belt of Freedom of Movement means your immune from most of his Save or Lose spells. Potions of Restoration, Immune from Save or Suck. Cloak of Spell Resistance and now he has to make a dice save each time. Boost your saves through potions and other shenanigans and you make the remainder of his Anti-Fighter spells fight for every save. Dimension Door away? Flying Mount. Disintegrate? You're a fighter is CON up the butt just tank it. Once he's out of spells you still got half your hitpoints and a sword that can still whale on him. A smart fighter like Roy can win that fight. A Wizard's advantage comes from Scry-and-Die tactics but engage one with just as much preparation from the same gold base and I think the fighter can compete.
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Sep 24, 2015 21:46
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Raenir Salazar posted:On the other hand, the fight can whittle away the caster's spells through preparation and throwing gold at it. Belt of Freedom of Movement means your immune from most of his Save or Lose spells. Potions of Restoration, Immune from Save or Suck. Cloak of Spell Resistance and now he has to make a dice save each time. Boost your saves through potions and other shenanigans and you make the remainder of his Anti-Fighter spells fight for every save. If a Fighter has a flying mount (From where? Is it something they bought, or do they have a caster on their team too?) that's required to catch the caster, then the caster is going to target it and take it out, one way or another, neutralizing that advantage with most likely a single spell and probably sending the Fighter plummeting a ways. Not fatally because fall damage is nothing, but they're gonna fall, and then be useless again. Also, note how most of the "advantages" the Fighter has here come from, of all things, magic items. A Fighter has to buy the ability to deal with a Wizard, who, in this scenario at least, seems to be using nothing but their spells and is probably still going to win. You're stacking the deck as much as you can in the Fighter's favor (despite saying "the same gold base" not a single one of the magic items that would help protect the wizard here have come up) and honestly it isn't even working. And no, scry-and-die isn't the only thing a Wizard has going for them, I don't even know where that came from.
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Sep 24, 2015 22:06
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Roland Jones posted:Also, note how most of the "advantages" the Fighter has here come from, of all things, magic items. This is silly.
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Sep 24, 2015 22:20
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Character classes should only be allowed to use items that they have crafted themselves, that's why only wizards can use magic items, and only cobblers can wear shoes. Also if we compare a wizard with infinite spell slots who has prepared all the spells from the PHB and a fighter without magic item, we find out that the wizard is overpowered, so clearly the balance in D&D sucks. Also the greengrocer character class is clearly shafted compared to the mechanic character class, because if the greengrocer wants to commute at the same speed as the mechanic, he has to use a car, of all things. You think the mechanic would need cabbages to commute? Mechanics are overpowered. Cat Mattress fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Sep 24, 2015 |
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Sep 24, 2015 22:20
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Raenir Salazar posted:This is silly. You're focusing on the wrong part of that; it's the "items" part that's important, not the "magic". All of your hypothetical Fighter's power is coming from his equipment, whereas the Wizard is extremely powerful and capable by default. A cash injection makes the Wizard better, whereas the Fighter is nothing without it, and still less than a penniless Wizard with it. Which is bad. Trying to make up extremely narrow scenarios where the Fighter has some not-really-an-advantage is just hiding the fact that 3.5e is designed badly. Roland Jones fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Sep 24, 2015 |
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Sep 24, 2015 23:15
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Raenir Salazar posted:On the other hand, the fight can whittle away the caster's spells through preparation and throwing gold at it. Belt of Freedom of Movement means your immune from most of his Save or Lose spells. Potions of Restoration, Immune from Save or Suck. Cloak of Spell Resistance and now he has to make a dice save each time. Boost your saves through potions and other shenanigans and you make the remainder of his Anti-Fighter spells fight for every save. A cleric'd use those items better.
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Sep 24, 2015 23:33
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I remember years ago a friend talking about how on the official forums some people did a one on one arena style combat thing and have everyone a level to use, and the amount of gold for items. Then they ran it through the combat and posted the results. They said that some absurd percentage of the time, a cleric won hands down. Like three rounds in. Not sure if he was bullshitting or not, but I could believe it.
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Sep 24, 2015 23:45
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Every class gets Magic Items. Trying to use Magic Items to bridge the gap between fighter and wizard is an exercise in futility because every advantage the fighter buys in order to even the playing field, the wizard buys one to keep himself out of reach. Of course, the Wizard also has access to Magic Item crafting and can get what he needs for half the price, if he feels like it. Or the wizard could just cast disjunction, but hey
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Sep 24, 2015 23:47
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Cat Mattress posted:Character classes should only be allowed to use items that they have crafted themselves, that's why only wizards can use magic items, and only cobblers can wear shoes. Also if we compare a wizard with infinite spell slots who has prepared all the spells from the PHB and a fighter without magic item, we find out that the wizard is overpowered, so clearly the balance in D&D sucks. In this scenario, can my 1st edition fighter use siege weapons? edit: Best fighter move in a wizard fight is to sunder the spellbook. edit of the edit: and then run away. And force the DM to start enforcing gold expenditure rules for wizards. A.o.D. fucked around with this message at 23:58 on Sep 24, 2015 |
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Sep 24, 2015 23:55
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