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Ah Hideo, master of exposition <3 MGS1 - your former unit, AnimalAnimal has taken over IslandBase FunnyName. Even though it's your former unit (of which I was commander), here's who they are anyway, you probably don't know them. I've gotta say, it's nice to see the roots of the whole thing and I know for a fact I wouldn't have liked it when it first came out - I had no patience for involved gameplay back then.
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Sep 25, 2015 13:51
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So Im redoing missiosn to get all the objectvies and the additional conversations are great, like in War Economy. I'm also noticing if you are super patient some easy solution presents itself, like fultoning the truck with the two guys in it.
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Sep 25, 2015 14:09
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Ledenko posted:Ah Hideo, master of exposition <3 Solid didn't know Liquid and his FOXHOUND unit. He left FOXHOUND after the events of Metal Gear 2. Roy Campbell left also, and Liquid took over.
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Sep 25, 2015 14:20
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I tried playing a new game of MGS1 the other day. Peeking round the corner at the first guard, I tapped on the wall to get his attention, intending to hip toss him to the ground as he got close. It... didn't work so well.
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Sep 25, 2015 14:24
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The worst part of MGSV is not being able to assemble your own Foxhound-esque unit of weird dudes and use them as your buddies outside of Quiet.
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Sep 25, 2015 14:36
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Grinning Goblin posted:The worst part of MGSV is not being able to assemble your own Foxhound-esque unit of weird dudes and use them as your buddies outside of Quiet. MGO is this I guess
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Sep 25, 2015 15:01
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I had never played Ghost Babel until a few weeks ago. It's a lowkey hidden gem. Obviously not on a par with any of the 3D games, but still a cool little footnote.
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Sep 25, 2015 16:05
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Hijo Del Helmsley posted:I had never played Ghost Babel until a few weeks ago. I love it. It has way more depth and content than you'd expect from a Game Boy game and is a stellar refinement of 2D Metal Gear. Definitely worth checking out.
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Sep 25, 2015 17:12
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My brother was telling me yesterday that Venom Snake doesn't exist, and Big Boss and Big Boss just suffered brain damage from the helicopter accident which is making him hallucinate all game. His basic argument is that one of the themes of the final chapter of the game is "there are no such things as facts, only interpretations". When taken into context that mission 46 points out lots of inconsistencies like "Ocelot takes venom and gets on a ship to the seychelles at 4 am in the original intro, but in mission 46e he gives big boss the motorcycle at 6 am". He also cites all the hallucinations about Paz, and that you have a hallucination about saving Paz, which the medic never did, Snake did. Is this an actual theory or just my brother being crazy?
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Sep 25, 2015 17:17
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Venom Snake is actually Liquid's arm.
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Sep 25, 2015 17:21
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Megasabin posted:My brother was telling me yesterday that Venom Snake doesn't exist, and Big Boss and Big Boss just suffered brain damage from the helicopter accident which is making him hallucinate all game. It can be both and it is
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Sep 25, 2015 17:23
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chico was decoy octopus all along
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Sep 25, 2015 17:24
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It is a theory, just a really dumb one that runs counter to all of the themes and messages the series has been putting forth.
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Sep 25, 2015 17:26
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Just replayed the mission to extract Emmerich. The first thing the AI pod says is "It's not you... is it?" 
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Sep 25, 2015 17:38
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And immediately after, Huey gets confused and doesn't seem to recognize Snake.
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Sep 25, 2015 17:48
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Big Boss is the worst boss to have ChaosArgate posted:And immediately after, Huey gets confused and doesn't seem to recognize Snake. Well that one is at least understandable, Big Boss has been "dead" for 9 years, his face is all scarred up, and he has a horn now, should make anyone do a double take
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Sep 25, 2015 17:50
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:It is a theory, just a really dumb one that runs counter to all of the themes and messages the series has been putting forth. Can you elaborate on this please?
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Sep 25, 2015 17:51
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Detective No. 27 posted:Just replayed the mission to extract Emmerich. The first thing the AI pod says is "It's not you... is it?" When we first got the pod back to MB, i walked up to it hoping for some PW style interactions, instead, all it did is question if it's really you, then begs you to kill it. No AI'd retellings of Joy quotes, nothin. At first i thought it was another thing that they didn't have time for, but nope, worked fine when they dragged it out at the trial. Huey is lucky OG Boss WASN'T there cause he would have pressed R2.
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Sep 25, 2015 17:57
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Ekusukariba posted:Big Boss is the worst boss to have I put my name as Hideo Kojima which made the scene way better than it would have been otherwise. Also it means I have two Kojima's in my game.
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Sep 25, 2015 17:59
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I just now realized that it puts your name in Big Boss's handwriting. See, not know what was up for sure, I did my best to recreated Snake's face (I was actually aiming for Solid Snake) and put my name in as "Snake", so my photo just said, "Good luck, Snake" which would fit no matter what.
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Sep 25, 2015 18:12
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Megasabin posted:Can you elaborate on this please? Sure. Well to begin with, before going into what the game is actually saying, "it was all a hallucination" is just as trite and dumb as "it was all a dream," and that interpretation adds literally zero to the narrative. What purpose would it serve? What would the game be communicating by making Venom a hallucination? That theory also just flat-out ignores what the game is telling you right to your face, since there are tapes that painstakingly detail the "phantom" plan - these are very important for Zero's entire character arc, in particular, and so that theory would be A) ignoring the literal text of the game and B) undermining some of the most important bits of characterization in the series. Also the thing with Paz is just flat-out wrong: Snake didn't "save" her, she died because he and the medic both missed the second bomb. The medic (Venom) hallucinates Paz as a way to cope with the guilt he feels over that. Moving on to the bigger meat of the issue: This game is largely about memetic legacy. It's tearing down the idea that Big Boss is some superhuman avatar of war. Much of his success is due to his support network and the men beneath him, and they are literally able to create Big Boss by taking another skilled soldier and slapping Snake's face on him. The entire cloning project that leads to the birth of Solid, Liquid, and Solidus is driven by the fact that Big Boss means more to the Patriots as a symbol / figurehead than as an actual man. (MGS2 deals with this in the form of the Solid Snake Simulation, as well) Venom is in the same vein; he becomes Big Boss so that there is a public face while the real Big Boss works behind the scenes. He is a memetic clone whose false identity is ultimately more important than his skill as a soldier or even his own sense of self. The irony is that the real Big Boss is doing to Venom exactly what the US government did to the Boss - exactly the thing that Big Boss built his entire identity around preventing. His legacy and his vision revolve around the idea of soldiers "no longer being tools of the government or anyone else," and so literally stripping away Venom's identity and using him as a decoy is the ultimate rejection of his own will. Even the real Big Boss has bought into his own legend, and that legend, just like The Boss', becomes twisted and manipulated by the next generation of puppeteers. Venom is the player proxy, and the game is telling you that Venom and Big Boss are now one and the same. You create Venom's face in the prologue and the game immediately strips it from you and ultimately gives it to Big Boss to reinforce the fact that you, the player, are also Big Boss - another phantom, beyond the fourth wall. So you have to ask yourself, if you are buying into the theory that Venom is entirely a hallucination and everything I just wrote above is therefore invalid - what does that interpretation offer in exchange? What message would it be communicating? Too many people think of narratives as something they need to "solve" or "beat." This game is not trying to fool you, but a lot of people think it is. They have a knee-jerk reaction to the twist (as they did with MGS2, which has only recently started getting the credit it deserved all along) and assume the game is trying to be more clever than them. Those kind of theories spring up when people are unwilling or unable to engage the text at face value and try to outsmart it instead of interpret it. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 18:26 on Sep 25, 2015 |
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Sep 25, 2015 18:16
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OxMan posted:When we first got the pod back to MB, i walked up to it hoping for some PW style interactions, instead, all it did is question if it's really you, then begs you to kill it. No AI'd retellings of Joy quotes, nothin. At first i thought it was another thing that they didn't have time for, but nope, worked fine when they dragged it out at the trial. Huey is lucky OG Boss WASN'T there cause he would have pressed R2.
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Sep 25, 2015 18:16
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:Sure. This is very good and helpful. Thanks
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Sep 25, 2015 18:27
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Shine posted:I love it. It has way more depth and content than you'd expect from a Game Boy game and is a stellar refinement of 2D Metal Gear. Definitely worth checking out. It's actually probably one of the most fun metal gears to play.
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Sep 25, 2015 18:27
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Snak posted:I just now realized that it puts your name in Big Boss's handwriting. See, not know what was up for sure, I did my best to recreated Snake's face (I was actually aiming for Solid Snake) and put my name in as "Snake", so my photo just said, "Good luck, Snake" which would fit no matter what. I did something similar, except I typed "Jack"
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Sep 25, 2015 18:31
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zedprime posted:I don't know at what point it gets stuck up there, but if you head up to the top of the R&D strut, the Reptile pod is up there rambling (I think PW quotes?) about philosophy. I think it's the Mammal Pod. Reptile Pod was just for PW to walk around and stuff.
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Sep 25, 2015 18:32
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Vic Boss posted:I think it's the Mammal Pod. Reptile Pod was just for PW to walk around and stuff.
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Sep 25, 2015 18:33
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zedprime posted:I thought the Mammal Pod done got blown up and everybody was amazed at how the Reptile pod was able to take over and still be The Boss. I think Mammal was just knocked around by missiles for a while and it sorta ceased functioning. Reptile took over for a bit to walk it into the lake, but Mammal was still salvageable. Mammal was the one that was a near-perfect simulation of Joy, so I don't know why they'd fish out Reptile. Not that it's a perfect source, but Metal Gear Wiki says Mammal was the one that was recovered, repaired and re-activated.
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Sep 25, 2015 18:37
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zedprime posted:I thought the Mammal Pod done got blown up and everybody was amazed at how the Reptile pod was able to take over and still be The Boss. It's kind of confusing but the Boss AI lets you into the Mammal Pod to pull AI boards until it shuts down, and then the Reptile Pod takes over and resumes transmission of the launch data. The Boss AI then somehow comes back by sheer force of will, overtakes the Reptile Pod and drowns itself, which fries the Reptile Pod and stops data transmission. The Mammal Pod is what gets dragged back up from the lake, since it is essentially the "human" part of the AI. edit: Also, in case anyone was unaware, the names are based on an outdated model of the human brain where the "reptile brain" (the basal ganglia) was assumed to be responsible for deeply rooted instinctual behaviors, which is why the Reptile Pod instinctively resumes its role as a weapon after the mammalian brain is destroyed. Grizzled Patriarch fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Sep 25, 2015 |
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Sep 25, 2015 18:39
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:This game is largely about memetic legacy. It's tearing down the idea that Big Boss is some superhuman avatar of war. Much of his success is due to his support network and the men beneath him, and they are literally able to create Big Boss by taking another skilled soldier and slapping Snake's face on him. The entire cloning project that leads to the birth of Solid, Liquid, and Solidus is driven by the fact that Big Boss means more to the Patriots as a symbol / figurehead than as an actual man. (MGS2 deals with this in the form of the Solid Snake Simulation, as well) Venom is in the same vein; he becomes Big Boss so that there is a public face while the real Big Boss works behind the scenes. He is a memetic clone whose false identity is ultimately more important than his skill as a soldier or even his own sense of self. You made a really good post, but I'm going to disagree on a technicality here. I don't think it's tearing down that Big Boss is a super-human avatar of war. I think it's confirming it. I think that it's confirming that there is a formula, a set of personality traits and life experiences that turn you into the perfect soldier. Big Boss was the first, and Venom, Solid, and Raiden were all successful attempts to replicate this archetype. The problem is, a perfect avatar of war doesn't solve anyone's problems, because war ultimately does not solve problems. But the soldier always wants to use it to try. Because it's what they're good at. So even the most perfect soldier can be convinced that winning a particular victory, or destroying a specific target, will help make the world a better place. But the soldier isn't qualified to judge these targets accurately and if they depend on someone else to choose targets for them, they are open to manipulation. When Big Boss took down The Boss, the whole military intelligence community looked at each other and said "This is the guy. He can do anything. all we need to win is him, or someone like him". He's their John Wick, who can accomplish impossible tasks by sheer force of will. The problem is that accomplishing these impossible tasks is really just maintaining the status quo. Everything is controlled by the ultra-rich hiding behind faceless organizations manipulating the balance of power for their personal goals. And you can try to change this, but good luck knowing more about the consequences of your mission than someone with unlimited resources. If you devote your life to being the ultimate soldier, you are inherently at the mercy of people who devoted their lives to understanding the complex consequences of military action. This is what the real Big Boss realized and how he became the manipulator. Venom's betrayal by Big Boss directly mirror's the betrayal Big Boss felt at the end of snake eater, and is the last piece of the puzzle in Venom literally becoming Big Boss as much as the original.
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Sep 25, 2015 18:44
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I definitely remember the subtitles showing some old quotes from The Boss in MGS3, but I'm not sure where you're supposed to go to actually hear them.
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Sep 25, 2015 18:48
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Something I thought about: the third ending with disarming all the nukes sets up Metal Gear 2, where Zanzibar Land raids a nuclear disposal facility and becomes the only nation to have nukes. Like what if Big Boss set up Venom to die in Outer Heaven, or told Venom his mission was to die, so that he could go underground and run his "real" Outer Heaven in Zanzibar Land?
SgtSteel91 fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Sep 25, 2015 |
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Sep 25, 2015 18:51
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:It's kind of confusing but the Boss AI lets you into the Mammal Pod to pull AI boards until it shuts down, and then the Reptile Pod takes over and resumes transmission of the launch data. The Boss AI then somehow comes back by sheer force of will, overtakes the Reptile Pod and drowns itself, which fries the Reptile Pod and stops data transmission. The Mammal Pod is what gets dragged back up from the lake, since it is essentially the "human" part of the AI. Continuing with the brain analogy, they are all amazed that the Reptile can compensate and provide a total The Boss following the disabling of the Mammal Pod (Just like a real human brain!!!!). Which is then interpreted by Big Boss as The Boss being a pacifist at her most basic level and rejecting her in favor of warmongering.
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Sep 25, 2015 18:53
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zedprime posted:Continuing with the brain analogy, they are all amazed that the Reptile can compensate and provide a total The Boss following the disabling of the Mammal Pod (Just like a real human brain!!!!). Which is then interpreted by Big Boss as The Boss being a pacifist at her most basic level and rejecting her in favor of warmongering. BandanaGate 1974
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Sep 25, 2015 19:01
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Snak posted:You made a really good post, but I'm going to disagree on a technicality here. It's another case of things being twisted as time progresses. The game does systematically tear down Big Boss' legend. This is the entire point of XOF existing - it is retroactively enforcing the idea that "Naked Snake" was not some lone hero succeeding against all odds - he was victorious because he had an incredibly good support team, an entire secret unit cleaning up after him, and of course the fact that all but one of his "enemies" were on his side the entire time. His betrayal of Venom is a betrayal of his ideals, which are what his legend is built upon. Big Boss is a very good soldier, but that isn't what is important about him. His name and image are ultimately more useful than his skills. The point of the LET project wasn't to create perfect soldiers, it was to create an insurance policy in case the face of the Patriots organization walked away. The thing is, that isn't what the clones end up being used for. The Genome Project and the SSS are both the product of yet another corrupted ideal. You are correct that ultimately, it doesn't matter, and that conflict is not the solution. But the fact that they were able to replicate Big Boss in so many different ways, both physically and mentally, is the reason that he isn't some infallible god of war. He is a very good soldier with a very good team and a very good PR campaign. TPP's ending is great because it extrapolates that concept to its extreme: you, the player, are Big Boss. So is every other player. There are millions of Big Bosses. It's essentially an inversion of MGS2's ending, where Raiden throws away the dog tags and claims agency for himself.
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Sep 25, 2015 19:05
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:This game is largely about memetic legacy. It's tearing down the idea that Big Boss is some superhuman avatar of war. I'm actually replaying MGS3 and it's kinda hilarious how Naked Snake's got everything handed to him on a silver platter and doesn't do anything praiseworthy. Single-handedly taking out the legendary Cobras would've been pretty impressive if they weren't WAY past their prime/on the verge of death/crazy with ptsd. He fails to rescue Sokolov not once but twice, Volgin is surrounded by double-agents who help Snake throughout the whole game and save his rear end numerous times and The Boss, as we find out in PW, basically pulled her punches during their big showdown and let him win. He's basically the Jack Burton of the MGS universe.
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Sep 25, 2015 19:07
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I don't think that's really the implication of XOF though. Cleanup for political purposes doesn't take away from Big Boss's abilities. Even in the games, support is entirely optional. You could beat all of MGSV in subsistence mode, using only on-site procurement like in Snake Eater. You can put a Snake (pick one) in a country that has a metal gear and he will take it out. Every. Time. He can also either kill every enemy soldier in the region or ghost through without ever even being seen. These aren't things that he needed XOF for.
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Sep 25, 2015 19:11
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Snak posted:I don't think that's really the implication of XOF though. Cleanup for political purposes doesn't take away from Big Boss's abilities. Even in the games, support is entirely optional. You could beat all of MGSV in subsistence mode, using only on-site procurement like in Snake Eater. You can put a Snake (pick one) in a country that has a metal gear and he will take it out. Every. Time. He can also either kill every enemy soldier in the region or ghost through without ever even being seen. These aren't things that he needed XOF for. This is one of those issues that are inherent to video game narratives, though. If I hand MGS3 to my 10 year old cousin and watch him bumble through the entire thing, getting alerts in every area and falling off of bridges, is that "canon"? One of the TPP tapes talks about how Skull Face was also on standby to take over Operation Snake Eater if Snake died, so it's not like they thought he was the only person capable of the job. I'm not saying he is a bad soldier. He is certainly the best there is, but the point is that it doesn't matter. Being a good soldier means less than being a good icon. His legend is a more important tool than the man himself, and TPP is showing you that the legend is a construct.
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Sep 25, 2015 19:16
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Grizzled Patriarch posted:This is one of those issues that are inherent to video game narratives, though. If I hand MGS3 to my 10 year old cousin and watch him bumble through the entire thing, getting alerts in every area and falling off of bridges, is that "canon"? One of the TPP tapes talks about how Skull Face was also on standby to take over Operation Snake Eater if Snake died, so it's not like they thought he was the only person capable of the job. I'm not saying he is a bad soldier. He is certainly the best there is, but the point is that it doesn't matter. Being a good soldier means less than being a good icon. Well yeah. But I think the point is that the Legend is more important to the politics and the manipulators. I may be projecting my personal life issues a bit here, but I think a major theme in the MGS series is that the protagonist just wants to do their job, which they are really good at and take pride in. And like John Rambo in First Blood: Part II, they want to "win" as a result of their efforts. All the Snakes want is for them doing a good job to translate into winning. The problem is that "them doing a great job" basically doesn't ever translate to winning, and their legend is a much more important political tool, which has nothing to do with them, from their perspective. Basically every Snake beats the final boss, only to find out they were a misunderstood, manipulated, driven insane, or just arbitrarily on the other side of a conflict that is about some other thing that Snake didn't even know about. Every victory is hollow. So yeah I mean we're basically agreeing, just sort of coming at it from different angles.
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Sep 25, 2015 19:36
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Ekusukariba posted:Big Boss is the worst boss to have I think it's interesting that there are only three names listed on the photo. Morpho, Kaz, "Vic" Boss. I dunno. I'm starting to come around on the idea that Venom Snake might be Big Boss after all. Multiple personalities, maybe?
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