How to negotiate offers?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > How to negotiate offers?

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rouliroul: Mar 8, 2005; I'm all-in.

Is there a graceful way to go back on a range I gave early in the process like a dumbass? Cause I lowballed myself

# ? Sep 13, 2015 04:29

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 22:24

Blinky2099: May 27, 2007; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

rouliroul posted:

Is there a graceful way to go back on a range I gave early in the process like a dumbass? Cause I lowballed myself

Tell them you wrote a typo and really meant $180,000 instead of $80,000

# ? Sep 13, 2015 05:20

rouliroul: Mar 8, 2005; I'm all-in.

Blinky2099 posted:

Tell them you wrote a typo and really meant $180,000 instead of $80,000

Gonna add a 0 instead for maximum anchoring effect

# ? Sep 13, 2015 19:36

asur: Dec 28, 2012

I'm not sure if that's serious, but probably the best thing you can do is say you did more research into salaries and give a higher number.

# ? Sep 13, 2015 20:40

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

rouliroul posted:

Is there a graceful way to go back on a range I gave early in the process like a dumbass? Cause I lowballed myself

There isn't a graceful way to do it, but you can always make up an excuse why their offer isn't acceptable and counter-offer way higher. Like, if they offer you $50k and your new educated range is 75-85k, just say that after further research, taking into account your SO's relocation expenses/housing costs/poor school district/whatever, you would need 85k to move. They will probably be unhappy, but that's life. You have a pretty good shot of torpedoing he negotiations. But it's not like you're going to take a lowball either way.

# ? Sep 14, 2015 23:21

Dwight Eisenhower: Jan 24, 2006; Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it.

Dik Hz posted:

But it's not like you're going to take a lowball either way.

This. Unless you're unemployed and running out of money there's no reason to take an unacceptably low offer.

rouliroul, acknowledge your prior low offer as erroneous and describe that you are confident your market value is higher than your initial estimate. This is a strong play for the hole you earlier dug yourself. You might have created a losing game earlier by giving a bad number, but no reason to eat a bad salary for any significant period of time instead of learning from your mistake with this employer and doing better with your next negotiation.

# ? Sep 15, 2015 15:41

Hotel Kpro: Feb 24, 2011; owls don't go to school; Dinosaur Gum

No Butt Stuff posted:

The National Guard pays wg-11 pay to calibration technicians. In the "rest of us" that is roughly 70k a year with federal retirement and ridiculous vacation.

53k is low. Very low. I made that as the scheduler for the calibration shop.

Well I asked for more and they haven't got back to me. Oh well.

# ? Sep 17, 2015 00:01

KernelSlanders: May 27, 2013; Rogue operating systems on occasion spread lies and rumors about me.

If you like an offer generally but are concerned about the future of a company, say a startup late in its current funding cycle or a declining business with potential you'd be trying to turn around, is there something similar to an acceleration clause you can ask for to hedge that risk? I'm thinking something like a carveout a CEO might demand if things looked grim, but as high visibility, but not C-Suite employee.

# ? Sep 17, 2015 19:19

Dwight Eisenhower: Jan 24, 2006; Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it.

KernelSlanders posted:

If you like an offer generally but are concerned about the future of a company, say a startup late in its current funding cycle or a declining business with potential you'd be trying to turn around, is there something similar to an acceleration clause you can ask for to hedge that risk? I'm thinking something like a carveout a CEO might demand if things looked grim, but as high visibility, but not C-Suite employee.

I don't have any experience in this realm personally. It is a sound line of reasoning, but if you're at this point of trying to get contractual clauses to make your decision financially worth your while hire a loving lawyer. Otherwise you run the very real risk of signing a contract that delivers something far less valuable than you estimate it to be.

# ? Sep 17, 2015 19:31

KernelSlanders: May 27, 2013; Rogue operating systems on occasion spread lies and rumors about me.

Dwight Eisenhower posted:

I don't have any experience in this realm personally. It is a sound line of reasoning, but if you're at this point of trying to get contractual clauses to make your decision financially worth your while hire a loving lawyer. Otherwise you run the very real risk of signing a contract that delivers something far less valuable than you estimate it to be.

Yes, of course, although I'd rather have a lawyer review the contract than have a consult about my goals, then draft language, participate in negotiations, then review the contract. That poo poo adds up. At this point, I don't even know what to ask for.

# ? Sep 17, 2015 20:35

KernelSlanders: May 27, 2013; Rogue operating systems on occasion spread lies and rumors about me.

Also, and I know this is a serious first world problem, but what's up with offer with a three day expiration. Do people take them seriously?

# ? Sep 18, 2015 01:42

asur: Dec 28, 2012

KernelSlanders posted:

Also, and I know this is a serious first world problem, but what's up with offer with a three day expiration. Do people take them seriously?

I don't see any other way to take it unless you don't really care about getting the job. If you need more time just ask, though the expiration would raise a big red flag for me.

# ? Sep 18, 2015 06:51

Suspicious Lump: Mar 11, 2004

Hawkeye posted:

I'd like to share a success story about how if you say something, you can easily make a lot of money for a few minutes of talking. In my case, 2 minutes of talking equaled $5,000.

I am an academic was recently offered an industry position. It's no secret that the industry pays a lot more than academia, and when I gave my inflated target range they told me the actual salary they can offer was my real target range.

One thing they did is say that they can't negotiate their base salary, and since they were already at my real target I didn't want to fight for a grand more or something. So, I did what the thread suggests and asked about other things, and was able to negotiate a 5,000 sign-on bonus just because I told them I needed to buy a car and would like a sign-on bonus to help pay for it.

So thanks thread, for making me realize I can ask for non-base salary things if they don't look like they will budge there!

How'd you go about getting a job in the industry? Currently in science and about to being a PhD, thinking of moving to the private sector and wondering how the hell do I go about doing this.

# ? Sep 18, 2015 07:38

spf3million: Sep 27, 2007; hit 'em with the rhythm

I've been following this thread since the beginning, trying to soak up the excellent advice dispensed by Dwight, Kalenn Istarion and others, patiently waiting for my turn to hit the negotiation table and the time has finally come.

I've been with the same company since graduating college 7 years ago. Over the years my base salary has increased by 43% but it is still far below what I could be making elsewhere. The benefits have been eroding (the only health plan option switched to a high deductible health plan but somehow the premiums stayed the same, for example).

Back in June it was announced that there wouldn't be any merit pay increases this year (in addition to some layoffs) so based on encouragement from this thread, I started looking around for other opportunities. After a long search I finally got an offer from a prospective employer for a 25% higher base salary plus a targeted 15% annual bonus and a bunch of other improved benefits (better pension calculation, HSA contribution from the company, gym membership reimbursement, lower health care premiums by a lot, a small profit sharing component). All in all it works out to a 65% higher total compensation package than what I make now.

Am I greedy for wanting to ask for an additional 10-20% base salary in hopes of getting them to meet somewhere in the middle? They have invested quite a bit of time in interviewing me and the position seems to be a tough one to fill since they have had a number of people cycle through it in the last 2 years apparently. The fact that no one seems to want the position makes me question whether I really want to take it or not, but every man has his price.

Also, I've never had an annual bonus before, I'm not sure how to figure it into the decision. It says clearly in the offer letter that the bonus level is subject to change based on personal and company performance so I kind of want to discount its value but on the other hand, it seems to be pretty standard in the industry from what I understand by asking around.

# ? Sep 18, 2015 12:03

Spermy Smurf: Jul 2, 2004

Just assume you won't get that bonus for some bullshit reason like "No bonus' for anyone other than the CEO this year." or "Sorry, I know you hit your targets but we moved the goalpost without telling you."

And then if you ever do get the bonus it's great. But don't base the initial package raise percentage with the bonus included.

# ? Sep 18, 2015 12:51

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

Suspicious Lump posted:

How'd you go about getting a job in the industry? Currently in science and about to being a PhD, thinking of moving to the private sector and wondering how the hell do I go about doing this.

Recruiters and connections. Ask around for a good recruiter that other people from your department have used. Ask grad students that have gone into industry for contacts. Update your Linked-In account.

If you're still in school, go to your preferred industry's next trade show or convention. Present as many posters as you can, and talk to everyone that stops by your poster. Treat every conversation as a job interview. I've hired a (Master's level) person from a poster session because I was impressed by their thorough knowledge of the methodology I need.

But, all my PhD hires have been through a recruiter.

Saint Fu posted:

Am I greedy for wanting to ask for an additional 10-20% base salary in hopes of getting them to meet somewhere in the middle? They have invested quite a bit of time in interviewing me and the position seems to be a tough one to fill since they have had a number of people cycle through it in the last 2 years apparently. The fact that no one seems to want the position makes me question whether I really want to take it or not, but every man has his price.

Absolutely not. You should always ask for more. If asking for more money winds up being a negative thing, it's a deal-killing red flag.

Saint Fu posted:

Also, I've never had an annual bonus before, I'm not sure how to figure it into the decision. It says clearly in the offer letter that the bonus level is subject to change based on personal and company performance so I kind of want to discount its value but on the other hand, it seems to be pretty standard in the industry from what I understand by asking around.

Any number of things can kill a bonus. Don't get paid in vague promises, get paid in salary. A bonus is exactly that: a bonus.

KernelSlanders posted:

Also, and I know this is a serious first world problem, but what's up with offer with a three day expiration. Do people take them seriously?

False urgency is a common negotiation tactic. Politely ask for more time if you need more time to decide. If they're dicks about it, they're likely to dicks about a lot more things.

Dik Hz fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Sep 18, 2015

# ? Sep 18, 2015 22:53

Guinness: Sep 15, 2004

Dik Hz posted:

False urgency is a common negotiation tactic. Politely ask for more time if you need more time to decide. If they're dicks about it, they're likely to dicks about a lot more things.

Absolutely.

And to add, often offer letters have expirations because companies don't want a contract like that sitting out there open for weeks on end. It's not necessarily to create false urgency, though often it is. I've asked and waited past offer expiration dates, and if you're a skilled professional, are polite, and the company is not a bag of dicks they'll happily write up a new one if the previous one expired.

It is not at all uncommon for negotiations to last weeks or even months in the high end professional/managerial world. When you're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars, potentially complicated bonus and benefits structures, intellectual property clauses, etc. it is even likely that negotiations will involve at least one, if not several, expired offer letters as figures and terms are finalized.

At the lower end of the market you'll obviously find much less leeway, however.

# ? Sep 19, 2015 01:12

swenblack: Jan 14, 2004

Guinness posted:

Absolutely.

And to add, often offer letters have expirations because companies don't want a contract like that sitting out there open for weeks on end. It's not necessarily to create false urgency, though often it is. I've asked and waited past offer expiration dates, and if you're a skilled professional, are polite, and the company is not a bag of dicks they'll happily write up a new one if the previous one expired.

It is not at all uncommon for negotiations to last weeks or even months in the high end professional/managerial world. When you're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars, potentially complicated bonus and benefits structures, intellectual property clauses, etc. it is even likely that negotiations will involve at least one, if not several, expired offer letters as figures and terms are finalized.

At the lower end of the market you'll obviously find much less leeway, however.

I'll chime in my experience. When I hire someone, I want to close the deal as soon as possible for a multitude of reasons. First of all, I just fought tooth and nail to get budget to hire someone. I want to close the deal before my budget team rethinks the hiring action. Secondly, I don't want the candidate to shop around. Third, if I actually get a hiring action approved, it's because I'm absolutely desperate for the help. As a result, I give a deadline (usually a week). It's not firm, but it's a tremendous pain in my rear end to have an open requisition and unallocated personnel budget, so asking for more time without a good reason really pisses me off. It probably won't cost you the job, though. Probably...

# ? Sep 19, 2015 02:03

Hawkeye: Jun 2, 2003

Suspicious Lump posted:

How'd you go about getting a job in the industry? Currently in science and about to being a PhD, thinking of moving to the private sector and wondering how the hell do I go about doing this.

I'll say everything I did that ended in a job offer. The only other thing I can suggest that I've heard works for some, but not for me, is using LinkedIn to find connections (or go to networking things - Boston has biotech Tuesday's for example where you can go meet people). For LinkedIn, ask them to meet for coffee to chat about moving from academia to biotech, and do this before a job opens so when one does you can ask them to forward your resume along. I asked 2 people I met to forward my resume along, once it led to an in-person interview and once nothing.

Like those LinkedIn less-personal connections, I found out by searching for second degree connections to a company that my good friend from undergrad had an uncle that worked in big pharma. So, I asked my friend to introduce me to him so we could chat about industry vs academia. After a good lunch meeting, he told me if I saw an interesting position to let him know. I did, he got my resume, that job went nowhere, but he had some other lab head friends looking for temp workers and he passed my resume along. Interviewed with one, was eventually offered the position, but holy poo poo temp work is awful conditions and I wasn't desperate, so cancelled. It can work for people though to go temping to get that critical first industry experience.

I actually had good success interviewing for Europe biotech jobs, if that's something you are interested in. Ended up interviewing/being offered positions in Sweden/UK. These were literally applying on major pharma websites. Keep in mind a smaller biotech likely can't pay for visas. Sweden would have been great if there weren't issues with my wife working. They actually have tax breaks for recruiting scientists there so the taxes aren't as bad for your first 3 years. The UK we ended up finding out pays very poorly in comparison to here (I was offered the equivalent of $60,000). But, if you don't have huge student loan debt to worry about like my wife and I it could probably work. As a note, going the international route likely requires you to come from a very well known school. At one point during the in-person interview in sweden I literally asked her why she would fly someone over from the states to interview, and she said that part of it indeed was coming from an extremely well known and regarded school.

The job I actually took? My post doc friend was shared between two labs before getting her professorship. One of her old PI's moved to a company, and he asked her for names of people thinking of going to industry and working in my field. So, I got a direct referral to the hiring manager from a real friend, and that's the job I ended up taking.

So other than overseas, it seems breaking into industry really can be who you know.

On the bright side, I know someone from a lab down the hall who got headhunted by Novartis simply because she listed CyTOF as a skill on her LinkedIn page. So it's not a requirement to know someone, but it sure as hell will make the process much quicker.

Hawkeye fucked around with this message at 03:47 on Sep 19, 2015

# ? Sep 19, 2015 03:43

Kalenn Istarion: Nov 2, 2012; Maybe Senpai will finally notice me now that I've dropped :fivebux: on this snazzy av

Guinness posted:

Absolutely.

And to add, often offer letters have expirations because companies don't want a contract like that sitting out there open for weeks on end. It's not necessarily to create false urgency, though often it is. I've asked and waited past offer expiration dates, and if you're a skilled professional, are polite, and the company is not a bag of dicks they'll happily write up a new one if the previous one expired.

It is not at all uncommon for negotiations to last weeks or even months in the high end professional/managerial world. When you're talking hundreds of thousands of dollars, potentially complicated bonus and benefits structures, intellectual property clauses, etc. it is even likely that negotiations will involve at least one, if not several, expired offer letters as figures and terms are finalized.

At the lower end of the market you'll obviously find much less leeway, however.

Anecdotally, I have been in negotiations with a company for about 2 months now as we hash out compensation in light of various complicating factors on both sides. Mostly their issues which means my number keeps increasing :v:

# ? Sep 19, 2015 07:33

spf3million: Sep 27, 2007; hit 'em with the rhythm

Dik Hz posted:

Any number of things can kill a bonus. Don't get paid in vague promises, get paid in salary. A bonus is exactly that: a bonus.

Yeah this is how I'm approaching it. Good call

# ? Sep 20, 2015 17:19

spf3million: Sep 27, 2007; hit 'em with the rhythm

When replying to an offer with a counter, should I include justification why I'm asking for more? I'm having a hard time figuring out how to word my email response.

I feel like the current offer is pretty reasonable for the industry (maybe even generous when all of the benefits are included) so I don't really have much to justify asking for more on that front. I do, however, think I have some good leverage due to the following:

1) it's taken almost 3 months of talks/interviews to get to the point of them giving me an official offer
2) they are desperate to fill this position since it's been vacant for almost 6 months with the previous person reluctantly carrying on the bare minimum while she's focusing on her new role
3) I have a personal recommendation from a current employee who would be working at a similar level position
4) They know that this position wasn't my first choice out of the positions I applied for with them. I made a bigger deal about this than it really is, but they know I've been skeptical from the very beginning
5) I have a compelling offer from my current company to take a new role which would still pay less than the new company's initial offer but it's significantly more than I make now
6) The job is on the other side of the country so being away from family feels like a reason to ask for more (a generous relocation package is included in the offer already so moving costs aren't a concern)

Right now I'm leaning toward going with something along the lines of, "Thank you for the offer. [several sentences about my enthusiasm for the company and how my experience would be a beneficial addition to the organization]. After considering our discussions regarding the position and what my responsibilities would be in the new role, my family and I would feel more comfortable with a base salary of $X+25%. This would give us the piece of mind to move so far away from our families to take a position which might not have been my first choice. I am excited about the career possibilities working for [COMPANY] has to offer. I hope that this modest increase in pay will be agreeable and look forward to getting started as soon as possible."

Reading it over, I think I'll probably ditch the italicized sentence. They know what my hesitations are already, it comes off a little whiny. Hate to start off on that foot. Thoughts?

# ? Sep 22, 2015 13:32

George H.W. Cunt: Oct 6, 2010

Keep the line, ditch the "not first choice"

# ? Sep 22, 2015 15:53

asur: Dec 28, 2012

Don't include a justification unless it's based on the value you bring to the company. The company doesn't care about your personal situation and it shouldn't be relevant to how much you're paid.

# ? Sep 22, 2015 16:25

Dwight Eisenhower: Jan 24, 2006; Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it.

Exude confidence and talk about them, not you. They want to pay you more because you're worth more and will make them more money.

You circumstances and hesitations and preferences are not relevant to their business, and by not talking about them you are demonstrating that you know that.

# ? Sep 22, 2015 21:00

spf3million: Sep 27, 2007; hit 'em with the rhythm

Thanks for the advice everyone. Still waiting on the details of their relocation package before countering. I'll report back with the outcome to (hopefully) add to the running tally sheet of successful negotiations in this thread.

# ? Sep 23, 2015 13:19

KernelSlanders: May 27, 2013; Rogue operating systems on occasion spread lies and rumors about me.

KernelSlanders posted:

Also, and I know this is a serious first world problem, but what's up with offer with a three day expiration. Do people take them seriously?

Dik Hz posted:

False urgency is a common negotiation tactic. Politely ask for more time if you need more time to decide. If they're dicks about it, they're likely to dicks about a lot more things.

Update for those following along: They, at least, did take it seriously, although I told them I wasn't going to. Yes they were dicks about it, and several other details of the negotiation. I got calls from their HR trying to close in the middle of the night. I ended up killing the deal.

# ? Sep 24, 2015 05:12

Hotel Kpro: Feb 24, 2011; owls don't go to school; Dinosaur Gum

A Kpro posted:

Well I asked for more and they haven't got back to me. Oh well.

So they got back to me and offered a reasonable salary this time. I'm hoping to stack it against something tomorrow when I have another interview.

# ? Sep 24, 2015 23:40

Virigoth: Apr 28, 2009; Corona rules everything around me
C.R.E.A.M. get the virus
In the ICU y'all......

At my current job I was recruited by the manager for the DevOps team from my position as a QA person for the same team. Looking at standard salaries for my area, our remote office area, and Glassdoor salaries for the company I expected to get an offer in the range of around 85-90k a year. When I got my offer letter today it was for 70k which is significantly less than I anticipated. This was a job req that was created especially for me and this transfer. I'd love some critique on my reply to the offer letter below:

Hello HR person,

Thank you so much for the offer. I'm pleased that Development wants me to come work with them from my current team, although I was suprised and disappointed to see the proposed salary offer of $70,000 was well below what the current market salary in the area is. Given the change of duties in the new department I would need to see an improved offer before I would be able to accept.

When we talked on the phone you mentioned that the salary was based on my lack of experience in a development position, but the DevOps team is unique in the cominbation of Development and Operations duties that the members perform. When talking with Manager a lot of the duties we discussed revolved around the Operations side of the work and that the Development side could easily be taught to me over time and incorporated into my duties. With my two years of knowledge of COMPANY solution, certifications, incident management experience, minimal training to be productive, and the relationships I have with many of the 120 LOCATION based Developers I would be supporting as the only onsite DevOps person I feel that the salary range was below the necessary price point for the job that was discussed.

I look forward to coming over to the team with Manager and to a counter-proposal which addresses the points I've outlined above. I'm very excited about the Oct 1st start date.

Best,

Virigoth

I have a working relationship with this team that is great but I don't know this particular HR person. I worry about being to strong with the reply but I am also ok with walking away from this opportunity if needed as I am very happy where I am.

# ? Sep 25, 2015 03:53

Suspicious Lump: Mar 11, 2004

Dik Hz posted:

Recruiters and connections. Ask around for a good recruiter that other people from your department have used. Ask grad students that have gone into industry for contacts. Update your Linked-In account.

If you're still in school, go to your preferred industry's next trade show or convention. Present as many posters as you can, and talk to everyone that stops by your poster. Treat every conversation as a job interview. I've hired a (Master's level) person from a poster session because I was impressed by their thorough knowledge of the methodology I need.

But, all my PhD hires have been through a recruiter.

I've never seen recruiters here in Australia. I guess I should have made it clear where I live but still solid advice thank you.

Hawkeye posted:

I'll say everything I did that ended in a job offer. The only other thing I can suggest that I've heard works for some, but not for me, is using LinkedIn to find connections (or go to networking things - Boston has biotech Tuesday's for example where you can go meet people). For LinkedIn, ask them to meet for coffee to chat about moving from academia to biotech, and do this before a job opens so when one does you can ask them to forward your resume along. I asked 2 people I met to forward my resume along, once it led to an in-person interview and once nothing.

Really appreciate your post as well, especially the international aspect. I do have a linkedin account though I don't generally use it. Most of my schooling has not been at well known universities but none the less solid education.

Seems like who you know gets you places, problem is most of the folks I know aren't in the private sector (and to compound the issue, there isn't much in Australia to begin with).

# ? Sep 25, 2015 04:19

fantastic in plastic: Jun 15, 2007; The Socialist Workers Party's newspaper proved to be a tough sell to downtown businessmen.

Virigoth posted:

At my current job I was recruited by the manager for the DevOps team from my position as a QA person for the same team. Looking at standard salaries for my area, our remote office area, and Glassdoor salaries for the company I expected to get an offer in the range of around 85-90k a year. When I got my offer letter today it was for 70k which is significantly less than I anticipated. This was a job req that was created especially for me and this transfer. I'd love some critique on my reply to the offer letter below:

Hello HR person,

Thank you so much for the offer. I'm pleased that Development wants me to come work with them from my current team, although I was suprised and disappointed to see the proposed salary offer of $70,000 was well below what the current market salary in the area is. Given the change of duties in the new department I would need to see an improved offer before I would be able to accept.

When we talked on the phone you mentioned that the salary was based on my lack of experience in a development position, but the DevOps team is unique in the cominbation of Development and Operations duties that the members perform. When talking with Manager a lot of the duties we discussed revolved around the Operations side of the work and that the Development side could easily be taught to me over time and incorporated into my duties. With my two years of knowledge of COMPANY solution, certifications, incident management experience, minimal training to be productive, and the relationships I have with many of the 120 LOCATION based Developers I would be supporting as the only onsite DevOps person I feel that the salary range was below the necessary price point for the job that was discussed.

I look forward to coming over to the team with Manager and to a counter-proposal which addresses the points I've outlined above. I'm very excited about the Oct 1st start date.

Best,

Virigoth

I have a working relationship with this team that is great but I don't know this particular HR person. I worry about being to strong with the reply but I am also ok with walking away from this opportunity if needed as I am very happy where I am.

I'd suggest cutting the first two sentences of the second paragraph because they come across as defensive/give your adversary an opportunity to fall back and just say "well but as you said, your lack of development experience...". The last sentence of it reinforces your value to the company without needing to make excuses. If it were me, I'd include a (high-end of your range) number rather than just letting it hang in the air that you want some undefined amount more.

# ? Sep 25, 2015 06:50

Dwight Eisenhower: Jan 24, 2006; Indeed, I think that people want peace so much that one of these days governments had better get out of the way and let them have it.

Virigoth posted:

At my current job I was recruited by the manager for the DevOps team from my position as a QA person for the same team. Looking at standard salaries for my area, our remote office area, and Glassdoor salaries for the company I expected to get an offer in the range of around 85-90k a year. When I got my offer letter today it was for 70k which is significantly less than I anticipated. This was a job req that was created especially for me and this transfer. I'd love some critique on my reply to the offer letter below:

Hello HR person,

Thank you so much for the offer. I'm pleased that Development wants me to come work with them from my current team, although I was suprised and disappointed to see the proposed salary offer of $70,000 was well below what the current market salary in the area is. Given the change of duties in the new department I would need to see an improved offer before I would be able to accept.

When we talked on the phone you mentioned that the salary was based on my lack of experience in a development position, but the DevOps team is unique in the cominbation of Development and Operations duties that the members perform. When talking with Manager a lot of the duties we discussed revolved around the Operations side of the work and that the Development side could easily be taught to me over time and incorporated into my duties. With my two years of knowledge of COMPANY solution, certifications, incident management experience, minimal training to be productive, and the relationships I have with many of the 120 LOCATION based Developers I would be supporting as the only onsite DevOps person I feel that the salary range was below the necessary price point for the job that was discussed.

I look forward to coming over to the team with Manager and to a counter-proposal which addresses the points I've outlined above. I'm very excited about the Oct 1st start date.

Best,

Virigoth

I have a working relationship with this team that is great but I don't know this particular HR person. I worry about being to strong with the reply but I am also ok with walking away from this opportunity if needed as I am very happy where I am.

On the one hand if you don't have a ton of experience you won't be as valuable developer as someone more experienced.

On the other hand if they want you to carry a pager gently caress them they're paying for it.

As Tao Jones said, don't mirror their negative input. Give positive input, focus the discussion on those positive aspects. Give them a measurable goal of how much money you want.

# ? Sep 25, 2015 14:04

spf3million: Sep 27, 2007; hit 'em with the rhythm

Saint Fu posted:

Thanks for the advice everyone. Still waiting on the details of their relocation package before countering. I'll report back with the outcome to (hopefully) add to the running tally sheet of successful negotiations in this thread.

Finally got a reply from the HR lady. She had originally promised me a rent supplement when she extended the offer last week but now apparently the cost of living calculator spit out a net $0 for the supplement. She said she felt bad because she promised one thing but had to take it back so she bumped the initial offer by 3.5% to make up for it. Fine by me, I'll take the permanent increase in base pay over the temporary rent supplement any day. I'll hit them back with a counter for 15-20% more on Monday and see what happens. I honestly would have taken the initial offer at the end of the day but you guys have inspired me to ask for more.

e: glad I insisted on getting the relo number as part of the offer. Get things in writing folks!

spf3million fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Sep 25, 2015

# ? Sep 25, 2015 19:03

22 Eargesplitten: Oct 10, 2010

I'm applying for a government job. It's got a listed salary range, and the application requires a "Minimum Compensation Requirement." Should I lie on the minimum compensation and put it higher than my actual minimum?

I know some people are going to say just don't deal with it, but it could be a pretty good job as long as I can leverage something in the upper range.

# ? Sep 26, 2015 20:00

RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS: Dec 21, 2010

So I have a question. Only hypothetical right now but it may not be in a few weeks.

Imagine you've got a job offer in hand. You've looked into it and it's reasonable or even generous for the area/the company and you'd be totally happy with it. Nevertheless, you want to negotiate just to not be leaving money on the table. Is there a kind of rule of thumb for a reasonable counter-offer? I figure getting too carried away (you know, "double it" or something like that) is just going to be harmful but where's the sweet spot here?

# ? Sep 26, 2015 20:45

fantastic in plastic: Jun 15, 2007; The Socialist Workers Party's newspaper proved to be a tough sell to downtown businessmen.

Assuming that both you and the other party agree in principle that you want the deal to happen and there is an actual offer in hand that you'd be happy to sign, I don't think there's a way that a negotiation in good faith could be harmful. In my experience there isn't a good rule of thumb, other than "do your research, then ask for what you want". The worst outcome from that is they say that there's absolutely nothing they can do and you shrug and sign the initial one that you're already happy with.

(It could be 'harmful' in the situation where the other party's position boils down to "we don't actually want to make this deal but we will if they're foolish/desperate enough to agree to these terms," in which case you're dodging a bullet by not working for someone who's contemptuous of you.)

# ? Sep 27, 2015 01:59

RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS: Dec 21, 2010

Tao Jones posted:

Assuming that both you and the other party agree in principle that you want the deal to happen and there is an actual offer in hand that you'd be happy to sign, I don't think there's a way that a negotiation in good faith could be harmful. In my experience there isn't a good rule of thumb, other than "do your research, then ask for what you want". The worst outcome from that is they say that there's absolutely nothing they can do and you shrug and sign the initial one that you're already happy with.

(It could be 'harmful' in the situation where the other party's position boils down to "we don't actually want to make this deal but we will if they're foolish/desperate enough to agree to these terms," in which case you're dodging a bullet by not working for someone who's contemptuous of you.)

I meant "harmful" more in the sense that like you give them a number that's totally off-base and they think you're a moron.

# ? Sep 27, 2015 02:06

Dik Hz: Feb 22, 2004; Fun with Science

RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS posted:

I meant "harmful" more in the sense that like you give them a number that's totally off-base and they think you're a moron.

Do some research and find out what salaries are common for that job in that area so you know.

# ? Sep 27, 2015 13:24

spf3million: Sep 27, 2007; hit 'em with the rhythm

RICHUNCLEPENNYBAGS posted:

So I have a question. Only hypothetical right now but it may not be in a few weeks.

Imagine you've got a job offer in hand. You've looked into it and it's reasonable or even generous for the area/the company and you'd be totally happy with it. Nevertheless, you want to negotiate just to not be leaving money on the table. Is there a kind of rule of thumb for a reasonable counter-offer? I figure getting too carried away (you know, "double it" or something like that) is just going to be harmful but where's the sweet spot here?

That's pretty much where I am right now. I have an offer in hand that I feel is pretty fair and I'd be happy with the number as is if they refuse to go higher. I'm still going to ask for more, probably about 15%, maybe only 10% haven't decided yet. The way I see it, 1) it's all business at the point and 2) no one's going to remember this negotiation in a year but the outcome will affect my salary for the rest of my career as long as I remain with this company. This comes with the caveat that I know they have invested a great deal of time in recruiting me and I don't think they have any other candidates lined up. If I knew they had a line of people ready to take the job, I might consider differently. It's all about leverage and not being desperate to take whatever they give you. If they rescind the offer, I'd be pretty disappointed but there are other fish in the sea.

# ? Sep 27, 2015 15:18

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# ? Jun 5, 2024 22:24

Chaotic Flame: Jun 1, 2009; So...

Saint Fu posted:

That's pretty much where I am right now. I have an offer in hand that I feel is pretty fair and I'd be happy with the number as is if they refuse to go higher. I'm still going to ask for more, probably about 15%, maybe only 10% haven't decided yet. The way I see it, 1) it's all business at the point and 2) no one's going to remember this negotiation in a year but the outcome will affect my salary for the rest of my career as long as I remain with this company. This comes with the caveat that I know they have invested a great deal of time in recruiting me and I don't think they have any other candidates lined up. If I knew they had a line of people ready to take the job, I might consider differently. It's all about leverage and not being desperate to take whatever they give you. If they rescind the offer, I'd be pretty disappointed but there are other fish in the sea.

It would be a huge red flag if they rescinded the offer just because you tried to negotiate. I'd consider that a bullet dodged.

# ? Sep 27, 2015 15:35

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Ask/Tell > Business, Finance, and Careers > How to negotiate offers?

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