OhYeah posted:

I understand the concept of positive discrimination, but it's discrimination nonetheless, right? By the way, I've heard a couple of businessmen say that it's pretty much pointless to do business in Nordic countries, because their prejudices against anyone from Eastern Europe are so strong that any meaningful partnership is out of the question. If you are from EE, you are a dirty vodka-soaked thief. How's that for racism, by friends.

Kajeesus posted:

So a xenophone ensures their own survival by keeping a nebulous unknown at bay, while a racist forces his will on a group of people they consider dangerous to their continued existence? I'm sorry, the distinction really isn't clear to me.

Is it the active component that makes it racism? Is it the targeting of a specific group, rather than anyone who's different?

Grimson posted:

That's just a healthy bit of xenophobia.

Kajeesus posted:

So a xenophone ensures their own survival by keeping a nebulous unknown at bay, while a racist forces his will on a group of people they consider dangerous to their continued existence? I'm sorry, the distinction really isn't clear to me.

Is it the active component that makes it racism? Is it the targeting of a specific group, rather than anyone who's different?

Scherloch posted:

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that there's more than one definition of xenophobia (though the wording might vary between sources). Racism does have multiple definitions, usually depending on context. In this instance, I guess cultural racism would be the most applicable, as it also covers religion. And your definitions aren't good enough because you've pulled them out of your rear end in a desperate attempt at avoiding being labeled a racist.

quote:

The thing is, there's a pretty big overlap between xenophobia and racism. When your xenophobia is directed at Muslims, based on the idea that they unable to fit into our socities, you're well within that area of overlap, and I am thus justified in calling you a racist (you can pretend that I wrote "cultural" in front if it makes you feel better).

quote:

And tough poo poo if it's to simple for you, that's not really my problem. I hate to break it to you, but your opinions on the definitions of xenophobia and racism mean jack-loving-poo poo. I'm operating within accepted definitions, while you're making poo poo up because you're afraid of admitting to youself that you're a racist. So afraid, in fact, that you're willingly accepting being called a xenophobe (hint: being a xenophobe isn't really any better, but I guess it helps that the word doesn't come with as much stigma attached).

quote:

edit: Also, lol at arguing "you can't be racist against a religion". And making racism out to be super-duper bad (I mean, it is, but still), while defending xenophobia with a literal loving appeal to tradition. I guess since Jews used to be barred by law from entering Norway, it's totally reasonable for me to not want Jews here.

OhYeah posted:

Why is that distinction hard to grasp for you?

Double Bill posted:

That guy is KKK Finland. All of it. Still asylum seekers are better off staying in Sweden because he's pissed

Kajeesus posted:

A xenophobe acts against outside forces to ensure their own survival. A racist acts against people who are different in some way because they perceive them to be a threat to their existence.

The only distinction I can read into that is that a xenophobe is a racist who happens to be right.

Xoidanor posted:

More like how's that for idiocy. Sweden does significantly more trade with Estonia than the other Baltic nations (Despite Latvia being both larger and almost as rich as you) and that's partially because of our historical bond. If you think we distrust you, look at how the nations we actually distrust (Like Romania and Bulgaria) are doing, you're not getting a though deal.

http://www.scb.se/en_/Finding-stati...ng/7230/142265/

Kajeesus posted:

A xenophobe acts against outside forces to ensure their own survival. A racist acts against people who are different in some way because they perceive them to be a threat to their existence.

The only distinction I can read into that is that a xenophobe is a racist who happens to be right.

OhYeah posted:

Very good documentary about the experience of integrating second generation immigrants in Germany, or rather the failure of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVWAIKoatWM
I'm sure there are overlapping points with Sweden.

OhYeah posted:

Do enlighten me, what part of my definition is in discord with the multiple definitions of racism that you admitted exist?

OhYeah posted:

I'm just concerned. About things like honour killings, female genital mutilation, sharia patrols, increasing radicalization among the male youth of muslims around the world, rampant anti-semitisim in immigrant communities, their views on gender equality and gay rights and so on. If that makes me a (cultural) racist, then so be it.

OhYeah posted:

You are incapable of talking in a neutral tone and without getting worked up about issues of race and inter-cultural relations, because you have been raised in an environment where there has been no neutral discussion. You have been conditioned to accept certain paradigms as absolute and everything that contradicts or challenges that system of belief is automatically labelled racist. I've thrown Mona Sahlin's quotes around here a few times, in the hopes that someone would comment them in any capacity. You haven't, from which I deduce that you either conform to this ideology or are deeply embarrased about it.

OhYeah posted:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200305/why-we-fear-the-unknown
https://philosophynow.org/issues/80/On_Xenophobia
http://blogs.berkeley.edu/2011/10/10/on-the-genius-of-infants-are-we-really-born-racist/

OhYeah posted:

Don't talk about Jews while living in one of the most anti-semitic countries in Europe.

Revelation 2-13 posted:

I actually watched this and I'm surprised how reasonable it was (considering the poster) - aside from the usual problem with this type of documentary, that it makes the problem seem bigger than it is, because it's (of course) focused on the 'problem', which is completely normal. It's the same for documentaries which focuses on happy-slapping or whatever.

I'm not surprised that people who only have a tenuous grasp of the actual situation and problems with immigration (like OhYeah) would come away from it thinking it's a huge problem, when in reality the documentary is focused on a small minority (a small minority of the immigrant population, that is).

Scherloch posted:

You've defined racism as something that "starts wars", "causes people to burn down refugee centers" and "forcing your will upon a group of people who you consider inferior or outright dangerous to your continued existence in some regard", and at one point I'm pretty sure you claimed (or at least insinuated) that there has to be an element of violence to it for it to be called racism. These are certainly things that some racists do, but they in no way define racists. As a former racist, I did none of the above (apart from considering the other "races" inferior), so by your logic I wasn't actually a racist. Unlike you, though, I have no problem admitting to it.

quote:

Having reasonable concerns is well and good, but most of yours seem unreasonable, if not downright irrational. Honor killings, while bad, are not common, and certainly not to the extent that it should be used against Muslims in general. Same goes for "Sharia-patrols" (seriously, are there anywhere in the western world where these are common enough, or even a regular enough occurrence, that they should be considered a real problem?). FGM has very little to do with Islam (and we're focusing on Muslim immigrants now, yeah?), and as such doesn't belong. It's literally only used by ignorant racist shitheels, and by that I mean ignorant racist shitheels (ignorant racist shitheels). I am also concerned about the increased radicalization, but I don't think not helping or not accepting refugees will help in solving that.

quote:

Antisemitism, views on gender equality and gay rights varies greatly among Muslims, though they are generally more conservative than the average European on these issues. However, so are a bunch of Europeans, so if we can live with Christian conservatives, surely we can live with a few Muslim conservatives as well? In all seriousness, though, Muslims here in Norway, at least, are adapting, with younger generations generally being more liberal and tolerant. People who continually focus on (and greatly exaggerate) the problem of conservative views among Muslims are, however, contributing to the increasing anti-Islamic attitudes and the growing islamophobia seen among the native populations (and the spread of the same misconceptions that you so helpfully listed).

quote:

Yes? Your links confirm that xenophobia exists (and that babies can differentiate between people with different skin colors, I guess), but unlike you, they aren't trying to convince me that it is, in fact, cool and good. They are, on the other hand, saying that it's perfectly possible to confront one's own lovely attitudes, and even change them. You're not condemned to being a xenophobe or a racist forever (I should know, having been one).

quote:

Also, don't talk about immigrants while living in one of the most racist (or xenophobic if you want) parts of Europe. Hell, let's make a deal: I'll stop talking about Jews, and you stop talking about immigrants (and gently caress off out of this thread, as that is all you do).

OhYeah posted:

That's an interesting viewpoint, but not one that I would share. Think of it this way, xenophobia is a low-level reaction and racism is a high-level reaction. Racism seeks to dominate others on the basis of ideological beliefs.

OhYeah posted:

You can't really control being xenophobic as it is rooted deeply in our nature as human beings.

OhYeah posted:

Very good documentary about the experience of integrating second generation immigrants in Germany, or rather the failure of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVWAIKoatWM
I'm sure there are overlapping points with Sweden.

OhYeah posted:

But this is not even remotely true, is it? It is not a problem of the minority of immigrant communities.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/immigration-survey-shows-alarming-lack-of-integration-in-germany-a-603588.html
http://www.goethe.de/lhr/prj/daz/mag/igd/en3146846.htm

OhYeah posted:

Despite my critical stance on radical Islam, one of my good friends comes from the Middle-East and I actually travelled thousand of miles to another country to visit him and see how amazingly well entire communities from the Middle-East have adapted to life in one of Europe's capital. Next week I'm meeting someone I've already briefly met in the summer to discuss investment options in my country and the guy comes from North-Africa.

OhYeah posted:

If you consider yourself an former racist, doesn't that make you oversensitive discussing this subject? I don't know how I could have a neutral discussion about the virtues of red wine with an former alcoholic...

But in any case, you called me a racist and I take offense for that. It is true that I'm extremely critical of the mass immigration policies of the last 3-4 decades that countries like Sweden, UK or Germany have had, but I've never considered my race to be superior or more entitled than anyone else. I don't exhibit any traits of cultural racism as well, I was raised in a Christian family but I have no problems with people from other religions. In fact, for the longest time here I wanted to ask you guys, how "diverse" are you in your real lives? Because despite living in a Eastern European shithole, I've worked with foreigners for 12 years. I've studied Japanese culture and language and have friends among the few Japanese who live here. Despite my critical stance on radical Islam, one of my good friends comes from the Middle-East and I actually travelled thousand of miles to another country to visit him and see how amazingly well entire communities from the Middle-East have adapted to life in one of Europe's capital. Next week I'm meeting someone I've already briefly met in the summer to discuss investment options in my country and the guy comes from North-Africa.

So what have I actually said - besides being very critical of current European mass-immigration policies and their outcomes - that makes you guys think that I'm sitting around the bonfire every night with my neonazi friends?

quote:

I'm not against helping refugees. The problem is that according to various sources, a large part of the current wave of people are from other countries. People that just see an opportunity to finally migrate to Europe, hassle-free, and we have less resources for people who actually need it. In any case, the majority of the weight is carried by countries such as Turkey, Lebanon and Jordan and we should be giving billions to them instead taking in hundreds of thousands of people with fake passports, 95% of whom claim to be from Syria while they are obviously not.

https://news.yahoo.com/finlands-no-good-disappointed-migrants-turn-back-152042061.html

"You can tell the world I hate Finland. It's too cold, there's no tea, no restaurants, no bars, nobody on the streets, only cars," 22-year-old Muhammed told AFP in Tornio, as the mercury struggled to inch above 10 degrees Celsius (50 Fahrenheit) on a recent blustery grey day.

This seems like a perfectly valid reaction from a person who comes from a wartorn country... worrying about the lack of bars and not being happy for having a roof on their heads for free and not being in danger of being blown up by rockets.

quote:

Again, this is our problem to solve as Europeans. To root out these pockets of hate from our communities. But what have we done instead? We have brought in millions of people with their own problems and now in addition to our own issues we have to deal with them too. The deranged hatred of Turks and Kurds shouldn't end up with bloody clashes in the centre of loving Stockholm! What the gently caress does Sweden have to do with that? What is the the capacity for Europe to solve others' problems? Life has gone downhill because we have fooled ourselves into thinking that we are so powerful that we can make the world a better place.

quote:

Where I have said that xenophobia is cool and good? I've said it's a well-known and easily explainable reaction of humans and it is hard to overcome with policy decisions.

quote:

Scherloch posted:

Yes, it's true that a lot of the immigrants are not, in fact, Syrian. That doesn't mean that they are claiming to be out of malice, or that they are maliciously taking advantage of the situation to further their own interests. The biggest group is still Syrians, followed by Afghanis (wartorn shithole) and Eritreans (widely considered to be a shithole, constantly at the brink of war, lacks a constitution and a proper judicial system, indefinite military service). Syrians, Afghans and Eritreans make up about 75% of the refugees coming into Europe, and all have good reasons to do so. Same goes for the Iraqis, Somalians, Nigerians, Pakistanis and so on. All these countries are plagued by insurgencies and unrest, and it's perfectly understandable that people would want to leave to try and seek out a better life in Europe. Those falsely claiming to be Syrian are most likely doing so thinking it will increase their chances of being granted asylum, not knowing that being upfront about their actual origin will probably yield the same result.

Revelation 2-13 posted:

Regardless, I'm giving up with this post, you're clearly very dedicated to missing the point of the problems with immigration. If it helps, your trouble with understanding the core issues, comes from you being completely focused on immigration being the problem itself, rather than what the problems with poor integration are (as well as the causes of it).

quote:

Hopefully, you have by now discovered that the vast majority of mulims in germany are just regular people, who want regular things from life. This is despite the fact that their religion is regularly called a cancer on society, them being systematically marginalized, and them being specifically targeted and depicted as 'problems' or 'terrosts' by media and politicians on a daily basis (which, I hope you can see, naturally makes it alot easier for radicals/extremist to recruit young people to their way of thinking).

quote:

It's good that one of your best friends is black middle-eastern, but it's clear from your posting that your problem is not with radical islam, your problem is that you can't tell radical islam from normal islam from poor-integration from normal social issues (and as mentioned above, you completely overestimate the scope of the problem).

Scherloch posted:

As for what you've said that would make people think you're a racist... I'd say perpetuating myths about FGM and Sharia-patrols rank pretty high.

quote:

Yes, it's true that a lot of the immigrants are not, in fact, Syrian. That doesn't mean that they are claiming to be out of malice, or that they are maliciously taking advantage of the situation to further their own interests.

quote:

I can totally understand complaining about being placed in some lovely old apartment in the middle of nowhere without heating, a working kitchen and neither hot nor drinkable water. I mean, I don't really find that unreasonable at all, but maybe I'm just spoiled.

quote:

Our tacit approval of (and in some cases, our involvement in) the actions of our allies in that area means this crisis is also our problem. Norway flew sorties over Libya, and had boots on the ground in Afghanistan (Estonia had boots on the ground in both Afghanistan and Iraq, so whether you like or not, your country has contributed to the destabilizing of the region). You reap what you sow and all that.

quote:

You've certainly gone to great lengths to defend it, and seemingly deny it being problem.

OhYeah posted:

What "myths"? These are things that are taking place in countries around Europe as we speak. I'm not saying that they are widespread problems (yet), but unlike you I can think 10-20 years into the future. You dismiss every bit of evidence of serious issues with the excuse that it's just a isolated case.

quote:

What? Are they claiming to be someone else by mistake?

quote:

What group of refugees has ever been placed into an apartment complex where there is no heating and no drinkable water?

quote:

By that logic Sweden should pay damages for what its banks did to Estonian economy in the last financial crisis in 2008-2009.

quote:

It's beyond my ability to defend, affect or alter in any way. To deny its existence and significance is utter folly. I'm merely a realist in saying that you cannot change human nature quickly, especially under stressful conditions.

Mordekai posted:

Are European countries obliged to provide for economical asylum seekers?

Scherloch posted:

There's nothing to suggest that they will be serious problems 10-20 years into the future. Please provide some proof (from a credible source) that backs up your claims. You throw around definitive statements like that without it.

Scherloch posted:

The by now infamous group of refugees in Sweden who complained about having to walk for 30 minutes to get to the shops. Turns out that was one of the more minor complaints, and that the accommodations actually were kind of lovely.

Biomute posted:

If you're talking about people applying for asylum on economic grounds then no, in Europe you cannot gain asylum on economic grounds.

If you're using horribly inaccurate language to imply that there is a significant portion of people that apply for asylum under false pretenses for some kind of economic gain then no, that's not really the case, but anyone who does are to be denied asylum and rightly so.

Scherloch posted:

There's nothing to suggest that they will be serious problems 10-20 years into the future. Please provide some proof (from a credible source) that backs up your claims. You throw around definitive statements like that without it.

quote:

loving hell, you absolute loving retard. Did you just ignore everything I wrote? I said they are probably not doing it maliciously, as in, they are not doing it because their evil liars only looking to get a piece of that sweet welfare money, but rather because they think it'll increase their chances of being granted asylum, despite being just as likely as Syrians to get it even if they were upfront about their actual country of origin. Desperation can be a powerful motivator.

quote:

The by now infamous group of refugees in Sweden who complained about having to walk for 30 minutes to get to the shops. Turns out that was one of the more minor complaints, and that the accommodations actually were kind of lovely.

quote:

And yet, you go out of your way to defend it.

doverhog posted:

Someone fleeing a non functional war torn society is in fact looking for "economic gain" as economic activity is a part of life and cannot be separated from it. To deny economic migration but allow it for those fearing for their life is hypocritical and allows the pseudonazis to ask: "why not put the refugees into camps where they will be safe". What is your answer to that question? Should we not allow all humans the opportunity to live where they want and participate fully in society? Why does it matter what country they are from or what their reasons for leaving are?

OhYeah posted:

If the current demographic trends continue, Swedes will be an ethnic minority in their own country around 2035-2040. Now take a few moments to read this: http://www.atheoryofus.net/islam-statistics

And tell me that there is nothing to worry about.

Cerebral Bore posted:

It's some kind of bizarre variation of the welfare queen myth, where a True Refugee has to live in a tent camp somewhere on a subsistence level and dress in rags or otherwise it doesn't count. You can see this kind of thinking all the time when a refugee has the temerity to own slightly nicer clothes or a smartphone.

At the end of the day it all comes back to the need of certain people to invent reasons for why somebody fleeing a goddamn civil war is a bad person that it's OK to hate.

doverhog posted:

Someone fleeing a non functional war torn society is in fact looking for "economic gain" as economic activity is a part of life and cannot be separated from it. To deny economic migration but allow it for those fearing for their life is hypocritical and allows the pseudonazis to ask: "why not put the refugees into camps where they will be safe". What is your answer to that question?

doverhog posted:

Should we not allow all humans the opportunity to live where they want and participate fully in society? Why does it matter what country they are from or what their reasons for leaving are?

Alhazred posted:

Alhazred posted:

OhYeah posted:

If the current demographic trends continue, Swedes will be an ethnic minority in their own country around 2035-2040. Now take a few moments to read this: http://www.atheoryofus.net/islam-statistics

And tell me that there is nothing to worry about.

quote:

You are either absurdly naive and disingenuous. You can read daily news how supposed refugees are not happy with this country or that country. A few days ago someone openly mocked Finland for being a helllhole and how even wartorn Iraq is a better place to live. These are not words and actions of desperate people.


And now think about this: if I forge some documents and try to get into another country like that, I will get detained and prosecuted for fraud.

quote:

If someone gives you shelter for free, you don't start off by loving complaining and demanding better things. Say "thanks, you have saved our asses" and then after a while you ask "how about this little detail, can we fix this, what about this". These are basic good manners, applicable to anyone regardless of their race, sex or religion.

quote:

You have misunderstood.

quote:

EDIT: If I criticize an ethnic group or a religion, I don't automatically hold everyone in that group responsible for the problems they sometimes bring with them. For example, I'm not saying we shouldn't help refugees, we should make sure we only help those that really need it and that want to integrate into our Western societies. We should do our homework better, like the Canadians do for example.

OhYeah posted:

If someone gives you shelter for free, you don't start off by loving complaining and demanding better things. Say "thanks, you have saved our asses" and then after a while you ask "how about this little detail, can we fix this, what about this". These are basic good manners, applicable to anyone regardless of their race, sex or religion.

Alhazred posted:

The idea that refugees should be bowing and scraping because we show some basic loving humanity by giving them shelter is really disgusting.

Scherloch posted:

People who are caught lying about their origin are usually deported, as there are already systems in place to deal with it, so there's nothing to think about. Do you think we just take them at their word? How loving stupid are you?

quote:

Oh, gently caress you. Saying that you don't want to live in some lovely abandoned apartment without a usable kitchen and lacking both hot a clean water is not being ungrateful. loving hell, I get that you live in a former Soviet shithole, however that doesn't mean refugees shouldn't be able to expect the most basic of poo poo in a place they are meant to live for the foreseeable future.

Alhazred posted:

The idea that refugees should be bowing and scraping because we show some basic loving humanity by giving them shelter is really disgusting.

OhYeah posted:

You can demand something that you have right to. As a citizen of Estonia I can demand many things from my fellow countrymen and the government, but when I go to Sweden, I couldn't, because I have neither the moral nor the legal right to do so. I'm not Swedish, I don't have family there, my tax money hasn't gone to support and expand the country and the welfare of its people. I don't expect anything, I don't take anything for granted, and if I'm given something, I'm grateful.

How's that for basic human decency?

OhYeah posted:

You can demand something that you have right to. As a citizen of Estonia I can demand many things from my fellow countrymen and the government, but when I go to Sweden, I couldn't, because I have neither the moral nor the legal right to do so. I'm not Swedish, I don't have family there, my tax money hasn't gone to support and expand the country and the welfare of its people. I don't expect anything, I don't take anything for granted, and if I'm given something, I'm grateful.

How's that for basic human decency?

OhYeah posted:

You can demand something that you have right to. As a citizen of Estonia I can demand many things from my fellow countrymen and the government, but when I go to Sweden, I couldn't, because I have neither the moral nor the legal right to do so. I'm not Swedish, I don't have family there, my tax money hasn't gone to support and expand the country and the welfare of its people. I don't expect anything, I don't take anything for granted, and if I'm given something, I'm grateful.

How's that for basic human decency?