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ConanThe3rd posted:I'm being cynical but I get the feeling he did that as an excuse to use the River Song playbook again. Explain to me how Missy plays by "the River Song playbook".
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Sep 28, 2015 12:52
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MikeJF posted:I did like it better, and it's full of amazing moments, but watching it a second time it's pretty eh knowing that both the Doctor and Davros are entirely acting at each other and nothing we're seeing is real for a substantial portion of the episode. (Although I do choose to believe Davros' sentiments about the Time Lords returning were genuine) Nah, the Doctor went into that genuinely believing that there might be some small chance it's true. He just had a Plan B in case it wasn't.
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Sep 28, 2015 12:54
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ConanThe3rd posted:I'm being cynical but I get the feeling he did that as an excuse to use the River Song playbook again. I just really wish you said "the River Songbook" then.
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Sep 28, 2015 13:02
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DoctorWhat posted:Explain to me how Missy plays by "the River Song playbook". The scene where Missy killed Dr Chang in Dark Water was basically a carbon copy of River killing the Dalek in Big Bang
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Sep 28, 2015 13:12
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2house2fly posted:The scene where Missy killed Dr Chang in Dark Water was basically a carbon copy of River killing the Dalek in Big Bang Except for motive, context and tone, sure.
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Sep 28, 2015 13:40
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Also strictly speaking he became a white and gold candy dispenser because that was the look of the Emperor Dalek back in the sixties comics and the prop designer thought it would be a nice call back in the anniversary year.
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Sep 28, 2015 13:42
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2house2fly posted:The scene where Missy killed Dr Chang in Dark Water was basically a carbon copy of River killing the Dalek in Big Bang Gaz-L posted:Except for motive, context and tone, sure. A Woman do a thing. Another woman do vaguely similar thing for completely different reasons and in different way. WOMEN ARE CLEARLY SAME WOMAN.
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Sep 28, 2015 13:52
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I was kidding really, I just like to bring up that River scene because it makes people freak out even years later.
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Sep 28, 2015 13:58
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The sunglasses are dumb!
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Sep 28, 2015 16:30
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Irish Joe posted:20 seconds. He's already been in the new series. Theres no need to explain what has already been show in the series, its not like its the simpsons. Watch it from the start.
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Sep 28, 2015 16:31
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Namtab posted:The sunglasses are dumb! Yeah, they really are. I'm willing to give them a slight pass if he'll fold them up and wave them around screwdriver-style though.
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Sep 28, 2015 16:44
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2house2fly posted:I was kidding really, I just like to bring up that River scene because it makes people freak out even years later. The thing about the River scene is this episode makes it go from something so out of character to something that kind of makes sense. Daleks having a concept of mercy in the semi-rebooted Big Bang world is actually explained. That's not to say MOFF IS A GENIUS or anything; but ex post facto he cleaned up his own mess back there.
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Sep 28, 2015 16:46
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Sunglasses are cool. Well, sunglasses used to be cool. In tyool 2015 a guy fiddling with his sunglasses like that just reminds everyone of Google Glass. 
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Sep 28, 2015 16:52
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A Saucy Bratwurst posted:He's already been in the new series. Theres no need to explain what has already been show in the series, its not like its the simpsons. Watch it from the start. The silly thing is that they do just that, anyway: the Doctor posted:Davros is the child of war, a war that wouldn't end. A thousand years of fighting, till nobody could remember why. So Davros, he created a new kind of warrior, one that wouldn't bother with that question. A mutant in a tank that would never, ever stop. And they never did. (…) How scared must you be to seal every one of your own kind inside a tank? So, within twenty seconds you find out that Davros is an inventor, a leader, a dictator, and that he is motivated by the fear of dying. Additionally, there are about thirty minutes of conversation and character building between the Doctor and Davros.
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Sep 28, 2015 17:04
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So Moffat has no loving idea how the Daleks actually work or what they are right? Like, none at all. Also why the gently caress would the Daleks care a little bit about Davros right now? Last we saw him, he was their Pet who got to stay in the basement so long as he didn't gently caress with anything that they didn't approve of. Now they're all DAVROS MUST BE PROTECTED again for no drat reason even though well written Daleks have never exactly gelled with him trying to be their leader, because he is inferior to them. Also, this was about the most hamfisted way possible Moffat could have written Davros. Remember in Journey, how there was that awesome little moment where Davros, while talking about the ultimate victory of the Daleks and how all life will be wiped out, did that little motion of breaking the capsule that would end all life that he and the Doctor bullshitted about back in Genesis? How it was such a fantastic moment because it wasn't even something he consciously did, it was just a subconscious little gesture and it in one motion pulled back all of that history? Well never mind that! Instead we're just going to have him liberally requote the big speeches from Genesis! I swear to God the Daleks have not been written the same ONCE by Moffat. The best story they've had under him has been Victory of the Daleks WHICH HE DIDN'T WRITE. Moffat, stop trying to write the Daleks. You fail at it.
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Sep 28, 2015 17:22
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Doctor Who is a show practically defined by inconsistency. Stop being a weird baby about Moffat.
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Sep 28, 2015 17:25
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cargohills posted:Doctor Who is a show practically defined by inconsistency. Stop being a weird baby about Moffat. That's funny I thought it was a show defined by good writing, fun adventures, and the occasional silly monsters.
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Sep 28, 2015 17:29
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Burkion posted:Well never mind that! Instead we're just going to have him liberally requote the big speeches from Genesis! You mean the part where Davros is using the quote about the capsule as a little jab of irony about the Doctor now actually having the power to kill all Daleks on Skaro with a single simple action? "One knife, so many backs...."
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Sep 28, 2015 17:38
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Burkion posted:Also why the gently caress would the Daleks care a little bit about Davros right now? Last we saw him, he was their Pet who got to stay in the basement so long as he didn't gently caress with anything that they didn't approve of. Now they're all DAVROS MUST BE PROTECTED again for no drat reason even though well written Daleks have never exactly gelled with him trying to be their leader, because he is inferior to them. I'm confused, did you just miss the bit where the Doctor comments on Davros' situation or where Davros comments on Davros' situation? the Doctor posted:They don't have much respect for you, do they? Your kids. Have you seen the state of this place? I mean, this is exactly where you dump a smelly old uncle / family pet / genius scientist who couldn't even invent legs. Seriously, how do your boys take it when everybody else has got two eyes? Davros posted:My Daleks are afflicted with a genetic defect. What defect? Respect. Mercy for their father. Design flaws I was unable to eliminate.
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Sep 28, 2015 17:44
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Neddy Seagoon posted:You mean the part where Davros is using the quote about the capsule as a little jab of irony about the Doctor now actually having the power to kill all Daleks on Skaro with a single simple action? Yes I mean exactly that. Use your own words. Don't liberally reuse both the Do I Have The Right speech and the To Hold In My Hand speech and expect me to give you full marks. Or any really, since it was all bullshit on both sides. So I have a question- those Daleks who were flying around and thus would not be affected by the dumb cementary Daleks going zombie on everyone for whatever reason they were doing that, don't they all have that dumb regeneration thing in them still? And wouldn't all of the Daleks deep below all just regenerate into actual Daleks again? Or was this really specific regeneration energy that gives them the power to rise up but not the power to regenerate And More posted:I'm confused, did you just miss the bit where the Doctor comments on Davros' situation or where Davros comments on Davros' situation? No but apparently Moffat was because the Daleks have next to zero respect for Davros. In the Classic Series, true Daleks put up with Davros so long as he kept out of their way, Re Genesis- the moment he started acting against him, they just killed him. Then a bad story happened that made the Daleks robots because it was a bad story. Then every single serial after that featured two kinds of Daleks. Impure Daleks that Davros made loyal to him, and actual Daleks who served the Emperor and didn't care for the guy. The Daleks we have here, as far as we have been lead to believe- though I do admit the situation is clouded NOW if only because of how poorly they've been presented during Moffat's run-are supposedly pure Daleks who should treat Davros as little more than a pet. None of the respect or "DAVROS MUST BE PROTECTED" bullshit. Burkion fucked around with this message at 17:53 on Sep 28, 2015 |
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Sep 28, 2015 17:44
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Burkion posted:So I have a question- those Daleks who were flying around and thus would not be affected by the dumb cementary Daleks going zombie on everyone for whatever reason they were doing that, don't they all have that dumb regeneration thing in them still? And wouldn't all of the Daleks deep below all just regenerate into actual Daleks again? Must really suck being unable to land on your own planet anymore without getting devoured by sewage. Honestly, I hope they do something interesting with this. It feels like the Doctor didn't really win this time. He gave away that Gallifrey still exists, and he gave the daleks new life. That's pretty bad.
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Sep 28, 2015 17:49
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Final consolidated rating for episode 1 is now available. Overnight said 4.58 million watching on original broadcast, consolidated says 6.54 million watching within 7 days of transmission (not including an extra 1.3 million iPlayer requests which apparently still aren't being included by BARB despite rumours to the contrary). Promising signs: This carries on the pattern seen last year of the show putting on a solid 2 million extra viewers on the consolidated ratings week-in week-out. Yes, the raw numbers are slightly down by about half a million or so over midseason last year, but in the current Highly Competitive TV Climate I'd say there's a decent chance of some of them coming back when they aren't quite so spoiled for things to watch. iPlayer views remain steady and among the highest for any BBC show; GMS is on record as saying he likes iPlayer views a lot because they're directly tracking the entire iPlayer-using audience, whereas BARB ratings rely on giving the traditional balanced sample of the population a set-top box and/or viewing diaries to fill out. The AI remains firmly above the 80 mark, which is considered "excellent" for a drama show and where Doctor Who has consistently resided since 2005. The episode also did very well in the USA and in terms of social media engagement. Worrying signs: The opening episode of a series often pulls in a higher rating than the rest (especially one with the Daleks in) as a higher-than-normal proportion of the not-we tune in to see what's happening this year, decide they don't like it, and gently caress off again. This number wouldn't have been out of place in midseason last year and it shouldn't be if the show is holding its audience, so if the numbers start to fall away from here that means the audience is potentially beginning to contract. The audience share is down from last year. In the weekly chart Doctor Who was not only beaten by the traditional sport/reality tentpole combo, but by the "mundane" major dramas Doc Martin and Doctor Foster, and by a clear 650,000 or so, which it usually beats. There's still enough here to worry the easily-worried, but unless things fall off a cliff in the next few weeks then we're still good and the show isn't going anywhere. Take two Imodium and eat plenty of rice and potatoes.
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Sep 28, 2015 17:50
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Burkion posted:Yes I mean exactly that. The whole point is that Davros is taking what the Doctor told him millennia ago and throwing it right back in his face. It's not a quote for the sake of it.
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Sep 28, 2015 17:53
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MikeJF posted:I did like it better, and it's full of amazing moments, but watching it a second time it's pretty eh knowing that both the Doctor and Davros are entirely acting at each other and nothing we're seeing is real for a substantial portion of the episode. (Although I do choose to believe Davros' sentiments about the Time Lords returning were genuine) Well, that's the thing. I don't think it's entirely fake, they're hiding agendas but I think they're sharing their actual feelings.
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Sep 28, 2015 17:54
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Burkion posted:That's funny I thought it was a show defined by good writing, fun adventures, and the occasional silly monsters. All of those were in the episode.
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Sep 28, 2015 17:58
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Maxwell Lord posted:Well, that's the thing. I don't think it's entirely fake, they're hiding agendas but I think they're sharing their actual feelings. Yeah, I'd take that they're speaking in earnest if only to take a once-in-a-lifetime moment to have a chat that isn't hanging under imminent death or a ticking clock for once. Or at least to pass the time until Davros doublecross the Doctor.
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Sep 28, 2015 17:58
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Hypothetical situation: Kate Stewart tells the Doctor "You know, my father always loathed you." and this is just accepted as the way things always were, and is in some way a key plot element of the episode. Would you dismiss that as 'this show is built on inconsistencies'?
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Sep 28, 2015 18:04
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Moffat has established over the past several years a great capacity to "use his own words" - his use of language has been a defining trait of his writing on Doctor Who since the beginning. So when Moffat elects to quote specific, pre-existing phrases in new scripts, especially when those quotes are reframed in an ironic or otherwise redefined context (see "You would make a good [qualitative] Dalek" vs. "You are a good [morally] Dalek"), it's frankly ridiculous to suggest that the recurrence of such phrases are symptomatic of incompetence or a lack of originality. The fact is, the absolute fact, is that Moffat is not a hack. He is beyond competent when it comes to scriptwriting-in-general. When a phrase or bit of language reoccurs in his work, or when he quotes a pre-existing phrase that he did NOT originate, the most reasonable assumption to make, based on past form, is that Moffat made the conscious, weighted decision to play off of that reuse/reframing because he felt it would offer more dramatic or comedic value than the use of a different/"original" phraseology, You can disagree with that decision (though you'll often be, well, wrong, though that's a matter of aesthetics) but assumptions of laziness or incompetence are baseless and absurd. Dabir posted:Hypothetical situation: Kate Stewart tells the Doctor "You know, my father always loathed you." and this is just accepted as the way things always were, and is in some way a key plot element of the episode. Would you dismiss that as 'this show is built on inconsistencies'? As with all "hypothetical situations", this is dependent entirely on what the rest of the "plot" and other aspects actually are. But I would hasten to add that literally nothing Moffat has ever written is as dramatic a "retcon" as that would be.
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Sep 28, 2015 18:09
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So remember that time when Skaro was destroyed?
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Sep 28, 2015 18:10
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Slight inconsistincies with the portrayal of the Daleks is a far cry from that.
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Sep 28, 2015 18:10
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Rhyno posted:So remember that time when Skaro was destroyed? The Witch's Familiar literally takes a moment to explain why Skaro's back. COMEDY OPTION: which time?
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Sep 28, 2015 18:11
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Burkion posted:So Moffat has no loving idea how the Daleks actually work or what they are right? the Daleks do not work and what they are is fictional.
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Sep 28, 2015 18:12
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I think if we count all the books and such Skaro and Gallifrey are actually even on the "number of times blown up and then not" scale.
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Sep 28, 2015 18:13
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Maxwell Lord posted:I think if we count all the books and such Skaro and Gallifrey are actually even on the "number of times blown up and then not" scale. Nah, Gallifrey was only hidden away and made to look like it blew up (okay so the first go-round probably counts as once). Skaro got clean destroyed at least twice. Once by Seven tricking the Daleks into turning their own sun into a supernova, and the other during the Time War.
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Sep 28, 2015 18:14
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Rhyno posted:So remember that time when Skaro was destroyed? The Skaro we saw last week was explicitly rebuilt And More posted:Must really suck being unable to land on your own planet anymore without getting devoured by sewage. They made this one from scratch so I don't see why they couldn't do it again A Saucy Bratwurst posted:He's already been in the new series. Theres no need to explain what has already been show in the series, its not like its the simpsons. Watch it from the start. It's not The loving Wire
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Sep 28, 2015 18:17
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Maxwell Lord posted:I think if we count all the books and such Skaro and Gallifrey are actually even on the "number of times blown up and then not" scale. http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Nine_Gallifreys
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Sep 28, 2015 18:18
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Yeah, I'd take that they're speaking in earnest if only to take a once-in-a-lifetime moment to have a chat that isn't hanging under imminent death or a ticking clock for once. Or at least to pass the time until Davros doublecross the Doctor. I think the key is that even in those moments, Davros is talking the language of racism and purity- "Protect your own", "do whatever it takes to preserve your race", etc. He sees the Doctor as being similar because they're both just fighting for their people, but of course the Doctor has that pesky compassion thing. And again, the Doctor's admissions here are pretty important too. I like how the episode places a lot of the previous self-referential, Implied Attribute writing of the Doctor- how he's this mythological and very important figure- in context of "this is the image I try to live up to, but on another level I'm just an old man in a box." I think that's real, it fits how he was in Season 8 too- he's dealing with a lot of identity issues, of who he really is.
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Sep 28, 2015 18:19
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DoctorWhat posted:You can disagree with that decision (though you'll often be, well, wrong, though that's a matter of aesthetics) but assumptions of laziness or incompetence are baseless and absurd. Am I misreading you are are you literally and actually calling people who don't like an aspect of Moffat's scriptwriting wrong? In any case, the argument is incorrect. "Being good at scriptwriting" doesn't mean being good at all aspects of scriptwriting. It doesn't mean all your scripts are good. It doesn't mean that all your scripts are of a consistent quality. It doesn't mean you don't have little peccadilloes or specific turns of phrase that you go back to because it flows easily. And you can't just assume that every single word is carefully sculpted and weighed, even from authors with less to do than Moffat, as is necessary for your argument to hold. And even if it was correct I'm not sure why you're making it, as it's not like people are crawling out of the woodwork to call Moffat lazy.
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Sep 28, 2015 18:31
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The acting and dialogue writing were good in both parts, and the episodes LOOKED really good. The Dalek city looked awesomely retro-weird, and the sewers were a cool idea, though perhaps one that should have been set up earlier. HOWEVER, the pacing was weird, and there really wasn't a smooth jump from one episode to the other. I feel like watching this again on streaming will make it stand out even more. Why do a cheesy cliffhanger, and then not resolve that moment until the end of the next episode? I don't understand. MOFFAT. UGH. I never know whether to defend him or rail against him.
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Sep 28, 2015 18:31
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Burkion posted:No but apparently Moffat was because the Daleks have next to zero respect for Davros. They locked him away like a smelly uncle. The only reason they're protecting him is because he is attached to them via the wire thingy. The whole "mercy"-aspect implies that the daleks always had a defect because their creator has a defect: the concept of mercy. You may disagree with Moffat's decision to introduce this element based on some classic Doctor Who episodes, but that doesn't make it automatically bad. It's just a different approach to daleks. Basically, Davros' survival is turned from a pure indulgence into a case of faulty wiring. It's also not entirely clear if the stuff he says is actually completely true. Davros clearly had the plan to give the daleks and himself new power. Maybe they just wanted to protect him so their plan wouldn't fail. The daleks have been kind of screwed for a while now, after all.
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Sep 28, 2015 18:38
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