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botany posted:Finland also has fairly low income inequality. Poverty doesn't explain American mass shootings. American mass murderers come from a variety of economic backgrounds. Vice Zoomler Aestro posted:Gun culture and legislation is an important difference. Finland still has far more strict gun laws than the United States - they require a license for each gun, required safe storage, and they do not permit open or concealed carry unless the gun is being transported to a place of storage or use. They also require a reason for acquiring a license, and do NOT accept self-defense. Gun culture and gun laws I agree have a big effect on accidental shootings, killing for profit and domestic violence but I don't see how it's going to stop a spree killer. I don't think being a responsible gun owner comes into the equation when a person decides to go on a killing spree. For the record my personal belief is that every single weapon on the earth from guns to decorative katanas should be shot into the sun.
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Oct 2, 2015 09:39
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Funky See Funky Do posted:For the record my personal belief is that every single weapon on the earth from guns to decorative katanas should be shot into the sun.
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Oct 2, 2015 09:44
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Finally watched Obama's speech. If he's this visibly shaken now, how is he going to be during the five more of these or so before his presidency is over, statistically speaking?
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Oct 2, 2015 09:52
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Why is it that it's a mass shooting, but the person who does it is a spree shooter? You never hear them called mass shooters, and these incidents are never called shooting sprees.
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Oct 2, 2015 09:53
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Funky See Funky Do posted:Poverty doesn't explain American mass shootings. American mass murderers come from a variety of economic backgrounds. That’s why, honestly, claims that 'it's mental illness' are also wrong. Most mentally ill people are not a danger. It's the angry people that are. And how do you take out anger from the equation? You can't.
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Oct 2, 2015 10:01
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Dead Reckoning posted:That argument falls apart when you start looking at the rest of the world. Brazil has strict licensing and ownership, and bans carry outside the home, so they must have a mature gun culture... Oh wait, they have one of the highest homicide rates on the planet.
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Oct 2, 2015 10:02
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Volcott posted:Why is it that it's a mass shooting, but the person who does it is a spree shooter? This is getting absurd and abstract but I wonder if it'd make a dent in the stats if the media used the word murderer instead of shooter or killer. To me the word shooter is kind of detached from what's going on. You can use shoot in a lot of contexts that aren't negative at all. Killer almost has a cool vibe to it "That concert was killer!". We don't really use murderer in any kind of positive context though.
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Oct 2, 2015 10:03
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Funky See Funky Do posted:Gun culture and gun laws I agree have a big effect on accidental shootings, killing for profit and domestic violence but I don't see how it's going to stop a spree killer. I don't think being a responsible gun owner comes into the equation when a person decides to go on a killing spree. In Finland, when applying for a handgun permit, the applicant must be 20 years of age (and so, has gotten out of school), is audited personally to gauge whether he or she is fit for owning a gun, and also must either fill a 200+-question quiz that also gauges his fitness, or alternatively, must submit a doctor's or a psychiatrist's statement about his or her mental health. Applicant also must have proof (such as a statement from his gun instructor or records from his gun club) of an active shooting hobby that has lasted minimum of 2 years. The first permit is also temporary. I'm not up to speed on American gun laws, but my assessment is that in many states, you can buy a gun simply after presenting an ID. I think one of these systems does a much better job at preventing shootings that happen on a whim, such as husbands deciding to shoot their soon-to-be-ex-wives and so on. Yet as a Finn, I don't feel like our system is draconian and repressive. People still own guns here even if they have to inconvenience themselves before buying one (gasp!) edit; now I notice I read your post wrong which makes the last paragraph of my post kinda dumb as a response to it. whoops 
Trogdos! fucked around with this message at 10:51 on Oct 2, 2015 |
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Oct 2, 2015 10:47
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Funky See Funky Do posted:Poverty doesn't explain American mass shootings. American mass murderers come from a variety of economic backgrounds.
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Oct 2, 2015 10:47
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Dead Reckoning posted:That argument falls apart when you start looking at the rest of the world. Brazil has strict licensing and ownership, and bans carry outside the home, so they must have a mature gun culture... Oh wait, they have one of the highest homicide rates on the planet. Also, I object to the idea that a government which demands its citizens provide a good reason why they should be allowed to do things is "mature." Only if you assume the legislation CREATED the culture rather than was the RESULT of the culture. I put "mature" in quotations for lack of a better word. It is clear they place a greater value on instituting safety as the chief concern in gun ownership due to a clear cultural disdain for gun violence. And before anyone suggests it, I'm not suggesting other countries LOVE gun violence, but I don't think you'll hear quite as many people stating "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" in Finland or Switzerland. Brazil also is quite accepting of the notion of guns for self-defense. Their gun restrictions were instituted only a decade ago in response to a high rate of gun violence. And roughly half of Brazil's guns are owned illegally, which to little surprise are far more likely to contribute to gun violence. Object away. It sounds pretty reasonable to me that a nation whose gun culture largely opposes the idea of buying a gun to use against human beings has fewer incidents of people using guns to harm human beings. I'm not meaning to suggest gun culture exists in a vacuum either though. Brazil can't simply hope to implant Finland (or whoever's) gun laws and expect the same results, because as JT Jag mentions, Brazil has quite a bit of violence, especially around Rio de Janeiro. Gun culture obviously is heavily tied to culture in general. My apologies for such a vague statement. Which brings me to... Funky See Funky Do posted:Poverty doesn't explain American mass shootings. American mass murderers come from a variety of economic backgrounds. America's gun situation is certainly unique. I think there are a number of legislative changes that would help lower gun violence, but I am very skeptical of their ability to prevent mass shootings in particular. I don't have a clue what identifiers could possibly be used to prevent mass shootings.
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Oct 2, 2015 10:57
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Just to something to add to that, their was a study that split people into 4 different personality groups. They were intelligent and social, regular social, intelligent introvert, and regular introvert. The results of the study showed that the only group that experienced extreme under performance were the regular introverts. If your society is set up so that it seems to doom a large segment of it merely for having a personality type you shouldnt be surprised when they start doing crazy poo poo.
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Oct 2, 2015 10:59
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Funky See Funky Do posted:This is getting absurd and abstract but I wonder if it'd make a dent in the stats if the media used the word murderer instead of shooter or killer. To me the word shooter is kind of detached from what's going on. You can use shoot in a lot of contexts that aren't negative at all. Killer almost has a cool vibe to it "That concert was killer!". We don't really use murderer in any kind of positive context though.
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Oct 2, 2015 11:14
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In all these cases of mass shootings there has never really been a law-abiding-good guy that is part of a well-regulated-militia with his own firearm to stop a shooting before/during/after it starts so i'm not super sold on people just needing to carry one all the time as some kind of personal protection. The shooter will always have the element of surprise.
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Oct 2, 2015 11:14
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afeelgoodpoop posted:The type of people who are depressed and end up committing suicide typically have a fault where they find difficult choices overwhelming. The way society in Ameica is set up is what I'd consider fairly trackless, especially with how much more and more over the years simply doing what your father does for a living isn't possible. I can see that, if these spree shootings are just suicidal spectacles, they are mostly young men who feel like they are at a deadend and simply crippled in ability to make the right choices to get out of it. There was an article going around the last time this happened that made the argument that these acts are less suicides/murders and more failed rebellions that I think has some merit. That's the point I'm trying to get at without explicitly saying it. Like everyone points out the common thread with these murderers is disenfranchisement. Be it social, economic or both. They don't feel like they belong (and actually don't belong according to the tenets of their society), are actively rejected by or they themselves reject the society they live in. Most of all whenever you read the things they say you get this overwhelming sense of powerlessness to change their situations. Well, how do you get power in America? Who, in American culture is held up as the epitome of a powerful agent of change? It's a rugged individual that goes his own way and has a gun to help him do it. Cops that take the law into their own hands and gun down criminal scum? Heroes. Cowboy that's having a problem with a corrupt sheriff? He picks up a gun and shoots his way to freedom. He doesn't play by the rules but by God he gets things done!
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Oct 2, 2015 11:24
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One side says gun control is the silver bullet, while the other says expanding mental health services is the answer. (Also, I guess there are some fence-sitters who think it should be a combination of both approaches, but they're clearly insane.) In the end, we argue for awhile but make no progress on either front. Unless I'm terribly mistaken, the gun control set agrees that more dollars for mental health services couldn't hurt. Given there's no one on the other side of that particular issue, we should allocate additional funding and see where it gets us. Personally, I'd love to see universal background checks become a thing. I wouldn't even particularly mind a registration program, as long as we didn't take the Feinstein route and start banning certain guns outright just because they look scary. But it's simply not going to get through congress in the year of our lord 2015.
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Oct 2, 2015 11:27
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infraboy posted:In all these cases of mass shootings there has never really been a law-abiding-good guy that is part of a well-regulated-militia with his own firearm to stop a shooting before/during/after it starts so i'm not super sold on people just needing to carry one all the time as some kind of personal protection. The shooter will always have the element of surprise. That were a couple where an armed guy heading into a building full of people were stopped by a guy with a gun. The problem, though, is that mass shooters aren't just going on a rampage on the spot. They specifically pick where to murder people based on ability to ambush a large and unarmed group. That's why nobody shoots up a Walmart, they target, eg, schools, where carrying a gun is illegal and therefore nobody law-abiding is armed.
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Oct 2, 2015 11:32
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Blue Footed Booby posted:That were a couple where an armed guy heading into a building full of people were stopped by a guy with a gun. Nope. They shoot up the places they go to where they feel the most social pressure coming from. They shoot up the school they attend. They shoot up the workplaces they work at. They shoot their parents in their house. It's not about "is this a tactically sound place to massacre people" it's "this is where those fuckers are!"
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Oct 2, 2015 11:35
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Volcott posted:One side says gun control is the silver bullet, while the other says expanding mental health services is the answer. (Also, I guess there are some fence-sitters who think it should be a combination of both approaches, but they're clearly insane.) In the end, we argue for awhile but make no progress on either front. Unless I'm terribly mistaken, the gun control set agrees that more dollars for mental health services couldn't hurt. Given there's no one on the other side of that particular issue, we should allocate additional funding and see where it gets us. I'm on the side where I'm tired of hearing people conveniently only mentioning expanding mental health services when someone else is trying to push gun control legislation and never doing a god drat thing to actually improve access to mental healthcare. Or yes, acting like these are mutually exclusive solutions. And I agree that it's embarrassing that putting up a picture of an AR-15 is supposed to be a political stance. Especially when handguns make up about 3/4th's of gun homicides.
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Oct 2, 2015 11:46
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Dead Reckoning posted:That argument falls apart when you start looking at the rest of the world. Brazil has strict licensing and ownership, and bans carry outside the home, so they must have a mature gun culture... Oh wait, they have one of the highest homicide rates on the planet. Also, I object to the idea that a government which demands its citizens provide a good reason why they should be allowed to do things is "mature." So I feel like I haven't seen you explain why all these other countries with tougher gun control laws still have such a big problem with homicide rates and illegal gun availability. Especially south american and southeast asian countries compared to european ones, since those are your favorite goto comparisons. It's been explained to you about why maybe cold war politics and lax US gun laws are a huge loving reason but I feel like you sidestep it every time. So please explain why you feel these countries have huge gun problems?
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Oct 2, 2015 11:50
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Vice Zoomler Aestro posted:I'm on the side where I'm tired of hearing people conveniently only mentioning expanding mental health services when someone else is trying to push gun control legislation and never doing a god drat thing to actually improve access to mental healthcare. Or yes, acting like these are mutually exclusive solutions. We should take action of the half of the solution that won't be fought against tooth and nail by the NRA et al. If the GOP votes against that too, then they are truly Those Fuckers.
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Oct 2, 2015 11:51
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infraboy posted:In all these cases of mass shootings there has never really been a law-abiding-good guy that is part of a well-regulated-militia with his own firearm to stop a shooting before/during/after it starts so i'm not super sold on people just needing to carry one all the time as some kind of personal protection. The shooter will always have the element of surprise. I read somewhere that there was a guy with a concealed weapon on-campus during the shooting; he told someone, I think it was MSNBC, that he didn't act because he was afraid of being targeted by SWAT.
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Oct 2, 2015 12:00
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Volcott posted:We should take action of the half of the solution that won't be fought against tooth and nail by the NRA et al. If the GOP votes against that too, then they are truly Those Fuckers. I can't really imagine the GOP objecting to a modest expansion to health care.
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Oct 2, 2015 12:06
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I graduated from UCC a few years ago. Still live so close to it that I wondered what all the sirens were about. Everyone here in roseburg is pretty shook up. This is basically a town built around the VA hospital and the college was where they went as a stepping stone before U of O or OS. There is really a lot of right-wing rhetoric and beliefs around here. From the semi sane, all the way to a sign on the freeway about Dictator Obama and regular ONE BIG rear end MISTAKE AMERICA bumper stickers. Everyone here loves their guns. I'm not really a fan, but I keep quiet. Gonna be a weird few days, that's for sure.
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Oct 2, 2015 12:28
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The NYTimes has decided that the "Hillary got some spam" story needs thorough investigation quote:WASHINGTON — It turns out that Hillary Rodham Clinton’s private email account, like seemingly everyone else’s in America, was hit by spam sent to try to lure her into clicking on a malicious link — one that could have compromised the security of her communications when she was secretary of state. They also seem to think that clicking on a malware link on a client computer infects the email server: quote:But if Mrs. Clinton’s system was successfully pierced — perhaps in some other attack — Mrs. Clinton might well not have known it, either. Other email accounts, including one for her husband, Bill, the former president, resided on the same server in their basement of their home in Chappaqua, N.Y. No one has yet explained what kind of monitoring systems were on that server, if any.
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Oct 2, 2015 12:33
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Funky See Funky Do posted:Poverty doesn't explain American mass shootings. American mass murderers come from a variety of economic backgrounds. American mass shooting still take place in a heavily segregated society, which statistically correlates with violence and crime. The fact that income inequality is an extremely good predictor of crime doesn't mean that only the poor in a society are criminals. And Finland is a very equal society, and has less crime all around.
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Oct 2, 2015 12:36
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Vice Zoomler Aestro posted:I'm on the side where I'm tired of hearing people conveniently only mentioning expanding mental health services when someone else is trying to push gun control legislation and never doing a god drat thing to actually improve access to mental healthcare. Or yes, acting like these are mutually exclusive solutions. See also the people who are very extremely concerned with gun violence in Chicago, but only at certain times.
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Oct 2, 2015 13:10
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Are you Bernie Sanders? "Guys guys: what if we vastly improve the well being of the majority of the country but it DOESN'T solve every problem everywhere instantly?? We'd sure look like idiots then I'll tell you what."
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Oct 2, 2015 13:24
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Duke Igthorn posted:"Guys guys: what if we vastly improve the well being of the majority of the country but it DOESN'T solve every problem everywhere instantly?? We'd sure look like idiots then I'll tell you what." I mean, if talking about mental health issues after a spree shooting is inappropriate, I think that would be too.
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Oct 2, 2015 13:30
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How about this: We pass laws limiting how many guns you can own and for what reasons? It sounds crazy, like some voodoo poo poo, but it might stop mass shootings.
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Oct 2, 2015 13:31
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The laws must also help curb regular shootings. Shootings all the friggin' time in the city I'm in and its pretty ridiculous.
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Oct 2, 2015 13:37
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Riddle me this D&D, why is it that when we had looser restrictions on gun ownership and a functioning mental health system we had fewer mass shooters?
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Oct 2, 2015 13:45
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DivineCoffeeBinge posted:I read somewhere that there was a guy with a concealed weapon on-campus during the shooting; he told someone, I think it was MSNBC, that he didn't act because he was afraid of being targeted by SWAT. He is extremely smart, wow. That is probably what would have happened.
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Oct 2, 2015 13:46
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"Why do you need to purchase this gun" "For home security, (scary urban slang for friend)" "And you are aware that is an irrational idea, and that statistically you're more likely to end up shooting someone you didn't intend to?" "Yes." "You've been declined for failing the background check and already owning a rifle." And then if there's ever a domestic assault call at the house they take the rifle. So you see, if those "people" can't control their urges they'll end up getting all their guns confiscated! And you'll still be free to shoot your wife when she comes back from the toilet! Gun control can work FOR YOU!
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Oct 2, 2015 13:49
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I don't believe the US can solve its problems with gun violence with laws or better mental health services. There's something very sick and wrong in your culture that you need to deal with. I'm not nearly smart enough or informed enough to identify what what exactly it is but it's there. Any other measures seem like you're trying to cure the symptoms and not the disease. So have fun playing whack'a'mole forever if the best you can come up with is "more gun laws/less gun laws or more mental health services". You should absolutely do those things because they'll do a lot of other good things for your society but they will not solve the underlying issue.
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Oct 2, 2015 13:51
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lol Francis got ratfuckedquote:I spent a little time Wednesday night examining my conscience, as we used to say around the ol' confessional, as regards the meeting between Papa Francesco and noted civic layabout Kim Davis. This contemplation was prompted by two things: first, an e-conversation I had with someone who had been part of the papal travelling party and second, the appearance of E. J. Dionne on Lawrence O'Donnell's show on MSNBC. According to the first person, there were a great number of people during the pope's tour who were simply hustled in and out for informal private audiences. According to Dionne, the meeting between Davis and the pope was brokered by Archbishop Carlo Vigano, the papal nuncio to the United States at whose residence the pope stayed during his time in Washington, which is when the meeting took place. Together, these facts set off my Spidey Sense about Vatican chicanery. more quote:Chicago Archbishop Blase Cupich is on his way to Rome tonight.
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Oct 2, 2015 13:53
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All Francis needs to do is make a clear statement that Davis is wrong. I agree though that the it could have been a set up. That lets the Pope off the hook though and all sides can just believe whatever they want.
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Oct 2, 2015 13:58
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Funky See Funky Do posted:I don't believe the US can solve its problems with gun violence with laws or better mental health services. There's something very sick and wrong in your culture that you need to deal with. I'm not nearly smart enough or informed enough to identify what what exactly it is but it's there. Any other measures seem like you're trying to cure the symptoms and not the disease. So have fun playing whack'a'mole forever if the best you can come up with is "more gun laws/less gun laws or more mental health services". You should absolutely do those things because they'll do a lot of other good things for your society but they will not solve the underlying issue. A big part of it in my opinion is that America forgot that pride is a sin. American's are prideful as all hell for no reason and most expect great things out of their life. These shootings tend to occur after something breaks a person's ego and they can't jive their inner image with the reality of how pathetic their life is. If we passed gun control they would still break down, possibly hurt themselves, but have a much more difficult time hurting others. A sound mental health system wouldn't be frequented by America's U-S-A chanting degenerates who see needing help as a weakness. Besides, that's communism anyway. America will kill itself and every other person on the planet if anything more than pocket change is taken from the rich and used to help the poor.
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Oct 2, 2015 14:01
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Funky See Funky Do posted:I don't believe the US can solve its problems with gun violence with laws or better mental health services. There's something very sick and wrong in your culture that you need to deal with. I'm not nearly smart enough or informed enough to identify what what exactly it is but it's there. Any other measures seem like you're trying to cure the symptoms and not the disease. So have fun playing whack'a'mole forever if the best you can come up with is "more gun laws/less gun laws or more mental health services". You should absolutely do those things because they'll do a lot of other good things for your society but they will not solve the underlying issue. You do realize that laws and culture influence each other, right? In the beginning it takes laws to force people to accept interracial marriage, which in turn normalizes the idea of interracial marriage and then changes the cultural values. You need to normalize the ideas that it's okay to go get help for your brain problems and that it's not okay to stockpile weapons, which you do by passing laws that make sure that people have easy access to mental health care and difficult access to guns. Cultural values follow.
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Oct 2, 2015 14:15
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Tatum Girlparts posted:I hear he has one powerful advocate Hah, I get it!
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Oct 2, 2015 14:18
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I'm sure that this has already been posted in this thread, but I'd really just like to get the colossal amounts of "what the gently caress" out of my system. https://archive.moe/r9k/thread/22785073/ People literally giving advice to and then cheering on a mass shooter on 4chan. gently caress everything.
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