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computer parts posted:What other policies require one side to obfuscate their true goals in order to compromise? All I can think of right now is abortion, and that's on the pro-life side. Are you serious?
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Oct 3, 2015 18:36
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Solkanar512 posted:Like Reagan? Well he wouldn't be able to get elected in today's GOP.
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Oct 3, 2015 18:37
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DeusExMachinima posted:Congrats, you're why pro-gunners will never agree to middle ground controls. Yeah, sure. One person saying something hyperbolic is the reason. Or twenty. Or a hundred of them. Do you realize that politics is full of a lot of issues with people saying hyperbolic things on all sides, and eventually some compromise is reached? Not guns, though.
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Oct 3, 2015 18:39
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Yea you caught us, we were juuuuust about to get some reasonable gun control passed but then we let Random Retard Online say a thing and it just blew it all up. actually yes its pretty evident that gun owners are thin skinned babies with irrational fears
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Oct 3, 2015 18:39
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Yeah, sure. One person saying something hyperbolic is the reason. Or twenty. Or a hundred of them. Do you realize that politics is full of a lot of issues with people saying hyperbolic things on all sides, and eventually some compromise is reached? Not guns, though. Nope. You guys had a chance with the machine gun registry. You blew it so no backsies. But sure the tide is gonna turn any day now sure.
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Oct 3, 2015 18:41
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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DeusExMachinima posted:Nope. You guys had a chance with the machine gun registry. You blew it so no backsies. But sure the tide is gonna turn any day now sure. I mean I don't think you're wrong in the sense that this is how the debate actually does play out in the world as we know it but surely you can see why that's an extremely loving stupid attitude
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Oct 3, 2015 18:42
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Zeno-25 posted:Decades worth of gun-control legislation made in bad faith by coastal Liberals who never handled a gun themselves have poisoned the well when it comes to reform. Nothing will change, death is certain. The only way to counter bad gun legislation is with good gun legislation. Looking forward to NRA and such coming up with sensible gun control to increase public safety. So far all I hear is scaremongering and a complete refusal to engage with the issue.
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Oct 3, 2015 18:44
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Tatum Girlparts posted:Yea you caught us, we were juuuuust about to get some reasonable gun control passed but then we let Random Retard Online say a thing and it just blew it all up. My whole point was to illustrate how my posts would be interpreted by each side with a relatively novel (as in not repeated every time gunchat happens except by me, it is by no means classic). Just because I can conceive of how things can go terribly wrong with policy and choose to illustrate them doesn't mean that is how I intend nor how things would play out. SedanChair, who works with the poor immediately consider the poor. DeusEx, known gun advocate immediately starts pearl clutching. We're never going to end the gun issue as a political football if we dont start trying some new things though. Personally I'm tired of wasting so much societal energy on political subjects that have had plenty of time to solve with the three generations previous since they became framed in this particular way. Here is my reasonable gun proposal: allow us to do research on gun violence, their causes and effect, and until we have such data, local governments should have some way of knowing whom could potentially become a public menace. How thats done isnt important beyond the 4th A. I think that is reasonable if you agree that human lives matter.
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Oct 3, 2015 18:45
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RedQueen posted:"MSF condemns in the strongest possible terms the horrific bombing of its hospital in Kunduz full of staff and patients. MSF wishes to clarify that all parties to the conflict, including in Kabul and Washington, were clearly informed of the precise location (GPS Coordinates) of the MSF facilities - hospital, guesthouse, office and an outreach stabilization unit in Chardara (to the north-west of Kunduz). As MSF does in all conflict contexts, these precise locations were communicated to all parties on multiple occasions over the past months, including most recently on 29 September. Also, depending on who at the embassy was called and who was dropping the bombs, 30 minutes is not long at all. The embassy doesn't have a direct line to tactical aircraft. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Oct 3, 2015 |
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Oct 3, 2015 18:47
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Absurd Alhazred posted:That's not obfuscating their goals, though. In the context of the argument I quoted, it was. quote:A: "Rednecks oppose registries because they think they're going to ban guns*, which will never happen." There's a shift from "the Enemy is just being paranoid about a safety measure" to "They're not paranoid, this is actually what we want to do". *Yes, technically they said "seizing guns" but the difference is pedantic at best.
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Oct 3, 2015 18:53
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Rent-A-Cop posted:None of them were used in crimes before the registry was closed either. To the best of my knowledge the only killing that has ever been committed with a firearm on the NFA registry was a cop blasting his wife with a department gun. I agree, amending the 1934 NFA to include any weapon with a detachable magazine as a title 2 weapon would be a pretty good step. It worked for poo poo like Thompsons and BARs.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:00
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SubponticatePoster posted:Make part of the gun buying process similar to what Republicans keep trying to do with abortion. First, you have to see pictures of victims of mass shootings and audio recordings of the screams of the dying. Then get something randomly shoved up your rear end - you must consent to this or else you're not allowed to purchase a firearm. Then after all that you still have to come back and speak with a counselor twice more with a waiting period of 48 hours in between sessions. Also regulate the stores that sell firearms down to the nails used in construction, make sure the seller has admitting privileges at a local hospital (in case something goes wrong), they can't be within 1000 ft of a school or church, and the name of everyone that buys a gun is posted in the local paper. Oh, and they have to recommend alternatives, like slingshots and paintball/airsoft. Saw this on Facebook:  The post it was in led me to this story from 2013. I'm afraid this argument hadn't caught on. 
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Oct 3, 2015 19:04
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Saw this on Facebook: Yeah a ton of variants on that are showing up on my facebook feed. I thought "hey that's from an SA poster!" I guess not... 
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Oct 3, 2015 19:08
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It's odd that people get up in arms about attempts to restrict abortion through incrementally more restrictive laws enacted in poor faith and without any reasonable basis, but are willing to turn around and do the same thing to people exercising a right they don't like.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:12
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In fairness lack of ability to exercise gun rights is generally not going to ruin your life in the same way that lack of access to abortion rights will. Solkanar512 posted:Like Reagan? He was a coastal liberal wasn't he?
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Oct 3, 2015 19:13
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Dead Reckoning posted:It's odd that people get up in arms about attempts to restrict abortion through incrementally more restrictive laws enacted in poor faith and without any reasonable basis, but are willing to turn around and do the same thing to people exercising a right they don't like. Abortions don't kill people you god drat nincompoop
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Oct 3, 2015 19:13
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Dead Reckoning posted:It's odd that people get up in arms about attempts to restrict abortion through incrementally more restrictive laws enacted in poor faith and without any reasonable basis, but are willing to turn around and do the same thing to people exercising a right they don't like. FAUXTON posted:Abortions don't kill people you god drat nincompoop 
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Oct 3, 2015 19:14
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SedanChair posted:He was a coastal liberal wasn't he? By any standard espoused by the GOP of 2015.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:17
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I think we should restrict gun ownership but have new legal avenues for suicide.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:21
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FAUXTON posted:Abortions don't kill people you god drat nincompoop For one, the pro-lifers whose tactics people on the left abhor think they do, and second, if you think their tactics are unethical, then it shouldn't matter how noble you believe the cause.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:22
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Dead Reckoning posted:For one, the pro-lifers whose tactics people on the left abhor think they do, and second, if you think their tactics are unethical, then it shouldn't matter how noble you believe the cause. Gun violence deaths aren't imaginary, swing and a miss.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:24
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The only similarity between guns and abortions is the massive injustice in how easy it is to walk into a room and forcefully abort twenty people and how difficult it is to walk into a room and abort a lump of cells.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:24
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dogs named Charlie posted:The only similarity between guns and abortions is the massive injustice in how easy it is to walk into a room and forcefully abort twenty people and how difficult it is to walk into a room and abort a lump of cells.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:27
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Dead Reckoning posted:The U.S. hasn't finished the investigation yet, but ABC says an anonymous official claims there was an AC-130 in the area, firing on Taliban fighters who were engaged with U.S. Special Forces. If that's the case, immediate self-defense more or less supersedes any protection the hospital would normally receive under LOAC. I'm willing to accept that fighting in the area that lead to the bombing, and the complexity of military command means the 30 min delay wasn't unreasonable. However I would suggest the US Air Force shouldn't operate in an area unless it can guarantee it won't bomb clearly identified hospitals. This isn't just an ideological point, bombing hospitals will likely (further) radicalize locals. Is the fallout from bombing MSF worth the chance to kill a few Taliban fighters?
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Oct 3, 2015 19:30
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Dead Reckoning posted:For one, the pro-lifers Animals regularly eat their own babies, in our outside the womb when times are hard and food is scarce, but I don't see them walking into a 7-11 and shooting up the place cause they can't get it up. Fuckin' checkmate, mate. * 
Ran Mad Dog fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Oct 3, 2015 |
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Oct 3, 2015 19:30
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What if Obama, after leaving office, declares his one Post-Presidency Focus is to end gun violence, and then he becomes the head of the Brady Campaign? I feel like with his campaigning and fundraising and organizational ability, he'd actually be able to get some poo poo done.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:33
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SgtScruffy posted:What if Obama, after leaving office, declares his one Post-Presidency Focus is to end gun violence, and then he becomes the head of the Brady Campaign? I feel like with his campaigning and fundraising and organizational ability, he'd actually be able to get some poo poo done. After all the OBUMMER TAKIN ARE GUNS chat, nothing would give me more delight than seeing him successfully take people's guns. 
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Oct 3, 2015 19:38
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Nocturtle posted:I'm willing to accept that fighting in the area that lead to the bombing, and the complexity of military command means the 30 min delay wasn't unreasonable. However I would suggest the US Air Force shouldn't operate in an area unless it can guarantee it won't bomb clearly identified hospitals. This isn't just an ideological point, bombing hospitals will likely (further) radicalize locals. Is the fallout from bombing MSF worth the chance to kill a few Taliban fighters? Well, it was Special Forces operating in the area as the lead with the USAF AC-130 acting as support. Even if the special forces are USAF special forces, they do not work for the USAF commander and do not answer to him. Either way though, it sucks.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:39
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SgtScruffy posted:What if Obama, after leaving office, declares his one Post-Presidency Focus is to end gun violence, and then he becomes the head of the Brady Campaign? I feel like with his campaigning and fundraising and organizational ability, he'd actually be able to get some poo poo done. Eh the Brady Campaign has way, way less money than someone like the NRA even less after you add in groups like SAF (but they are mostly legal not lobbying). People seem to be willing to give money to keep guns/change CC laws/keep the status quo (NRA) but not as willing to give money to lobby to enact more gun legislation.   It really seems like the money isn't there currently.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:42
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Obama is one of the most polarizing figures ever. If he wants meaningful gun control passed he's better off not getting involved.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:43
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Zeno-25 posted:Well he wouldn't be able to get elected in today's GOP. Yes he would, especially given that he passed gun control in response to the Black Panthers. If there were scary armed black guys around Republicans and the NRA would trip all over themselves to pass laws that magically get rid of them, and the Republican electorate would be cheering them on. Since minorities can't arm themselves without risking getting shot by police who were afraid of the hulking menace, now gun control is purely a "liberal" issue, but that's only because gun rights are largely white only, especially the open carry variety. I loved the take on gun rights that parodied the Republican approach to abortion restrictions, but honestly the right to vote is probably the better policy comparison, and incredibly appropriate given how the Republican electorate is all about restrictions on voting while magically not giving a poo poo about guns (as long as you aren't brown or black, strange). For some reason showing ID to buy ammo or guns is a horrible thing, but not when it comes to voting, despite there being effectively zero fraud of that type. Moving voting machines, voter caging and intimidation, purging voter rolls, all fine.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:43
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Plinkey posted:It really seems like the money isn't there currently.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:44
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Ban all gun sales from primary vendors going forward without confiscation of existing arms. Destroy all guns used in a crime, obtained through gun buybacks, or that otherwise come into the possession of a government authority. No further importation through any channels. Anything that brings us closer to that position I'm for and I'm willing to entertain arguments towards a more extreme position. I don't have any problem saying it. I do want your guns grabbed.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:45
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Rent-A-Cop posted:The NRA has the advantage of having a shitload of paying members who don't give a gently caress about the NRA but like discounts on things. Maybe the Brady Campaign should find a way to get people $0.50 off their coffee or something. Also the Brady Campaign doesn't have an entire industry funding it.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:46
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Rent-A-Cop posted:The NRA has the advantage of having a shitload of paying members who don't give a gently caress about the NRA but like discounts on things. Maybe the Brady Campaign should find a way to get people $0.50 off their coffee or something. Yeah, that too. I was going to mention it but it didn't really seem important. There's also that whole insurance thing and some ranges relying on that/membership for insurance (I think that's still a thing). Maybe the Brady Campaign can put out a few lovely magazines every month.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:47
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jackofarcades posted:Obama is one of the most polarizing figures ever. If he wants meaningful gun control passed he's better off not getting involved. Obama is one of the most polarizing figures ever. So much so he's passed much of his agenda, because when a line in the sand is drawn Obama stands on the side of reason.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:47
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Right now im trying to reconcile in my head being for car automation to reduce human deaths while realizing that the same technology will be used by the US military to blow up MSF hospitals with the "It's comin' right for us! "Defense which for some reason will be extended to mobile autonomous weapons because it has guns or explosives on it. I guess all these things are just interelated theres no options and we should do nothing.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:54
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dogs named Charlie posted:because when a line in the sand is drawn Obama stands on the side of reason.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:55
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jackofarcades posted:Obama is one of the most polarizing figures ever. If he wants meaningful gun control passed he's better off not getting involved. I agree, Obama is just going to polarize the issue of gun control, which would be a huge change
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Oct 3, 2015 19:55
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mlmp08 posted:Unfortunately, it has become such a dumb, tribal issue that the pro-gun side will steadfastly refuse to do even reasonable things. Doubly so when the great majority of the anti-gun crowd will in no way, shape, or form be happy with just UBC and is pretty vocal about trying to incrementally gently caress with gun rights until they either disappear or become an extremely regulated thing that only the most dedicated and privileged people can get into. One of the biggest gun control acts, the National Firearms Act of 1934, which created the categories of firearms and accessories, restricting the sale of machineguns, short-barrel rifles, and suppressors, and developed the whole regulation, trusts, and transfer system of the ATF, that was created with the help of the NRA. The NRA even compromised on the bill, because its proponents had originally wanted handguns and revolvers to be regulated as a Title II, but they got suppressors regulated instead. Absurd Alhazred posted:Saw this on Facebook: The big problem is that there's already a waiting period on guns and, depending if you're buying an NFA-regulated firearm or accessory, you're paying $200 extra per item for the transfer tax stamp. And, while it's not, I know there's places like California where gun stores are closing because of the gun laws. The only gun store in San Francisco closed down recently and it made the national news, supposedly spurred on due to loss of sales because of a regulation requiring video taping the gun purchase. So, where pretty much almost there in some places. And before you ask, "well, if you want to get a gun, you can go to another state like Nevada", guess what, that's what the anti-abortion crowd has been doing, trying to at least get a return to where states had their own laws on abortion. For the gory pictures and such, the people posting these memes have never seen Freepers bandying about "this is what it looks like when a terrorist meets a .50" e-mail or spent any time on LiveLeak.
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