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anilEhilated posted:Might be just me being slow but how exactly is a video game character's sexual orientation relevant to anything? It's not, this is just what goons do.
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Oct 3, 2015 18:56
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anilEhilated posted:Might be just me being slow but how exactly is a video game character's sexual orientation relevant to anything? Well... when the bad guys of the game are Nazis, who were notorious for having treated (among many, many other peoples) homosexuals utterly horrendously, it can be a subtle bit of character development; like how it is hinted that Blazko has Jewish ancestry.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:49
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Mzbundifund posted:It's not, this is just what the internet does. Fixed that for you. The discussion pops up in other places as well, sometimes with more evidence than others. See: Ellie in The Last Of Us. Other things that game and this game have in common: ZOMBIES. Basically they're the same game.
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Oct 3, 2015 19:50
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Nalesh posted:To be honest I don't really care, I'm just glad that if she is, it's not her entire loving character trait like all the games that claim to be hurrdurrprogressive by having a gay or lesbian character, but make their entire character that and nothing else(Borderlands the pre-sequel comes into mind) Right, like I said it doesn't matter either way, I was just curious. I think it speaks volumes to the MachineGames's ability to make interesting characters. Anyways sorry for the derail, I as just curious. JcDent posted:
I heard that Curtis.
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Oct 3, 2015 20:32
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This was a really embarrassing part of the game during my first play through. When the zombies first appeared, I didn't realize you could kill them by hitting them in the head with the pipe. Cue me running past all the enemies till I got to Pipa's place and got my guns back. 
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Oct 3, 2015 20:46
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anilEhilated posted:Might be just me being slow but how exactly is a video game character's sexual orientation relevant to anything? Media representation of groups that have traditionally been oppressed is kinda a big deal. Or did I stumble over a  again?
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Oct 3, 2015 21:31
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No, I really don't get it. Call me a backwoods European peasant or something but I figure there's no point in having a minority represented just for the sake of having a minority represented. If her orientation played any role in the story, sure, but it really seems completely random here. Then again, it got me heavily flamed in the Steam thread when I suggested Witcher 3 was perfectly fine without black people...
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Oct 3, 2015 21:35
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Why do you care if this is the game depicting a gay character without explicitly talking about it? It's entirely possible she's simply talking about a very dear friend. It's also entirely possible that she's talking about a girlfriend. Given that media depictions of gay people are still uncommon, especially in video games specifically, I don't think it's unreasonable to wonder if Annette was written as a lesbian. Doubly so given how rare in video games lesbians are included for anything but titillation - Bioware, I'm looking at you.
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Oct 3, 2015 21:43
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That's entirely the point - why should you care what her orientation is? edit: Right, guess I just feel fishy about the whole positive discrimination thing. It's probably a minefield best stayed out of. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Oct 3, 2015 |
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Oct 3, 2015 21:59
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anilEhilated posted:That's entirely the point - why should you care what her orientation is? For some folks it's a forward thinking demonstration that video game makers are adding more and varied characters. Rather than sticking with John Q Random white heterosexual male beefcake, you might have someone who represents a different gender or minority. I think there's scientific studies showing the beneficial effects of having characters kids can relate to in their media, Dora the Explorer may be a poo poo but she's Hispanic. With LGBT stuff coming more and more into the fore it's also pretty useful to have a character people of those persuasions can identify. Characters who are realistically depicted, and not Bioware crap. I think they must have had at least one good character but I can't remember it. For other folks it's not really such a thing but then again as a straight white male I'm disproportionately represented in most media I consume. I think it's important to have the wider variety of representation though.
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Oct 3, 2015 22:09
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dscruffy1 posted:Characters who are realistically depicted, and not Bioware crap. I think they must have had at least one good character but I can't remember it. Bioware's central issue with characters, if you'll pardon the digression, is that most people will agree that they do have a small number of genuinely good characters who are drowned out by a much larger number of mediocre or downright offensive characters. The problem is that very few players can agree on which characters fit into which categories. In this case, Annette may or may not be a lesbian. And presumably if you rescue Kessler she dies. But still, a queer character portrayed completely seriously and whose sexuality is only an incidental aspect of the character is something rarely seen and welcome. No, it wouldn't change a thing if she was talking about a boy instead. That's beside the point.
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Oct 3, 2015 22:11
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anilEhilated posted:No, I really don't get it. Call me a backwoods European peasant or something but I figure there's no point in having a minority represented just for the sake of having a minority represented. If her orientation played any role in the story, sure, but it really seems completely random here. Which sounds better: a) more variety in characters b) less variety in characters Likewise: a) more characters that a variety of people can relate to b) fewer characters that a variety of people can relate to If you're choosing b either time than I don't know what the gently caress
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Oct 3, 2015 23:03
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anilEhilated posted:That's entirely the point - why should you care what her orientation is? Witcher spoilers: Well the thing is, why would there be black people there, if I remember right black people do exist in the witcher world, but they're so loving far away by sea that they're rarely seen as high up as the games take place. So it wouldn't really make sense for them to be there, especially with a war going on. But yeah, she's genuinely well written, no matter her sexuality, which is something I really hate about those writers that write obvious gay/lesbian characters in games to the point of mockery while proclaiming they're "progressive", some even using it to hide behind lgbt when they gently caress something else up(bioware) Nalesh fucked around with this message at 23:09 on Oct 3, 2015 |
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Oct 3, 2015 23:07
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biosterous posted:Which sounds better: The only problem with a) is if the writing staff is spread too thinly and the extra characters are essentially what you get from splitting one well-rounded person into eight cardboard cutouts. That being said, if adding more diversity to the characters doesn't sacrifice depth of those characters, then adding them is fantastic.
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Oct 3, 2015 23:20
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anilEhilated posted:That's entirely the point - why should you care what her orientation is? It is a bit of a minefield. I'd say one of the better ways to think about it is to try inverting it. "Whoa, Pippa, that's potentially hetero, commenting on BJ's looks. I get that it's nice backstory, and it doesn't really hurt anyone, but do we really need to get this kind of hint whether a character's straight or not?" Does that kind of thought make you a little uncomfortable? If so, think about why it does - is it that the question is wrong; are you assuming that there is a 'default' and that anything else is diverting from that default; or maybe a third option? The reason these issues are a minefield is that they're very grey, tricksy areas, when there often isn't a hard-and-fast Right Answer. Thankfully, there isn't much to get vitriolic about on 'either side' of the discrimination debate in Wolfenstein - it's far more concerned with the Nazi/not-Nazi divide, and with the shooting of people who feed live prisoners to their dogs. I didn't realise the choice was a choice here when I played, and swung by Kessler's direction first, so it was nice to see the alternate fight and Annette's scene. I think it's a good thing that neither character feels like the 'wrong' choice, that they've both been entertaining and human enough that it's awful whichever of them is overrun and killed.
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Oct 3, 2015 23:48
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Dirk the Average posted:The only problem with a) is if the writing staff is spread too thinly and the extra characters are essentially what you get from splitting one well-rounded person into eight cardboard cutouts. That being said, if adding more diversity to the characters doesn't sacrifice depth of those characters, then adding them is fantastic. I totally agree. I might have phrased it a bit weird, so my point might not have come across correctly - I'm in favour of "characters who are more varied," not necessarily "more characters who are varied." (still not sure if that makes any sense. But we agree, that's probably the important point)
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Oct 4, 2015 01:37
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biosterous posted:I totally agree. I might have phrased it a bit weird, so my point might not have come across correctly - I'm in favour of "characters who are more varied," not necessarily "more characters who are varied." I feel like Fire Emblem works as an example of one of those but I'm not sure.
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Oct 4, 2015 02:31
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Samovar posted:What happpens if you take tea with Pippa before you go off with the waiter job? Not to put the kibosh on the fine inclusivity derail we're having, but someone feel like answering this?
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Oct 4, 2015 03:53
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She comes out of the closet. All her flirting is just overcompensation, because she's British and thus deeply repressed in her sexuality.
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Oct 4, 2015 04:23
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anilEhilated posted:No, I really don't get it. Call me a backwoods European peasant or something but I figure there's no point in having a minority represented just for the sake of having a minority represented. If her orientation played any role in the story, sure, but it really seems completely random here. Being gay isn't a plot device in real life and it shouldn't be in stories, either. I think what this game does really well is leave us in a situation where someone could ask the question, but just like other aspects of her character it resides in her speech and behavior and isn't a bullet point. The problem with Witcher is similar: people feel like there needs to be a reason to put black people in. They exist in the universe, and if it's anything like eastern Europe in the world we live in there would certainly be a noticeable, or at least non-zero, number of non-white people. Much like how you saw straight as a default state and homosexuality as a divergence that needs to be justified, the developers saw race the same way. This is quite definitely a bad thing.
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Oct 4, 2015 05:16
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I don't see it as default, though: even a mention of a character being straight should have a reason. We got it with Pippa to show that she's flirty when she's being herself as opposed to her disguise and it works to give her more character but in Annette's case it's not evident whether she's talking about a friend or a girlfriend - and it doesn't really change our perspective of her, hence my confusion on why should it be important. I think a good example of how I think this should work is in Fallout: New Vegas with Arcade and Veronica; neither of them is very open about their orientation, they mention it after you know a good part of their stories and just as a little thing, but it puts the rest of what they told you in a different light.
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Oct 4, 2015 07:49
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George posted:The problem with Witcher is similar: people feel like there needs to be a reason to put black people in. They exist in the universe, and if it's anything like eastern Europe in the world we live in there would certainly be a noticeable, or at least non-zero, number of non-white people. Much like how you saw straight as a default state and homosexuality as a divergence that needs to be justified, the developers saw race the same way. This is quite definitely a bad thing. That said, this argument works too to explain why black people could be a great addition from a story telling perspective, in certain cases. If for example you wanted to portray a rich merchant, a high-ranking noble or a king, as a worldly and sophisticated character, then including one or more black people in their household/court would be a solid way to do it, precisely because their presence would indicate a level of connectedness with the outside world which might be literally unimaginable to the peasantry. The real life equivalent of this person would be someone like Peter the Great, who historically brought Ethiopian Christians to his court during the 17th century, and who is of course known as a great modernizer.
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Oct 4, 2015 14:46
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anilEhilated posted:No, I really don't get it. Call me a backwoods European peasant or something but I figure there's no point in having a minority represented just for the sake of having a minority represented. If her orientation played any role in the story, sure, but it really seems completely random here. anilEhilated posted:That's entirely the point - why should you care what her orientation is? Fun fact: recognising that gay people or black people or whoever exist is not "positive discrimination"
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Oct 4, 2015 14:55
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Fun fact: recognizing that something exists is different from shoving it in your face.
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Oct 4, 2015 15:13
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anilEhilated posted:Fun fact: recognizing that something exists is different from shoving it in your face.  Well, there's a lot of ways to parse that statement.
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Oct 4, 2015 15:36
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Klaus88 posted:
I consider it a dick joke  Anyway this is a silly derail that is derailing pretty hard.
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Oct 4, 2015 15:50
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A Buttery Pastry posted:If the Witcher is based around a fictionalized medieval Poland, the number of black people would be really limited I think. Like, you could literally count them on one hand. What, can you only fit so many different races in a game because of all the griffins and fantasy monsters? If it's fantasy, what exactly is stopping you from saying 'and the races interacted a lot here'?
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Oct 4, 2015 16:00
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dscruffy1 posted:I consider it a dick joke Well if the wolfenstein guys wanted us on track maybe they could have given us a train level 
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Oct 4, 2015 16:08
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RareAcumen posted:What, can you only fit so many different races in a game because of all the griffins and fantasy monsters? If it's fantasy, what exactly is stopping you from saying 'and the races interacted a lot here'? The Witcher is set in circa-1200's Poland where the all the myths are true, so that'd be what's stopping them. If Projekt Red was based out of Spain telling stories about local folk fantasy set during El Cid's rule it's safe to assume that wouldn't be the case, but it's not the case.
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Oct 4, 2015 17:13
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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RareAcumen posted:What, can you only fit so many different races in a game because of all the griffins and fantasy monsters? If it's fantasy, what exactly is stopping you from saying 'and the races interacted a lot here'? The comparison to griffins and poo poo doesn't really hold up I feel, since those are really just window dressing, while racial diversity directly deals with human nature. Just handwaving that away and going "and the races interacted a lot here" basically ignores that the reason for widespread racial diversity in the most diverse regions of the world is usually violence on a massive scale, such as the conquest of the Americas followed by the enslavement of millions of Africans, violence which still influences the lives of the descendants of these people. Of course if you did actually include similarly massive events in your fantasy setting, and the aftershocks of those events, then that's great, but the handwave just comes across as whitewashing of history (through fantasy) to me.
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Oct 4, 2015 17:17
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RareAcumen posted:What, can you only fit so many different races in a game because of all the griffins and fantasy monsters? If it's fantasy, what exactly is stopping you from saying 'and the races interacted a lot here'? Why couldn't Jade Empire have more white characters? Why does it have dragons and inscrutable engines, but not white characters? FoolyCharged posted:Well if the wolfenstein guys wanted us on track maybe they could have given us a train level I guess I should try and trust Machine Games more. They aren't the ones to make Thor's Super Special All Race Inclusive Buddy Squad or 90's Hip Inclusive Urban Ghost Busters or BioWare's All Our Gay Chards Have Dead SOs Ain't That Lyrical, which is a cheap way to get variety browny points. Machine Games put in legit effort to make everything full and worthwhile, and they already had that one sad lesbian in the concentration camp, and maybe Annette really has a super best friend like I never had.
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Oct 4, 2015 17:19
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A Buttery Pastry posted:The comparison to griffins and poo poo doesn't really hold up I feel, since those are really just window dressing, while racial diversity directly deals with human nature. Just handwaving that away and going "and the races interacted a lot here" basically ignores that the reason for widespread racial diversity in the most diverse regions of the world is usually violence on a massive scale E: back on the actual game, do stealth-headshots prevent enemy nazis from turning into zombies, or is there no way of predicting it during stealth sections?
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Oct 4, 2015 17:40
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anilEhilated posted:Fun fact: recognizing that something exists is different from shoving it in your face. Can you really call a gay character being in a game "shoving it in your face"?
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Oct 4, 2015 17:50
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Goons being Goons posted:
 Jesus Christ, sorry I asked about Annette, didn't know I' be opening this can of worms.
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Oct 4, 2015 17:52
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Gays, Blacks, etc
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I think when the game let it be ambiguous and pass without comment it showed it was classier than us by a long mile.
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Oct 4, 2015 17:56
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radintorov posted:And the game does show such violent interaction anyway with the southern Nilfgaardian Empire waging a war of conquest and whom I believe is inspired mainly by the Persian Empire with a smidge of Roman Empire as well, which should technically count? Peeestol headshots? No, since they don't make heads pop.
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Oct 4, 2015 17:58
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A Buttery Pastry posted:Verisimilitude? A great diversity of people in one place implies something of great enough significance that people will travel far to get there, which could be a religious center, a bustling trade hub, or a center of learning. That can absolutely work for a fantasy game, no doubt about it, but it's a very poor fit for any setting where the emphasis is on the backwardness and poverty of the region. It's characterization, except for a place rather than a person. My point was more 'Hey, you're already throwing in dragons and werewolves and griffins into your fantasy game, I feel like it'd be less of a stretch to put in non-Europeans into it' And it is fantasy so to me, not knowing a lot about writing and game development or anything in general, it kinda seems a bit weird to make a fantasy world that also keeps some of the same negative trappings that we've got now. DeusExMachinima posted:The Witcher is set in circa-1200's Poland where the all the myths are true, so that'd be what's stopping them. If Projekt Red was based out of Spain telling stories about local folk fantasy set during El Cid's rule it's safe to assume that wouldn't be the case, but it's not the case. Hey, that's useful stuff to know! I never got into the Witcher beforehand so all I knew about it was that it was an assumedly good series of games. That's a good enough reason to keep things semi-realistic as any, I'll relent. JcDent posted:Why couldn't Jade Empire have more white characters? Why does it have dragons and inscrutable engines, but not white characters? Don't know anything about Jade Empire so why not?
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Oct 4, 2015 17:59
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Jimmy4400nav posted:
don't worry it happens. personally i thought machine games handles diversity(racial and sexual) really well. its better then bioware or borderlands solutions by a mile.
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Oct 4, 2015 18:07
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cargohills posted:Can you really call a gay character being in a game "shoving it in your face"? TomViolence posted:I think when the game let it be ambiguous and pass without comment it showed it was classier than us by a long mile.
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Oct 4, 2015 18:13
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JcDent posted:Peeestol headshots? No, since they don't make heads pop. Correct, the only thing that stops the nazis from coming back is luck and limb removal. Also, scripted falling deaths stop the Zombification process for some reason. You can stab a guy in the head and he'll regenerate as a zombie if you are unlucky.
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Oct 4, 2015 18:24
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