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Next people will claim a single union could handle stage hands, lighting designers, editors, set builders and more!
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Oct 5, 2015 19:00
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i'm mcse certified and have my A+ cert
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Oct 5, 2015 19:00
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MeruFM posted:aren't a lot of licenses just gently caress-you-got-mine miasma to wade through to obtain? well what they're meant to do a lot of the time is to prevent some jackass just rolling up and claiming that they're, say, a HVAC engineer and then burning down a school thru negligence and giving the entire profession a bad name having a barrier to entry like that is p common for skilled professions and cool and good hell, even hairdressers hafta get certified and that involves p minimal public health stuff
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Oct 5, 2015 19:04
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i have photoshop and indesign certification i'm certified to photoshop balls on your face but only if you pay me
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Oct 5, 2015 19:05
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if you think everyone is just making excuses then tell me what professional standards there should be for computer people, that's why I asked in the first place yeah doctors are certified but not the same as vets, nurses or lifeguards please enlighten me
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Oct 5, 2015 19:06
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:well what they're meant to do a lot of the time is to prevent some jackass just rolling up and claiming that they're, say, a HVAC engineer and then burning down a school thru negligence and giving the entire profession a bad name that makes sense The scenario closest to yours is hiring a 'freelancer' who sets up your site with wordpress and dreamweaver. But then they're not going to be arrested for it.
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Oct 5, 2015 19:08
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qirex posted:if you think everyone is just making excuses then tell me what professional standards there should be for computer people, that's why I asked in the first place computer programmers should be held to the exact same standards as other engineers if they want to keep calling themselves engineers, eg, being criminably liable for any and all damage or loss of life caused by the software they create
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Oct 5, 2015 19:08
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what about the programmers who make military drone controller software
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Oct 5, 2015 19:09
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qirex posted:if you think everyone is just making excuses then tell me what professional standards there should be for computer people, that's why I asked in the first place I would unironically be down with some of the best known alogrithms, basic social skills and ethics to start. So complete fantasy as usual
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Oct 5, 2015 19:11
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qirex posted:if you think everyone is just making excuses then tell me what professional standards there should be for computer people, that's why I asked in the first place minimum educational requirements and a licensure exam after some minimum amount of time worked in a relevant professional capacity as an apprentice or junior or w/e $title licensure exam to be written yearly by the org and have a selection of sub-specialties or fields or w/e - ie a "breadth" portion that covers general knowledge for the field and then a "depth" portion that's selected by the testee (lol) for their particular skillset or w/e maintenance of licensure to be contingent upon completion of a minimum of professional development hours/continuing education each year this is literally how actual respected professions all do it - lol if you think programming is uniquely unsuited to it compared to, say, engineering or law or medicine
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Oct 5, 2015 19:14
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engineer chat 
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Oct 5, 2015 19:14
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my point is that if there is certification/licensing it will either be so broad as to be useless or so specific that it would also be useless I think it would be good if there was a clear chain of liability custody for most things but in the real world you can't get away with building a bridge that lets cars fall through 0.4% of the time but it's easy to write software with performance and reliability standards way below anything else that is still considered successful and effective
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Oct 5, 2015 19:16
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jerks at logitech and gopro cranking out iterative CE products call themselves EE's, where's all your clamoring to have them respect a PE cert?
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Oct 5, 2015 19:16
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Trabisnikof posted:I would unironically be down with some of the best known alogrithms, basic social skills and ethics to start. reminder I am a Computing Professional. My work as a Computing Professional affects people's lives, both now and into the future. As a result, I bear moral and ethical responsibilities to society. As a Computing Professional, I pledge to practice my profession with the highest level of integrity and competence. I shall always use my skills for the public good. I shall be honest about my limitations, continuously seeking to improve my skills through life-long learning. I shall engage only in honorable and upstanding endeavors. By my actions, I pledge to honor my chosen profession.
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Oct 5, 2015 19:17
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:minimum educational requirements and a licensure exam after some minimum amount of time worked in a relevant professional capacity as an apprentice or junior or w/e $title I'm asking what would possibly be a single question in the "breadth" portion that applies to even 90% of people who, broadly, "do computer poo poo" you're constantly tripping over yourself to tell us you're the smartest person here because you're a "real" engineer so please share your wisdom
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Oct 5, 2015 19:18
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MeruFM posted:aren't a lot of licenses just gently caress-you-got-mine miasma to wade through to obtain? sometimes they exist partially to make sure that out of state folks can't compete. which is kind of a necessary evil because without that and with transferable licenses you'd end up with a race to the bottom where now every teacher and lawyer is certified in South Dakota.
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Oct 5, 2015 19:18
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qirex posted:I'm asking what would possibly be a single question in the "breadth" portion that applies to even 90% of people who, broadly, "do computer poo poo" who cares
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Oct 5, 2015 19:19
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:who cares you do, you post constantly about professional accreditation
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Oct 5, 2015 19:19
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Enderzero posted:you do, you post constantly about professional accreditation lol ok
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Oct 5, 2015 19:21
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Beast of Bourbon posted:what about the programmers who make military drone controller software life imprisonment
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Oct 5, 2015 19:23
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As a Millennial I posted:engineer chat 
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Oct 5, 2015 19:24
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:lol ok you must admit; you do care
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Oct 5, 2015 19:25
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:who cares that was my whole point, how can you have a "union" when literally nobody does the same thing as anyone else the modern tech industry evolved a) organically and b) really, really fast so the differences way outstrip the commonalities no part of the dude who writes php to manage as cookies on a porn site, the woman who writes realtime video processing for live TV or someone who hacks at a 30 megabyte pile of excel macros for a hedge fund is in common but they're all "developers" or "programmers" their commonalities are: they type on a keyboard, and, um... people who build poo poo have had a union and standards for a long [looooooooooooooong if you believe the masons  ] time and they've also had thousands of years to figure it out
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Oct 5, 2015 19:26
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qirex posted:I'm asking what would possibly be a single question in the "breadth" portion that applies to even 90% of people who, broadly, "do computer poo poo "Is it appropriate to scream at coworkers?" Fastest a cert became mandatory its up to the reader to guess which answer would be correct
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Oct 5, 2015 19:26
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qirex posted:I'm asking what would possibly be a single question in the "breadth" portion that applies to even 90% of people who, broadly, "do computer poo poo" https://cdn.ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/SWE-Apr-2013.pdf
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Oct 5, 2015 19:28
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Trabisnikof posted:"Is it appropriate to scream at coworkers?" i used to know a qa guy who once jumped over a cube wall to fistfight with a dev who had been acting like a big cock in e-mail
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Oct 5, 2015 19:28
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qirex posted:that was my whole point, how can you have a "union" when literally nobody does the same thing as anyone else This is why arguing about certifications is dumb. Unions represent tons of different professions that don't do poo poo like each other You know what they have in common? Shitass management IATSE proves you wrong
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Oct 5, 2015 19:28
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Trabisnikof posted:"Is it appropriate to scream at coworkers?" I think this industry could use a "not a jerky shitlord" cert but it would probably be too easy to game, it would have to be some sort of social kobayashi maru situation involving a crying, possibly injured person, some money in a briefcase, a puppy and a screaming baby
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Oct 5, 2015 19:29
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qirex posted:I think this industry could use a "not a jerky shitlord" cert but it would probably be too easy to game, it would have to be some sort of social kobayashi maru situation involving a crying, possibly injured person, some money in a briefcase and a screaming baby give the baby to the crying person, run off with the briefcase
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Oct 5, 2015 19:29
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qirex posted:that was my whole point, how can you have a "union" when literally nobody does the same thing as anyone else yes, it's almost as if the structure of the "industry" itself is problematic and leads to half-assed broken poo poo causing endless security breaches, loss of data and wasted time and money. exactly as it would in literally any other profession and why older industries have standards they expect their practitioners to adhere to
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Oct 5, 2015 19:30
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qirex posted:my point is that if there is certification/licensing it will either be so broad as to be useless or so specific that it would also be useless the point of licensing isn't to demonstrate that you are a super awesome fantastic doctor or plumber or whatever, it's to verify you've gone through industry-standard training, that you are familiar with basic concepts and principles of the work, and that you're probably not stupid or incompetent or irresponsible enough to get someone killed as a result of your work the intention isn't to filter out mediocre programmers, it's to filter out people who read a bunch of "programming for dummies" books and then declared themselves a master programmer because a libertarian told them anyone could become rich by learning to code. it's more about forcing people to get real industry-standard training (apprenticeship, med school, law school, cs degree, w/e), instead of declaring themselves a professional and leaving it up to the client to assess whether they're competent
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Oct 5, 2015 19:32
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I'd say the biggest challenge to labor organization isn't the work it's the fact that there aren't clear demarcations between "workers" and "bosses" in most modern companies, it's more of a slow gradient
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Oct 5, 2015 19:32
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H.P. Hovercraft posted:i suppose that programmerring is just so cutting edge and complex that it would be impossible for a professional organization to sit down every year and write a licensure exam for the regulation of its industry i mean this is the same sort of bullshit idea that leads people to declare that ~coding is an artform~ and get all pretentious about it. i'm personally of the opinion that there's usually one or two "correct" ways to solve a coding problem optimally and anything else is dumb and wrong, there is no artistic license in coding any more than there is in mathematics.
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Oct 5, 2015 19:33
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prefect posted:you must admit; you do care eehhhhh kinda i'd like to see software development have some professional regulations it'd be p nice if you could have professional censure from your state board for putting out buggy garbage and an enforced code of ethics i mean yeah you can kinda make the argument that the field is too young to have a lot of that stuff but that's a terrible excuse for the lack of professionalism (real or perceived) that the field has here's an excerpt from that article on those nasa programmers quote:In the history of human technology, nothing has become as essential as fast as software.
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Oct 5, 2015 19:34
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Main Paineframe posted:the intention isn't to filter out mediocre programmers, it's to filter out people who read a bunch of "programming for dummies" books and then declared themselves a master programmer because a libertarian told them anyone could become rich by learning to code. it's more about forcing people to get real industry-standard training (apprenticeship, med school, law school, cs degree, w/e), instead of declaring themselves a professional and leaving it up to the client to assess whether they're competent
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Oct 5, 2015 19:35
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anyway one of the offices near me occupied by what i considered to be a proto-techbro now has a sign taped to the door that says "OFFICIAL MAN CAVE" so i guess he's metamorphosed from the larval stage.
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Oct 5, 2015 19:36
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qirex posted:it's entirely possible for someone to read a "programming for dummies" books and become successful with continued work, why prevent that? if they can pass the qualification test this wouldn't prevent that, unless there's like an apprenticeship requirement which is probably a good idea anyway. but they won't pass the qualification test because they are an dummy.
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Oct 5, 2015 19:37
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bootcamps teaching to the qual test, fundable mvp still possible with the CEO's nephew writing code, wow look at all that solution
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Oct 5, 2015 19:38
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qirex posted:it's entirely possible for someone to read a "programming for dummies" books and become successful with continued work, why prevent that? in theory because babby's first foxpro/access accounting solution they sold to joe blogs discount trailer repair is going to get owned and lead to theft of data or lost time/money when it shits the bed. if they have to prove they know enough not to do that before they can call themselves a "programmer" it's a net benefit even though it's raising the barrier to entry for programming work
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Oct 5, 2015 19:39
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JawnV6 posted:bootcamps teaching to the qual test, fundable mvp still possible with the CEO's nephew writing code, wow look at all that solution you just described law school
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Oct 5, 2015 19:39
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