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I just love that blob of ethnic "Americans"
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Oct 5, 2015 21:15
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A Winner is Jew posted:And I really, really doubt that it was as simple as (a) call in an air strike (b) start firing without there being some confirmation of verification of the target first, and it's the head of the person that verified it as a legit target that needs to roll, of if it was that simple than whoever made it so targets aren't verified needs to get court-marshaled for negligence. And what are you basing that on? Because I find that to be exactly the most likely way this went down as its how CAS is typically conducted depending on the ROE and specific ordinance being expended. If it was the 105 its a little questionable whether it was something the commander on the ground would have had approval authority on in my experience, but then again I don't doubt for a minute that Special Forces (whom I'm guessing this was) gets more leash then your typical grunt platoon leader.
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Oct 5, 2015 21:25
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Acebuckeye13 posted:Afghanistan is a big country with several hospitals, you realize. It's big, but has almost no hospitals, that's the reason the MSF are so insanely pissed. We blew up the only functioning hospital in that entire region. So shut up Ocelot.
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Oct 5, 2015 21:30
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Goddamn are we still talking about the MSF bombing? Has there been any new information regarding just why it was struck (other than gross negligence)?
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Oct 5, 2015 21:36
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All wars are crimes, Leo.
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Oct 5, 2015 21:37
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California has legalized assisted suicide, becoming the 5th state to do so
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Oct 5, 2015 21:37
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ReindeerF posted:All wars are crimes, Leo. Of all the stupid bullshit pithy lines in that show, that one pisses me off the most. lol we cant get involved in the icc because we commit so many war crimes! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Oct 5, 2015 21:43
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Fried Chicken posted:California has legalized assisted suicide, becoming the 5th state to do so That's cool. Reading the comments of governor Jerry Brown on the law is sort of touching. I don't know anything about the Trans-Pacific Partnership. Can someone enlighten me?
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Oct 5, 2015 21:43
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Fried Chicken posted:California has legalized assisted suicide, becoming the 5th state to do so Does the US military bombing your hospital in a war zone count for this? Asking for a friend.
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Oct 5, 2015 21:44
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So how difficult is it to verify a target? How does that work? I mean, it seems to me that in this day and age it's pretty inexcusable for any site capable of doing something like that not to have, hell I don't know, a tablet or whatever with a do not bomb list they could easily reference within a minute. I would kind of understand if it were a secret site because of security issues or something or that it's short term so it wasn't in the list yet because bureaucracy, but we're talking about a hospital here. I have no idea how these things work though.
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Oct 5, 2015 21:44
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Read this http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/10/0...0ZtWwZCDDVDcgQ-
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Oct 5, 2015 21:50
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Taeke posted:So how difficult is it to verify a target? How does that work? I mean, it seems to me that in this day and age it's pretty inexcusable for any site capable of doing something like that not to have, hell I don't know, a tablet or whatever with a do not bomb list they could easily reference within a minute. I would kind of understand if it were a secret site because of security issues or something or that it's short term so it wasn't in the list yet because bureaucracy, but we're talking about a hospital here. fade5 posted:I mean we're basically doing the same thing in northern Syria by letting the YPG call down airstrikes against ISIL:
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Oct 5, 2015 21:55
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The NYT doesn't have an issue with the Clintons at all.... quote:The other day, in an attempt at mortification, I looked at the Clinton Foundation website and saw as the leading headline, “Partnership to Save Africa’s Elephants.” Since I had recently been in rural Arkansas, I thought: If you want to help closer to home, how about the black family farmers in the Delta, who — rebuffed by banks, trifled with by the United States Department of Agriculture, squeezed by vast corporate farms — are struggling to survive?
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Oct 5, 2015 21:55
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Rollofthedice posted:That's cool. Reading the comments of governor Jerry Brown on the law is sort of touching. Some points gleaned from earlier versions of the bill leaked via WikiLeaks. I haven't seen any good takes on the current version (is it even public yet?).
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Oct 5, 2015 21:56
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Paul Theroux posted:mystagogies 
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Oct 5, 2015 22:00
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I thought the supposed Wikileaks stuff was all fear mongering bullshit of dubious veracity.
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Oct 5, 2015 22:01
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I have to wonder, why does he lay this at the feet of the Clinton foundation? Is it because she's running for president? What about the rest of the multi-millionaires running? Where's his condemnation of Trump, or Bush? Charity sure as hell isn't a fix, but it's better than the "gently caress You Got Mine" that they'll get from the right.
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Oct 5, 2015 22:03
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Luigi Thirty posted:I thought the supposed Wikileaks stuff was all fear mongering bullshit of dubious veracity. Well, I'm sure we'll find out once it's signed Talmonis posted:I have to wonder, why does he lay this at the feet of the Clinton foundation? Is it because she's running for president? What about the rest of the multi-millionaires running? Where's his condemnation of Trump, or Bush? Charity sure as hell isn't a fix, but it's better than the "gently caress You Got Mine" that they'll get from the right. Part of it is because the NYT won't let you put an editorial up if it doesn't hit the clinton-hate quota. The other part is that his point is that people should help at home instead of abroad, and Arkansas is basically bill clinton's home. The foundation helps foreign causes and not local ones. That is why it is relevant. awesmoe fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Oct 5, 2015 |
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Oct 5, 2015 22:04
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Trabisnikof posted:The NYT doesn't have an issue with the Clintons at all.... Talmonis posted:I have to wonder, why does he lay this at the feet of the Clinton foundation? Is it because she's running for president? What about the rest of the multi-millionaires running? Where's his condemnation of Trump, or Bush? Charity sure as hell isn't a fix, but it's better than the "gently caress You Got Mine" that they'll get from the right.
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Oct 5, 2015 22:08
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We should blow up more hospitals imo. That's where diseases are.
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Oct 5, 2015 22:08
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Fried Chicken posted:Is he wrong? It is xenophobic concern trolling and is also wrong.
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Oct 5, 2015 22:12
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Luigi Thirty posted:I thought the supposed Wikileaks stuff was all fear mongering bullshit of dubious veracity. Considering it was 'leaks' from a thing that, at the time, didn't exist, yes.
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Oct 5, 2015 22:15
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Trabisnikof posted:It is xenophobic concern trolling and is also wrong. Xenophobia against elephants. Gotcha.
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Oct 5, 2015 22:18
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Fried Chicken posted:Xenophobia against elephants. Gotcha. I think he means against the Chinese.
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Oct 5, 2015 22:19
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fade5 posted:It's a different country, but here's how we call down airstrikes in Syria: Okay, so in the example given in that article it's the Kurdish militia fighter that orders the strike by giving the coordinates to his handlers. Is he then responsible or does the handler order the strike or confers it to someone who does? Isn't there or shouldn't there be some verification somewhere between a fighter on the ground requesting a strike and it actually being executed? I can hardly blame someone in the thick of it not having access to the do not bomb coordinates (especially if it's militia which to my understanding can be little more than a bunch of willing fighters with at most very, very basic training) but that makes it all the more reasonable for there to be a level headed verification at a higher level. Like I said, I know next to nothing about these matters so I'm just trying to understand. Surely somewhere along the line there's a person of authority with access to the relevant intel that has to approve a bombing? e: To clarify, I'm just trying to understand at what level the gently caress up happened. I can totally understand that once the bombing started it took a while for the messages from MSF to get through to the right people for it to stop. It shouldn't have happened in the first place, obviously, but either the process is faulty or someone hosed up somewhere along the line, and I'm just trying to get an idea of what likely happened. Taeke fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Oct 5, 2015 |
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Oct 5, 2015 22:23
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Jagchosis posted:I think he means against the Chinese.
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Oct 5, 2015 22:37
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Jagchosis posted:I think he means against the Chinese. I mean, gently caress elephants though, if we wanna be real about this.
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Oct 5, 2015 22:39
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Thump! posted:I mean, gently caress elephants though, if we wanna be real about this. Enough about your mother.
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Oct 5, 2015 22:39
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Taeke posted:Okay, so in the example given in that article it's the Kurdish militia fighter that orders the strike by giving the coordinates to his handlers. Is he then responsible or does the handler order the strike or confers it to someone who does? Isn't there or shouldn't there be some verification somewhere between a fighter on the ground requesting a strike and it actually being executed? I can hardly blame someone in the thick of it not having access to the do not bomb coordinates (especially if it's militia which to my understanding can be little more than a bunch of willing fighters with at most very, very basic training) but that makes it all the more reasonable for there to be a level headed verification at a higher level. MSF repeatedly stated they provided GPS coordinates to US command prior to the strike, days prior. Somewhere along the line, someone failed to do their job - either someone didn't check the request against known humanitarian locations, or someone didn't pass that information along, either at the time of the strike or for it to be put on a list, I don't know how that process is done at the time of a call from the field. It's entirely possible that the pilots and the people giving them targets were unaware of a hospital there, because whoever was in charge of dispersing the locations of humanitarian facilities didn't loving do it. There's bound to be accountability somewhere but there's a fair chance it falls somewhere other than the people on the radio and the people pulling the trigger. That isn't to say it's definitely not the pilots or comms guys but there's probably a handful of different people those GPS coordinates were supposed to pass through inclusive of the pilots and one of those people failed at their responsibility and deserves to be tried for their failure, either by negligence or malice. FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Oct 5, 2015 |
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Oct 5, 2015 22:40
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Taeke posted:Okay, so in the example given in that article it's the Kurdish militia fighter that orders the strike by giving the coordinates to his handlers. Is he then responsible or does the handler order the strike or confers it to someone who does? Isn't there or shouldn't there be some verification somewhere between a fighter on the ground requesting a strike and it actually being executed? I can hardly blame someone in the thick of it not having access to the do not bomb coordinates (especially if it's militia which to my understanding can be little more than a bunch of willing fighters with at most very, very basic training) but that makes it all the more reasonable for there to be a level headed verification at a higher level. Its not even that simple, I've never dealt with with AC-130s, but aircraft are often times guided on target by ground troops by visual means, so there may not be any such coordinates being passed to check. The biggest fuckup here might very well be trusting the ANA.
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Oct 5, 2015 22:46
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Venom Snake posted:It's big, but has almost no hospitals, that's the reason the MSF are so insanely pissed. We blew up the only functioning hospital in that entire region. Are we going to buy them a new hospital to replace the one we blew up at least?
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Oct 5, 2015 22:48
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FAUXTON posted:MSF repeatedly stated they provided GPS coordinates to US command prior to the strike, days prior. Somewhere along the line, someone failed to do their job - either someone didn't check the request against known humanitarian locations, or someone didn't pass that information along, either at the time of the strike or for it to be put on a list, I don't know how that process is done at the time of a call from the field. It's entirely possible that the pilots and the people giving them targets were unaware of a hospital there, because whoever was in charge of dispersing the locations of humanitarian facilities didn't loving do it. Okay, so it's pretty much as I figured, thanks for bearing with me. So, assuming there's a willingness up top to get to the bottom of this it shouldn't be too difficult to figure out where it went wrong, right? That's not to say those responsible will actually be held accountable, because yeah, politics and whatever, but it's probable that either something will actually will come out of this or we'll read about it years down the line in a wikileaks kind of revelation.
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Oct 5, 2015 22:51
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It sure is amazing how it seems like the entire internet is suddenly an expert on the TPP, an agreement nobody has read.
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Oct 5, 2015 22:56
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Jarmak posted:The biggest fuckup here might very well be trusting the ANA. That gently caress-up has been ongoing since 2001. We can't even get them to stop raping kids, and infiltrators would shoot our guys pretty often until we separated our forces. The idea that an ANA spotter hosed up and called for an airstrike on a hospital shouldn't surprise anyone.
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Oct 5, 2015 22:59
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Teflon Don posted:Faulty intelligence? In the beginning of the war a combat controller called in a bomb on his own location by mistake, so basically he blew himself up. lol did this really happen because this owns
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Oct 5, 2015 23:03
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Teflon Don posted:Faulty intelligence? In the beginning of the war a combat controller called in a bomb on his own location by mistake, so basically he blew himself up. Please don't post my Battlefield 4 secrets
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Oct 5, 2015 23:04
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the moose posted:Are we going to buy them a new hospital to replace the one we blew up at least? No apologies. You want us to look weak?
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Oct 5, 2015 23:06
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Most likely no one will be held accountable to many errors happen as with any large bureaucracy poo poo happens. Most people are just passing along info thru chains of commands and MSF prolly just called 911 instead of 912 to give proper gps coords.
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Oct 5, 2015 23:14
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FAUXTON posted:MSF repeatedly stated they provided GPS coordinates to US command prior to the strike, days prior. Somewhere along the line, someone failed to do their job - either someone didn't check the request against known humanitarian locations, or someone didn't pass that information along, either at the time of the strike or for it to be put on a list, I don't know how that process is done at the time of a call from the field. It's entirely possible that the pilots and the people giving them targets were unaware of a hospital there, because whoever was in charge of dispersing the locations of humanitarian facilities didn't loving do it. my favorite part of todays thread was people arguing that none of this even matters if a man with a beard is reportedly near the facility scaring The Good Guys
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Oct 5, 2015 23:15
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joeburz posted:lol did this really happen because this owns In one such case it killed 3 US special forces members and 27 Afghan militia. It almost killed Hamid Karzai.
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Oct 5, 2015 23:21
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