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Slickdrac posted:How could you rape and murder a small child. I'm not saying you did rape and murder a small child, nor do I have evidence of it. I'm just asking why you would do such a thing. The guy who has been convicted of raping and kiling dozens of children in the past might not have been guilty of raping and killing a child this time around. I think we should be perfectly neutral on this and give him the benefit of the doubt. Wouldn't want to jump to any completely unreasonable conclusions.
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Oct 6, 2015 17:24
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Trabisnikof posted:oh right, that doesn't say anything of what you're claiming: That first sentence is kind of agreeing with what he characterised it as, actually.
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Oct 6, 2015 17:24
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Elephant Ambush posted:The guy who has been convicted of raping and kiling dozens of children in the past might not have been guilty of raping and killing a child this time around. I think we should be perfectly neutral on this and give him the benefit of the doubt. Wouldn't want to jump to any completely unreasonable conclusions. This but unironically.
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Oct 6, 2015 17:25
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FlamingLiberal posted:The text will not be public for 5 or 6 years No. The negotiation materials are under a non disclosure bar for that time period. The final text will be made public as soon as they actually finish it (they've agreed on contents, which is typically done by debating snippets of text, but still have to actually put together the final text based on what the parties agreed to).
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Oct 6, 2015 17:26
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Trabisnikof posted:Please, tell me specifically what was fabricated in the first three stories. Should be easy, since you claim there are examples in all three. - DoD changed their argument from the bombing being a complete accident, to claiming the hospital and base were being used as "human shields" by the Taliban, which is not true - Pentagon officials initially claimed that US troops were coming under "direct sustained fire" but then changed the story and admitted they were not under fire
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Oct 6, 2015 17:27
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An Angry Bug posted:For one, there weren't any shots coming from the hospital like they claimed. Is that a matter of fact now? I've heard media reports that there were shots coming from the hospital, so it seems in contention to me. pathetic little tramp posted:That first sentence is kind of agreeing with what he characterised it as, actually. There's a vast difference between refining a story and outright fabrication. For example, changing the story from: 1. "US forces called in the Air Strike" 2. "Afghanis called in the Air Strike" 3. "Afghanis asked US forces to call in the Air Strike" is being treated as a fabrication, rather than the obvious refinement/spin that's going on. walgreenslatino posted:- DoD changed their argument from the bombing being a complete accident, to claiming the hospital and base were being used as "human shields" by the Taliban, which is not true Do you have a DoD quote saying that it was a complete accident? Also, there are media reports that Taliban was on the grounds of the hospital, so I wouldn't assume that the truth is known. Is it really a fabrication if our allies were under attack, and our forces on the ground called in the attack, to mistakenly say our forces were attacked? If the Pentagon was trying to lie to us, the should stop undermining themselves. Trabisnikof fucked around with this message at 17:33 on Oct 6, 2015 |
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Oct 6, 2015 17:30
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walgreenslatino posted:- DoD changed their argument from the bombing being a complete accident, to claiming the hospital and base were being used as "human shields" by the Taliban, which is not true Should've just said it was because of an anti-Islam video.
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Oct 6, 2015 17:31
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walgreenslatino posted:- DoD changed their argument from the bombing being a complete accident, to claiming the hospital and base were being used as "human shields" by the Taliban, which is not true Not only that but they've also admitted that the line of communication wasn't "Afghani Army -> AC-130" but instead was "Afghani Army -> special forces -> command and control -> AC-130". At a minimum the command and control part might not have existed, but that still means we didn't check poo poo before we bombed it, or the SF guys panicked and called in a strike on a position that wasn't actually firing at them.
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Oct 6, 2015 17:32
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A Winner is Jew posted:Not only that but they've also admitted that the line of communication wasn't "Afghani Army -> AC-130" but instead was "Afghani Army -> special forces -> command and control -> AC-130". Even if it wasn't checked, MSF says they franticly contacted US military officials yet sustained bombing continued for 30 more minutes. So I don't know how that one will be justified, unless it takes 30 minutes to get a cease-fire message from an army liaison to forward air control
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Oct 6, 2015 17:37
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They thought that MSF stood for Mercenaries Sans Frontiers. The prologue starts in a hospital and everything. It all adds up.
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Oct 6, 2015 17:39
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Trabisnikof posted:Is that a matter of fact now? Yes Gen. John Campbell said in a press conference that US troops were not under fire. I don't think the big bad American war machine bombed a hospital for shits, and I'd like to think they're not stupid enough to bomb an NGO hospital even if they were pure evil, but I also think they're passing the buck on a colossal gently caress-up that implies either massive incompetence, or a war crime where NGOs are just "in the way" for "aiding the enemy"
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Oct 6, 2015 17:41
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Volkerball posted:VS wrong about how the military works? Noooooo. Leaders in the military are pretty stupid, but they aren't so stupid that they can't see why poo poo has gone so poorly in Iraq and Afghanistan. You can't "nation build" and be seen as an oppressive occupier at the same time. The natural response to that (aside from increased transparency and accountability for soldiers committing abuses that victimize the host population It's almost as I was talking about the poo poo show that was Afghanistan specifically, and you know not the world in general. The army does a lot of really good poo poo vis a vis humanitarian aid (The navy even more!) but when it comes to Afghanistan basically everyone's care meter just ran out. I don't know why you even typed this wall of text. You can easily nation build without being seen as an oppressor, see: the reconstruction of Western Europe.
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Oct 6, 2015 17:42
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), is an honest PR campaign to try and win hearts and minds. This is why Civil Affairs was created in the army, and why it went from not even existing in 2007 to being large and currently in the middle of one of the largest recruiting pushes being made in the military while everywhere else downsizes. The Army spent and will continue to spend shitloads of money on humanitarian aid, not just in conflict zones, but in areas where natural disasters strike, around the world. The Army has engineers who's entire job is rebuilding poo poo in war torn areas to score brownie points, and people absolutely do care. They just care about US interests more. Sorry your grandpa who was in Nam or whoever it was that taught you everything you know about the military was wrong again.
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hrm it's almost like western europe had pre-existing nation states where afghanistan does not
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Oct 6, 2015 17:44
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Your Boy Fancy posted:Pieces of it have been leaked, as Congresspersons can read a chapter at a time. No notes, no aides, etc. Plus there's, you know, twenty years of free trade deals to compare it to. Can you link it? I'm curious.
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Oct 6, 2015 17:44
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Venom Snake posted:It's almost as I was talking about the poo poo show that was Afghanistan specifically, and you know not the world in general. The army does a lot of really good poo poo vis a vis humanitarian aid (The navy even more!) but when it comes to Afghanistan basically everyone's care meter just ran out. I don't know why you even typed this wall of text. You don't do the intelligence of "military leaders" justice when you compare Afghanistan to post-WW2 Europe.
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Oct 6, 2015 17:44
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icantfindaname posted:hrm it's almost like western europe had pre-existing nation states where afghanistan does not The biggest challenge in Afghanistan is there is no real drive to get anything done. The local government doesn't care and we sure as hell don't (anymore). Also lol @ volkerball advocating for arming terrorists to fight on the behalf of U.S. interests.
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Oct 6, 2015 17:47
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Radbot posted:Yeah but we are actually saying the US destroyed a hospital, and they objectively did, so your silly rhetorical device kinda falls down there True, but there's a difference between "someone severely screwed up and didn't go through proper protocol and verification" and "someone said 'lol, let's blow up an MSF site for funsies!'". The latter of which is just ridiculous and what he is claiming.
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Oct 6, 2015 17:49
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Venom Snake posted:The biggest challenge in Afghanistan is there is no real drive to get anything done. The local government doesn't care and we sure as hell don't (anymore). It worked out great last time we tried it.  
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Oct 6, 2015 17:54
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Slickdrac posted:True, but there's a difference between "someone severely screwed up and didn't go through proper protocol and verification" and "someone said 'lol, let's blow up an MSF site for funsies!'". The latter of which is just ridiculous and what he is claiming. Did you just never watch the Collateral Murder video, taken by an American helicopter as it guns down civilians? If not, it might be wise of you to do so:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0
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Oct 6, 2015 17:56
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ITT People so up on huffing about America that I can't even understand their posts.
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Oct 6, 2015 17:57
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Elephant Ambush posted:The guy who has been convicted of raping and kiling dozens of children in the past might not have been guilty of raping and killing a child this time around. I think we should be perfectly neutral on this and give him the benefit of the doubt. Wouldn't want to jump to any completely unreasonable conclusions. Curiously, the concept of 'innocent until proven guilty' is actually a real thing and relatively common in legal circles. Also I am laughing at the idea of how DARE a PR drone on a different continent not have perfect information regarding a situation in combat that involves at least three different military forces. Obviously this is a conspiracy and not several levels of administration all trying to shout that it's not their fault simultaniously. Hang them all, death to America.
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Oct 6, 2015 17:59
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Venom Snake posted:You can easily nation build without being seen as an oppressor, see: the reconstruction of Western Europe. The only place that post-WWII Europe and Afghanistan would have been even remotely comparable was West Germany, and even then it was only successful thanks to the presence of an exterior enemy the occupied populace feared more than us (The USSR), decades of occupation, and the influx of an utterly staggering amount of money to rebuild. And that was all without an insurgency running around.
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Oct 6, 2015 18:01
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I can't decide who I want to win the GOP primary most between TRUMP, Skeletor's Cousin Carly, or Ben loving Carson. Each bring their own brand of crazy that'd make it hilarious to watch them debate Hillary/The Bern/whatever 1 on 1.
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Oct 6, 2015 18:03
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Acebuckeye13 posted:The only place that post-WWII Europe and Afghanistan would have been even remotely comparable was West Germany, and even then it was only successful thanks to the presence of an exterior enemy the occupied populace feared more than us (The USSR), decades of occupation, and the influx of an utterly staggering amount of money to rebuild. And that was all without an insurgency running around. not really no, the german corporate-industrial bureaucracy was basically just given a massive injection of capital by the US, but kept on ticking unchanged basically
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Oct 6, 2015 18:09
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Tempest_56 posted:Also I am laughing at the idea of how DARE a PR drone on a different continent not have perfect information regarding a situation in combat that involves at least three different military forces. Obviously this is a conspiracy and not several levels of administration all trying to shout that it's not their fault simultaniously. Hang them all, death to America. If the police shot someone and then hurriedly claimed it was because the victim was armed, only to retract that statement a day later I'm pretty sure there would be massive public condemnation.
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Oct 6, 2015 18:15
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There's lots of AC-130 gun camera footage online. I don't know if they routinely record the video screens the crew are looking at in making firing decisions. But in the case of the MSF hospital, 30 minutes of "why we kept shooting" video would go a long way to explain why they kept shooting for 30 minutes. I'm going to guess you wouldn't see a giant red crescent in the tape, but who knows.
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Oct 6, 2015 18:16
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kustomkarkommando posted:If the police shot someone and then hurriedly claimed it was because the victim was armed, only to retract that statement a day later I'm pretty sure there would be massive public condemnation. And there would be people here defending it.
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Oct 6, 2015 18:16
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zoux posted:And there would be people here defending it. It's almost like we've been through that!
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Oct 6, 2015 18:17
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Why are we assuming a medical group with years of experience managing facilities in active combat zones wouldn't have marked their facility with a distinguishing mark?
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Oct 6, 2015 18:18
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Acebuckeye13 posted:The only place that post-WWII Europe and Afghanistan would have been even remotely comparable was West Germany, and even then it was only successful thanks to the presence of an exterior enemy the occupied populace feared more than us (The USSR), decades of occupation, and the influx of an utterly staggering amount of money to rebuild. And that was all without an insurgency running around. Volkerball was correct in that you need a campaign of hearts and minds to make any reconstruction effort successful but this of course requires an effort an finesse we are not willing to commit to at the current time in Afghanistan and ultimately, we shouldn't until we can figure out how to operate without blowing up hospitals. This is kinda typical of the foreign policy "1 step forward 3 steps back" mantra that has defined U.S. interventionism. The staggering amount of money also payed for itself many time over, and I think a real serious intelligent approach to the Mid East would to but unfortunately we are stuck with morons like Patreus who recommend arming insurgents for the nth time like this hasn't blown back in our face a million times over.
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Oct 6, 2015 18:18
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BI NOW GAY LATER posted:It's almost like we've been through that! The hospital was in a bomb free zone.
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Oct 6, 2015 18:18
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kustomkarkommando posted:If the police shot someone and then hurriedly claimed it was because the victim was armed, only to retract that statement a day later I'm pretty sure there would be massive public condemnation. lol i wish i could live in the same world you do edit: actually the cops would continue to claim the person was armed even after video evidence shows otherwise...
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Oct 6, 2015 18:19
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zoux posted:The hospital was in a bomb free zone. I think you misunderstand what I was saying 
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Oct 6, 2015 18:19
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Phone posted:They thought that MSF stood for Mercenaries Sans Frontiers. The prologue starts in a hospital and everything. I've really enjoyed these MGS references sprinkled here and there into this and other political threads
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Oct 6, 2015 18:20
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Someone should give the DoD a lesson on being Evil. If you want to cover up something, the best way to do it is to never change your story no matter what new information you learn. They clearly don't have much experience lying at the DoD 
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Oct 6, 2015 18:22
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I wonder why the general never mentioned what happened to those GPS coordinates. Sure the air crews themselves might not have them on hand but you might think that maybe they would be briefed beforehand of areas where they can't shoot into, or the command staffers, if there were any, that are relaying the orders would check. You seriously can't mark on the map/navigation systems of aircraft to say Don't Shoot Here There's a Hospital? Edit: Ok if they heard there was fire coming from the building then maybe that might change things legally I dont know. But then there are contentious reports regarding that as well and I am more inclined to trust the hospital when they said there was no weapons fire from their building. I don't see any possible reason why they would lie about it? They couldn't possibly have missed weapons fire inside their own compound. Edit: But at the same time I dont think the US military troopers are mustache twirling villains who would knowingly do this. Horribly horribly incompetent, maybe. But then again they have done some lovely things before so. 
Artificer fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Oct 6, 2015 |
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Oct 6, 2015 18:24
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kustomkarkommando posted:If the police shot someone and then hurriedly claimed it was because the victim was armed, only to retract that statement a day later I'm pretty sure there would be massive public condemnation. There is a slight difference in scale between "A single cop at a traffic stop two miles away" and "A literal war zone seven thousand miles away". I'm not saying the US military didn't totally gently caress up here, but come on. Some poor press officer who's been told to handle this having to revise statements because he's not getting coherent, timely information doesn't make this a grand conspiracy of mustache-twirling evil to murder doctors.
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Oct 6, 2015 18:31
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gently caress I would hate to be in charge of press releases.
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Oct 6, 2015 18:35
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US military says Afghans called for strike through SF who then went through C2 in order to get the aircraft. States unequivocally that the US owns the call.
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Oct 6, 2015 18:35
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If the Pentagon is now saying that the request to bomb the site went through US command and control and not the Afghans talking to the AC 130 directly, that casts even more aspersions on the competence of the involved parties because that's exactly the sort of process you'd expect would prevent the US literally bombing a literal hospital.
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Oct 6, 2015 18:38
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