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zoux posted:Er, why are we giving the US Military the benefit of the doubt at this point? I don't loving understand this forum sometimes. A week ago some of the gun control poo poo posted was making me embarrassed to be liberal and then this week there are people falling all over themselves to find reasons why bombing a hospital is nobody's fault, at least not to the extent that anyone should be held accountable. I guess different posters speak up at different times.
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Oct 6, 2015 21:36
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Fojar38 posted:Because contrary to goon opinion they aren't a bunch of literal murderdrones powered by hatred and racism. quote:------------->
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Oct 6, 2015 21:36
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My evidence was posted on this very page or maybe it's a page back I'm on the app idk.
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Oct 6, 2015 21:36
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Noam Chomsky posted:It's really stupid and dumb that anyone is sticking up for the military here. Excusing or justifying the bombing of a hospital is pretty dumb; it's a stupid discussion to have, too, since we shouldn't even be blowing up buildings and wedding parties and everything else in the middle-east just to catch a minority of people who, justly or unjustly, bear us ill will. What if it wasn't a hospital? What if it was a storefront or an apartment building? It being a hospital just makes the bombing more egregious; the whole situation is wrong and hosed even if you don't look into the details. This is why it's easy for the right to win arguments, or look like they did - they get us stupid lefties arguing over the finer points of horror, like we're arguing over how hot the flames in hell are. Or we're arguing that we are within the framework of war, which our politicians put our military into. Its not very effective to yell at the military for the decisions of politicians. I get that many goons think all our soldiers should just go Bergdal, but I disagree.
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Oct 6, 2015 21:37
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Oh sorry, Forums Poster Noam Chomsky pointed out my red text, so I retract my statement. The US military are literal murderdrones powered by hatred and racism after all.
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Oct 6, 2015 21:37
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As for crediting some pentagon statements vs others as I explained yesterday admissions against interest have high credibility.
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Oct 6, 2015 21:37
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I mean, I have no doubt that the US blew up a hospital, and that they did so because of catastrophic and criminal fuckups. I'm just severely skeptical of the idea that they did so with malice aforethought, like euphronius apparently believes.
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Oct 6, 2015 21:38
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Fojar38 posted:Because contrary to goon opinion they aren't a bunch of literal murderdrones powered by hatred and racism. You don't have to be to commit egregious war crimes. This is the chilling lesson of history.
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Oct 6, 2015 21:38
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Noam Chomsky posted:It's really stupid and dumb that anyone is sticking up for the military here. Excusing or justifying the bombing of a hospital is pretty dumb; it's a stupid discussion to have, too, since we shouldn't even be blowing up buildings and wedding parties and everything else in the middle-east just to catch a minority of people who, justly or unjustly, bear us ill will. What if it wasn't a hospital? What if it was a storefront or an apartment building? It being a hospital just makes the bombing more egregious; the whole situation is wrong and hosed even if you don't look into the details. This is why it's easy for the right to win arguments, or look like they did - they get us stupid lefties arguing over the finer points of horror, like we're arguing over how hot the flames in hell are. Why do you think the US military are evil monsters who purposely murder Afghani civilians for sport. fool_of_sound posted:I mean, I have no doubt that the US blew up a hospital, and that they did so because of catastrophic and criminal fuckups. I'm just severely skeptical of the idea that they did so with malice aforethought, like euphronius apparently believes. I would like to disown euphronious if that's what he legitimately believes. I just think he's communicating poorly.
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Oct 6, 2015 21:38
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Trabisnikof posted:Or we're arguing that we are within the framework of war, which our politicians put our military into. Its not very effective to yell at the military for the decisions of politicians. Some might say that every thinking person has a moral obligation to avoid doing horrible things to their fellow man, even if those horrible things are painted red, white, and blue. Also, we have an all-volunteer force. You know exactly what you're signing up for, with reasonable approximation. Huzanko fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Oct 6, 2015 |
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Oct 6, 2015 21:38
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I have stated plainly I don't know why they did it. fool_of_sound posted:I mean, I have no doubt that the US blew up a hospital, and that they did so because of catastrophic and criminal fuckups. I'm just severely skeptical of the idea that they did so with malice aforethought, like euphronius apparently believes.
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Oct 6, 2015 21:39
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MFS communicated their co-ordinates to the US as early as September 29th, the US military had advisers on the ground in the area since at least three days before the strikes. Its a reasonable inference to believe the US military where aware of the existence and location of the hospital based on these facts.
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Oct 6, 2015 21:39
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Fojar38 posted:Oh sorry, Forums Poster Noam Chomsky pointed out my red text, so I retract my statement. The US military are literal murderdrones powered by hatred and racism after all. I don't think anyone is saying that; I'm certainly not. However, not all of them are good people either. Many of them are very racist and very hateful people. My argument is someone in the apparatus is responsible and I see people falling all over themselves to excuse the whole apparatus.
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Oct 6, 2015 21:40
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Noam Chomsky posted:Some might say that every thinking person has a moral obligation to avoid doing horrible things to their fellow man, even if those horrible things are painted red, white, and blue. but my team! Noam Chomsky posted:I don't think anyone is saying that; I'm certainly not. well i am but im not the one people keep arguing against
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Oct 6, 2015 21:40
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kustomkarkommando posted:MFS communicated their co-ordinates to the US as early as September 29th, the US military had advisers on the ground in the area since at least three days before the strikes. And also the hospital had been there for a long time and was not a temporary structure. That's it.
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Oct 6, 2015 21:41
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euphronius posted:And also the hospital had been there for a long time and was not a temporary structure. the military begs to differ
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Oct 6, 2015 21:42
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Ernie Muppari posted:but my team! I just don't like to paint people with a broad brush, not if I can help it. I can say that military folks I have grown up with and personally know - anecdotal though this may be - are racist and enjoy the fact that we "kill them over there so they don't kill us over here." They're not all saints and they're not all sinners but they are all responsible for what they do as individuals, orders or no, uniform or no.
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Oct 6, 2015 21:43
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mr. mephistopheles posted:Why do you think the US military are evil monsters who purposely murder Afghani civilians for sport. Well there was that time when some members of the US military, you know, were purposefully murdering Afghani civilians for sport and all.
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Oct 6, 2015 21:53
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One thing that always comes up in regards to fully autonomous weapons platforms is that they need to keep a human in the loop. I'm starting to think that's the wrong way to go. With humans in the loop there's going to be an endless stream of passive voice "Things happened, triggers got pulled, radios got muted." At least with an automated process, someone can say "Why did the system permit a hospital to be targeted?"
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Oct 6, 2015 21:54
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:One thing that always comes up in regards to fully autonomous weapons platforms is that they need to keep a human in the loop. working as intended  (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Oct 6, 2015 21:55
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I imagine the biggest mistake here was using a weapons platform that can't target by coordinates in an urban setting. This is something NGOs have warned about already. But let's make sure that detail gets lost in the outrage.
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Oct 6, 2015 21:58
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Well there was that time when some members of the US military, you know, were purposefully murdering Afghani civilians for sport and all. Do you think that this was an official action that was defended by US officials or what.
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Oct 6, 2015 21:58
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mr. mephistopheles posted:Do you think that this was an official action that was defended by US officials or what. Probably not, but that's not what you asked, ace.
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Oct 6, 2015 21:59
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Captain_Maclaine posted:Probably not, but that's not what you asked, ace. I was making fun of the people strawmanning anyone who claimed the bombing was deliberate of thinking the military are evil murder conspirators.
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Oct 6, 2015 22:02
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Trabisnikof posted:I imagine the biggest mistake here was using a weapons platform that can't target by coordinates in an urban setting. This is something NGOs have warned about already. That doesn't help much if you're given bad coordinates and don't bother checking them.
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Oct 6, 2015 22:02
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Noam Chomsky posted:Some might say that every thinking person has a moral obligation to avoid doing horrible things to their fellow man, even if those horrible things are painted red, white, and blue. People signing up for careers due to a highly unrealistic view of what they think they will be doing in said career, only to realize that they were wrong too late to back out due to financial responsibilities, fear of unemployment or shame, or some other reasons, is hardly rare. I'm sure there are some intelligence agents who found themselves "forced" into doing acts that they would have been uncomfortable with. So I disagree with you on your second point. But I do agree with your first one.
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Oct 6, 2015 22:11
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Artificer posted:People signing up for careers due to a highly unrealistic view of what they think they will be doing in said career, only to realize that they were wrong too late to back out due to financial responsibilities, fear of unemployment or shame, or some other reasons, is hardly rare. 
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Oct 6, 2015 22:14
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Oh gently caress.  Edit: Ok this can't be localized to just the U.S. military. Right? Artificer fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Oct 6, 2015 |
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Oct 6, 2015 22:19
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The US is bombing hospitals and liberal jokers think they should be in charge of health care?
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Oct 6, 2015 22:26
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"In the end, I was left to reflect on what I would want in the face of my own death," the governor wrote in a signing statement that accompanied his signature on the legislation. "I do not know what I would do if I were dying in prolonged and excruciating pain. I am certain, however, that it would be a comfort to be able to consider the options afforded by this bill. He added he wouldn't deny that right to others.
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Oct 6, 2015 22:27
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Artificer posted:Oh gently caress. No, but I'll just put it out there that the US military probably has the least number of idiots % wise compared to every other nations military.* *Marines excluded.
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Oct 6, 2015 22:39
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A Winner is Jew posted:No, but I'll just put it out there that the US military probably has the least number of idiots % wise compared to every other nations military.* For every intelligent person in any military there are 10 people who would have signed up under MOS 1488 Combat Racist.
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Oct 6, 2015 22:42
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When I was in the Navy I was always astounded at the end of the day when we were still floating. I always imagined that there was some office in the Pentagon with one guy who actually knew what the gently caress he was doing was just frantically making phone calls all day long keeping the whole thing from falling apart. I used to wonder how the gently caress we haven't been invaded, then I saw how other militaries run. We sorta actually have our poo poo together.
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Oct 6, 2015 22:45
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duz posted:That doesn't help much if you're given bad coordinates and don't bother checking them. Were our guys with the Afghanis to verify if they were taking fire from the hospital? If not or if everyone on the ground agreed then C2 probably revoked the hospitals protected status based on available information.
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Oct 6, 2015 22:46
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This poster loves police brutality, but only when its against minorities!
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Luigi Thirty posted:For every intelligent person in any military there are 10 people who would have signed up under MOS 1488 Combat Racist. This is hilarious.
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Oct 6, 2015 22:48
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Dr. Arbitrary posted:When I was in the Navy I was always astounded at the end of the day when we were still floating. I always imagined that there was some office in the Pentagon with one guy who actually knew what the gently caress he was doing was just frantically making phone calls all day long keeping the whole thing from falling apart. Yeah, basically. I realized this was the case when I saw that the most common means of communication between vessels during international exercises is unencrypted commercial cell phones. This even goes for NATO and UN allies that we're theoretically supposed to have preset radio frequencies with daily changing call signs to communicate with.
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Oct 6, 2015 22:50
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Artificer posted:Oh gently caress. Nah, it's a pretty common theme in all militaries throughout the entirety of human history. Hell, I bet Spartans were drawing dicks on the insides of their barracks bathrooms in their downtime.
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Oct 6, 2015 22:52
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Artificer posted:People signing up for careers due to a highly unrealistic view of what they think they will be doing in said career, only to realize that they were wrong too late to back out due to financial responsibilities, fear of unemployment or shame, or some other reasons, is hardly rare. I signed up to be a 35M Human Intelligence Collector in the Army without realizing until after I signed the paper that 90% of that time that means "Interrogator." So now I'm a trained and certified Untied States Army Interrogator. Good times.
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Oct 6, 2015 22:56
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Thump! posted:Nah, it's a pretty common theme in all militaries throughout the entirety of human history. Hell, I bet Spartans were drawing dicks on the insides of their barracks bathrooms in their downtime. Knowing how the Spartans were I would actually be shocked if they weren't drawing dicks on everything in sight.
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Oct 6, 2015 23:01
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Thump! posted:Nah, it's a pretty common theme in all militaries throughout the entirety of human history. Hell, I bet Spartans were drawing dicks on the insides of their barracks bathrooms in their downtime. The real surprise is we've lived so long as a species.
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Oct 6, 2015 23:02
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