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Spaceman Future! posted:no its really not You're right, if given the choice between an unaccountable mostly incompetent foreign military killing people by accident occasionally and an unaccountable mostly incompetent foreign military killing people on purpose constantly I would be completely unable to decide between the two.
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Oct 7, 2015 01:48
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Ditocoaf posted:Seriously though, whoever made the decision "yes, we are going to bomb these coordinates" should be facing serious charges. (this probably won't happen.) If there's someone who was supposed to connect the MSF's cries of "we're here, don't kill us" to ongoing operations, but didn't, then they should be facing serious charges. (also probably won't happen.) "I don't know what happened yet, and I don't understand the process, but I've already identified who we need to put on trial because they're probably guilty." FYI this is why the U.S. will never ratify the Rome Statute.
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Oct 7, 2015 01:49
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The main point I was trying to make in that post (I argued it badly, tried to remove the post, but this thread moves fast): If there's a process in place that means that nobody really made a criminal decision, and we just bombed a hospital automatically by following procedure, then that's even worse than someone making a bad decision. People are tempted to say "see, it's just a bad system, not bad people" and be relieved, but that's the wrong way to look at it. If the system led to this outcome, and you can't pin the blame on individuals but rather a process... that's worse, harder to change, and says much worse things about the US military overall. Ditocoaf fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Oct 7, 2015 |
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Oct 7, 2015 01:52
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Stereotype posted:You're right, if given the choice between an unaccountable mostly incompetent foreign military killing people by accident occasionally and an unaccountable mostly incompetent foreign military killing people on purpose constantly I would be completely unable to decide between the two. bombs dont slip out out planes or drones, neither party is accidentally killing anyone, I dont see whay you are trying to assign some sort of moral scale to the established disregard for civilian casualties by either side. after a decade and a half of war the only thing the droopy dog aw shucks U.S. military actions have done is give rise to further resistance groups to fill in the voids we create, what possible upside comes from these deaths at this point?
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Oct 7, 2015 01:53
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Ditocoaf posted:The main point I was trying to make in that post (I argued it badly, tried to remove the post, but this thread moves fast): This may blow your mind, but people can make life-altering decisions based on faulty or incomplete information without committing a criminal act.
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Oct 7, 2015 01:54
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Volkerball posted:
"Obama's War" is also a good Frontline overview of how things went to poo poo, and the role the US withdraw played in it. Granted, I can understand why Obama decided to withdraw (And the collapse of Iraq is far more Maliki's fault anyway, the gently caress), but you can't deny that the shift in policy and commitment towards Iraq going from Bush to Obama helped to set the stage for the ongoing clusterfuck. It's worth noting that while David Patraeus hosed up royally, during the initial invasion of Iraq he was one of the few US divisional commanders who actually knew what the gently caress he was doing and generally speaking his strategy of pacifying Iraq once he was put in command worked. What's happened in Iraq the past few years has obviously caused everything to go to poo poo again, but that's less of a result of Patraeus' strategy and more a result of the entire country being a giant sham.
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Oct 7, 2015 01:54
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This sure is a fun cop out for people to resort to in DnD. Here's a documentary on it from known Breitbart affiliate PBS if you're interested in learning something.
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Acebuckeye13 posted:"Obama's War" is also a good Frontline overview of how things went to poo poo, and the role the US withdraw played in it. Granted, I can understand why Obama decided to withdraw (And the collapse of Iraq is far more Maliki's fault anyway, the gently caress), but you can't deny that the shift in policy and commitment towards Iraq going from Bush to Obama helped to set the stage for the ongoing clusterfuck. The point of Petraeus strategy was to allow space for a political solution. It was all destined to fail since there was never one really in the offing.
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Oct 7, 2015 01:56
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Stereotype posted:You're right, if given the choice between an unaccountable mostly incompetent foreign military killing people by accident occasionally and an unaccountable mostly incompetent foreign military killing people on purpose constantly I would be completely unable to decide between the two. Are you trying to imply the US military doesn't kill people on purpose constantly or something? At any rate, I'm sure that the doctors and children, as they were being blown apart or burned alive, were comforted by the thought that "At least there's no abundant intentionality." Dead Reckoning posted:"I don't know what happened yet, and I don't understand the process, but I've already identified who we need to put on trial because they're probably guilty." FYI this is why the U.S. will never ratify the Rome Statute. "People that blow up hospitals should face legal repurcussions," hmm yes, this kind of bloodthirsty recklessness sure is a problem.
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Oct 7, 2015 01:57
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Dead Reckoning posted:This may blow your mind, but people can make life-altering decisions based on faulty or incomplete information without committing a criminal act. Yes, and I'm saying that the fact that our military is an organization where people get incomplete information and end up blowing up charity hospitals is even worse, a worse thing to exist in the world, than if there were just a single criminally-negligent person in a good system.
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Oct 7, 2015 01:57
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Ditocoaf posted:Yes, and I'm saying that the fact that our military's process is set up in a way where people get incomplete information and end up blowing up charity hospitals is even worse, a worse thing to exist in the world, than if there were just a single criminally-negligent person in a good system.
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Oct 7, 2015 01:59
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Spaceman Future! posted:no its really not No, he's right. We're technically still better than the Taliban. So we have that going for us.
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Oct 7, 2015 02:01
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Dead Reckoning posted:Well, once we eliminate the fog and friction of war, a quest that has eluded armies for 4,000 years, we'll be all set. Do you not want there to be accountability or something? Do you not realize how bad this looks, and how detrimental to the overall goals in Afghanistan poo poo like this is? If heads don't roll, then the US validates everything Afghani's who think they should be fought are saying. That's horrible, and will negate a lot of time and effort that has been put into rebuilding the country. This didn't happen in a random house on a foot patrol with two witnesses. A fuckload of people were involved in getting those strikes on target, and it's not going to be difficult to figure out exactly what happened and why. The question is whether the US is going to be upfront about it, or try and cover it up because Are Boys at the expense of the overall mission.
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Oct 7, 2015 02:06
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Dead Reckoning's out for drinks at the local bar. Suddenly some dudes start shouting and pushing one another. Suddenly a guy swings his fist into Dead Reckoning's nose. And keeps doing it for an hour. Someone runs up and asks, "poo poo, that looks like it hurt. Should we call the police or at least yell at that guy?!" As he stuffs napkins up his bleeding nostrils, Dead Reckoning sagely replies "No. There's nothing to be done. It's just the fog of bar brawls."Dead Reckoning posted:Well, once we eliminate the fog and friction of war, a quest that has eluded armies for 4,000 years, we'll be all set. Somehow I don't think avoiding bombing a hospital that's broadcasting "We're a hospital, please don't bomb" to anyone that will listen requires the perfect knowledge implied in your strawman argument.
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Oct 7, 2015 02:08
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Dead Reckoning posted:"I don't know what happened yet, and I don't understand the process, but I've already identified who we need to put on trial because they're probably guilty." FYI this is why the U.S. will never ratify the Rome Statute. Yo,what about the post where the guy used acronyms and jargon authentically, you skipped over that one that said it was a warcrime.
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Oct 7, 2015 02:41
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If people can get busted for careless driving they sure as hell ought to get busted for careless warring.
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Oct 7, 2015 02:51
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FAUXTON posted:If people can get busted for careless driving they sure as hell ought to get busted for careless warring. Would it be reckless driving if the Taliban was shooting at the car.
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Oct 7, 2015 02:54
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FAUXTON posted:If people can get busted for careless driving they sure as hell ought to get busted for careless warring. So a $200 fine?
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Oct 7, 2015 02:58
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Yeah the Taliban overran that city like a week ago and are currently still actively fighting around the area, so again, this isn't a terrorist attack on a sacrosanct bastion of peace, it is a targeting mistake in an active war zone. It is bad that it happened, it is always bad when innocent civilians get killed, but it isn't a brutally repressive regime kidnapping, raping, trafficking and murdering thousands while actively trying to kill innocent civilians. They aren't the same thing.
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Oct 7, 2015 02:59
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mr. mephistopheles posted:Would it be reckless driving if the Taliban was shooting at the car. Yeah because it's not difficult to avoid crashing into a hospital you were told about even when you say you're being shot at. mlmp08 posted:So a $200 fine? Well there's the issue that the careless warring resulted in a hospital getting destroyed so the war insurance company is going to have to send a war adjuster out. FAUXTON fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Oct 7, 2015 |
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Oct 7, 2015 03:01
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There's no excuse for a military strike on a hospital. That doesn't seem like a very controversial statement, but here we are. MSF were certainly no angels?
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Oct 7, 2015 03:06
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Stereotype posted:it is always bad when innocent civilians get killed, but "we should ensure that those responsible are held accountable and face justice?"
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Oct 7, 2015 03:06
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Look, stuff happens.
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Oct 7, 2015 03:08
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Volkerball posted:Do you not want there to be accountability or something? Do you not realize how bad this looks, and how detrimental to the overall goals in Afghanistan poo poo like this is? If heads don't roll, then the US validates everything Afghani's who think they should be fought are saying. That's horrible, and will negate a lot of time and effort that has been put into rebuilding the country. This didn't happen in a random house on a foot patrol with two witnesses. A fuckload of people were involved in getting those strikes on target, and it's not going to be difficult to figure out exactly what happened and why. The question is whether the US is going to be upfront about it, or try and cover it up because Are Boys at the expense of the overall mission. Sharkie posted:Somehow I don't think avoiding bombing a hospital that's broadcasting "We're a hospital, please don't bomb" to anyone that will listen requires the perfect knowledge implied in your strawman argument. zoux posted:Yo,what about the post where the guy used acronyms and jargon authentically, you skipped over that one that said it was a warcrime.
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Oct 7, 2015 03:09
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I'm glad that we, and our military force which is the most most powerful in the world, are at least better than the Taliban. We're just a bit sloppy when furthering our goals in a region, and sometimes accidentally kill some civilians or bomb a hospital. It's a tragedy, but at least we aren't doing it on purpose. I'm sure we'll be more careful next time. We're a force for good in the world.
Ditocoaf fucked around with this message at 03:12 on Oct 7, 2015 |
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Oct 7, 2015 03:10
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Sharkie posted:"we should ensure that those responsible are held accountable and face justice?" Do you think that someone should face murder charges for this?
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Oct 7, 2015 03:10
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Ditocoaf posted:I'm glad that we, and our military force which is the most most powerful in the world, are at least better than the Taliban. We're just a bit sloppy when furthering our goals in a region, and sometimes accidentally kill some civilians or bomb a hospital. It's a tragedy, but at least we aren't doing it on purpose. I'm sure we'll be more careful next time. We're a force for good in the world. You're being sarcastic but you aren't wrong.
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Oct 7, 2015 03:12
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Dead Reckoning posted:They didn't broadcast anything. You keep lying about this. All MSF claims is that "The bombing continued for more than 30 minutes after American and Afghan military officials in Kabul and Washington were first informed." If the U.S. military actually managed to get from a panicky phone call to Washington D.C. to a cease fire order issued to a specific aircraft in the middle of providing close air support over Afghanistan in 30 minutes, that's commendably fast. Also apparently communication in Afghanistan is no more complex than shouting across a room. Pack it up, Expeditionary Communications Squadrons, we've been paying you too much. Oh look at what you forgot to quote: quote:MSF wishes to clarify that all parties to the conflict, including in Kabul and Washington, were clearly informed of the precise location (GPS Coordinates) of the MSF facilities – hospital, guest-house, office and an outreach stabilization unit in Chardara (to the north-west of Kunduz). As MSF does in all conflict contexts, these precise locations were communicated to all parties on multiple occasions over the past months, including most recently on 29 September. Stereotype posted:Do you think that someone should face murder charges for this? Do you think that no one should face any charges for this?
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Oct 7, 2015 03:13
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zoux posted:Look, stuff happens. It isn't an objectively wrong assessment.
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Oct 7, 2015 03:13
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Stereotype posted:You're being sarcastic but you aren't wrong. I mean, the main thing in that post that I don't believe is "I'm sure we'll be more careful next time". We're not doing this on purpose, sure, but it's a systematic problem, and not one that's a priority of ours to fix. And that doesn't exactly give us much moral high ground. (I say "us" just because I think we should all feel a sliver of responsibility for our country's actions, I'm not trying to claim any sort of military insider knowledge or anything.) Ditocoaf fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Oct 7, 2015 |
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Oct 7, 2015 03:15
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Dead Reckoning posted:
Ceiling fan posted:In MSF doctrine and practice they liaise with local, direct combatants. They rather famously don't gently caress around with embassy desks. I don't doubt that they contacted SOC or COAC. I expect that they did. Granted, they probably didn't know how to contact the JTAC, but seriously, how the gently caress would they? On second thought, they could have, because they are good at making friends with people who aren't suppose to have friends. But that didn't happen in this case.
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Oct 7, 2015 03:15
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Buffer posted:There's no excuse for a military strike on a hospital. That doesn't seem like a very controversial statement, but here we are. Nope. Much like we have so many levels of bureaucracy that a huge financial meltdown based on widespread fraud can result in zero charges, as long as there are enough people between the bomb and the go ahead it turns out no one is at fault!
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Oct 7, 2015 03:15
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This is a really great shouting match between "I don't think American forces are literal Hitler-Nazi murder villains, and also complexity exists in the world" vs. "I don't think murdering doctors in hospitals is a good thing, and think there should be some mechanisms to prevent this from happening again." There are surely mutually incompatible opinions, and this holy war must continue forever, so we can feel slightly better about terrible things in the world by yelling at someone on the Internet about them, over and over again.
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Oct 7, 2015 03:16
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Sharkie posted:Oh look at what you forgot to quote: "Overworked, underpaid 20 year old thousands of miles from home in war a torn country sentenced to life in jail for fifteen murders because he was lazy with checking coordinates in the middle of the night"
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Oct 7, 2015 03:16
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I hate to criticize a clever thread title, but surely Henry Kissinger is the first to claim that honor?
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Oct 7, 2015 03:17
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Sharkie posted:Oh look at what you forgot to quote: Ceiling fan posted:In MSF doctrine and practice they liaise with local, direct combatants. They rather famously don't gently caress around with embassy desks. I don't doubt that they contacted SOC or COAC. I expect that they did. Granted, they probably didn't know how to contact the JTAC, but seriously, how the gently caress would they? On second thought, they could have, because they are good at making friends with people who aren't suppose to have friends. But that didn't happen in this case. Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 03:24 on Oct 7, 2015 |
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Oct 7, 2015 03:19
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Stereotype posted:"Overworked, underpaid 20 year old thousands of miles from home in war a torn country sentenced to life in jail for fifteen murders because he was lazy with checking coordinates in the middle of the night" Yeah and if I don't see a stopsign I'm still on the hook for killing the kid in the intersection.
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Oct 7, 2015 03:20
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Stereotype posted:"Overworked, underpaid 20 year old thousands of miles from home in war a torn country sentenced to life in jail for fifteen murders because he was lazy with checking coordinates in the middle of the night" So what if a drone operator crashes a few weddings here or there...
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Oct 7, 2015 03:21
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Stereotype posted:"Overworked, underpaid 20 year old thousands of miles from home in war a torn country sentenced to life in jail for fifteen murders because he was lazy with checking coordinates in the middle of the night" Haha..."Look it was just US military personnel being negligent, don't go all crazy talking about making the negligent people face accountability for their negligence." To answer your question, I'm not sure that murder is the precise charge the people responsible should face. Nor have I ever claimed that. Could you answer my question now? Do you think that no one should face any charges for this? Dead Reckoning posted:Still not a broadcast. Care to walk that back yet? Oh please, don't try to fishmech here, or pretend you don't know how language works. Care to walk back your implication that the military only had 30 minutes to process the information that it was a hospital? Sharkie fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Oct 7, 2015 |
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Oct 7, 2015 03:21
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berzerker posted:This is a really great shouting match between Probably the best post in pages.
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Oct 7, 2015 03:23
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The only real solution to the military loving up and occasionally killing innocents is to not go to war in the first loving place or at this point end it as quickly as possible. They can jail some idiot NCO and rework the process but it'll happen again. Related question. Can anyone relay to me a vision for what Afghanistan is supposed to look like when we finally pull out?
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Oct 7, 2015 03:23
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